Transmission of original/ancestral sin

Malleeboy

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I'm interested in both Catholic and Orthodox answers to how Adam's sin was passed on.

Catholic doctrines around the blessed Mary, seem to imply genetic transfer of sin. That is you get it from you parents. It appears to me as a non "Cathodox" Christian, that Catholics believe that blessed Mary had to be sinless so as not to pass sin onto Christ?

I have always held to "federal" view of Adam's sin from Rom 5:12. Adam as our human representative, chose sin and that impacted us, as we were represented by him and impacted by his choice. The effects of Adamic sin doesn't come from our parents but from Adam's headship of humanity. However Christ, being the 2nd person of the trinity, was not under Adam's headship, so Adam's sins effect was not transmitted to him.

Is standard Catholic position that sin is passed directly from our parents?
 

HTacianas

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I'm interested in both Catholic and Orthodox answers to how Adam's sin was passed on.

Catholic doctrines around the blessed Mary, seem to imply genetic transfer of sin. That is you get it from you parents. It appears to me as a non "Cathodox" Christian, that Catholics believe that blessed Mary had to be sinless so as not to pass sin onto Christ?

I have always held to "federal" view of Adam's sin from Rom 5:12. Adam as our human representative, chose sin and that impacted us, as we were represented by him and impacted by his choice. The effects of Adamic sin doesn't come from our parents but from Adam's headship of humanity. However Christ, being the 2nd person of the trinity, was not under Adam's headship, so Adam's sins effect was not transmitted to him.

Is standard Catholic position that sin is passed directly from our parents?

The Western view of original sin is influenced in large part by Augustine. In short, everyone inherits the guilt of Adam's sin. By default, everyone is born into condemnation. That idea leads to inconsistencies and when pressed, those who hold to it have to then back off and become even more inconsistent to explain it. The idea that everyone is born into condemnation leads to infants who die prior to baptism ending up in hell. That then leads to the idea of "limbo", some place between heaven and hell that infants and children end up in. The sinlessness of Mary has to be explained away by the Immaculate Conception, meaning that Mary was immaculately conceived and did not inherit the guilt of Adam. It goes on and on.

The Orthodox view is generally that we all inherit a propensity to sin. That propensity to sin leads to sin, but guilt is not imputed until a sin is committed. A propensity to sin can be described as temptation. We are all subject to temptation, but temptation itself does not mean guilt. But temptation leads to covetousness. To covet is to sin even when no act is committed. But there is no bright line between covetousness and lust.

I personally hold to the Orthodox view. It is more consistent and needs no further explanation.
 
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Paidiske

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My view is much more functional than ontological. That is, I would say that every human being is affected by a sinful world; that every person is born into a network of relationships which is already, to some extent, broken. That cannot help but impact on our development as we experience the lovelessness, joylessness, discord, and so on, of sinful human community; and so we perpetuate sinful patterns in our living and relating.

Christ, being fully God, was not impacted in the same way by those experiences and deficits.
 
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ViaCrucis

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My view is much more functional than ontological. That is, I would say that every human being is affected by a sinful world; that every person is born into a network of relationships which is already, to some extent, broken. That cannot help but impact on our development as we experience the lovelessness, joylessness, discord, and so on, of sinful human community; and so we perpetuate sinful patterns in our living and relating.

Christ, being fully God, was not impacted in the same way by those experiences and deficits.

I would agree with this. But it does, I think, still leave the lingering question of what lay behind the world being sinful, those relationships being sinful, etc. That there is a real dysfunction going on, one that can't simply be attributed to environment, but which lay in the core of each person.

I think the language of concupiscence addresses this. While I dislike the idea of sin being a kind of genetic inheritance; I do think to speak of our bearing the same dysfunctional and broken humanity of Adam does provide explanatory power to the questions of why our entire human enterprise in the world is fraught with dysfunction and sin. That is, we bring sin into the world, rather than merely being affected by sin out in the world (I say "merely" because I think there is a two-way relationship between ourselves and the world going on); we are ourselves an active and corrupting influence because at the heart of each and every one of us is something broken, dysfunctional--a deep and agonizing wound that can only be healed by God's gracious rescue and love.

"Inherited guilt" doesn't sound very good if we think of it as though we are held guilty simply because Adam sinned; but if it is understood not as a guilt-by-culpability for Adam's sin, but as a guilt of an already injured conscience before God. That is, it is the guilt of standing before God, naked, beholding God through the Law, and finding in myself that I am not in alignment with what is good. God is not actively wrathful, angry; rather I behold God's wrath on account of my own condition when faced with the seriousness of what is good and right: I should love my neighbor, but I don't. Thus the condemnation isn't that Adam sinned and I have to pay for it; but that I find in myself that same brokenness that was in Adam, and I need the healing that can only come from the Good Physician, and who alone can make me right with God. Restoring in me what is wounded, broken, and dysfunctional. That in Christ is the perfect Image of God, and in Christ God restores that Image in me, by giving me Christ's righteousness, and sanctifying me day by day, faithfully at work until He completes that work on the Last Day.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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rturner76

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I'm interested in both Catholic and Orthodox answers to how Adam's sin was passed on.

Catholic doctrines around the blessed Mary, seem to imply genetic transfer of sin. That is you get it from you parents. It appears to me as a non "Cathodox" Christian, that Catholics believe that blessed Mary had to be sinless so as not to pass sin onto Christ?

I have always held to "federal" view of Adam's sin from Rom 5:12. Adam as our human representative, chose sin and that impacted us, as we were represented by him and impacted by his choice. The effects of Adamic sin doesn't come from our parents but from Adam's headship of humanity. However Christ, being the 2nd person of the trinity, was not under Adam's headship, so Adam's sins effect was not transmitted to him.

Is standard Catholic position that sin is passed directly from our parents?
I think it's kind of what I have heard called "Ancestral Trauma" Our sins our passed on to our children through our behavior.
 
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Paidiske

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I would agree with this. But it does, I think, still leave the lingering question of what lay behind the world being sinful, those relationships being sinful, etc. That there is a real dysfunction going on, one that can't simply be attributed to environment, but which lay in the core of each person.

I think the language of concupiscence addresses this. While I dislike the idea of sin being a kind of genetic inheritance; I do think to speak of our bearing the same dysfunctional and broken humanity of Adam does provide explanatory power to the questions of why our entire human enterprise in the world is fraught with dysfunction and sin. That is, we bring sin into the world, rather than merely being affected by sin out in the world (I say "merely" because I think there is a two-way relationship between ourselves and the world going on); we are ourselves an active and corrupting influence because at the heart of each and every one of us is something broken, dysfunctional--a deep and agonizing wound that can only be healed by God's gracious rescue and love.

"Inherited guilt" doesn't sound very good if we think of it as though we are held guilty simply because Adam sinned; but if it is understood not as a guilt-by-culpability for Adam's sin, but as a guilt of an already injured conscience before God. That is, it is the guilt of standing before God, naked, beholding God through the Law, and finding in myself that I am not in alignment with what is good. God is not actively wrathful, angry; rather I behold God's wrath on account of my own condition when faced with the seriousness of what is good and right: I should love my neighbor, but I don't. Thus the condemnation isn't that Adam sinned and I have to pay for it; but that I find in myself that same brokenness that was in Adam, and I need the healing that can only come from the Good Physician, and who alone can make me right with God. Restoring in me what is wounded, broken, and dysfunctional. That in Christ is the perfect Image of God, and in Christ God restores that Image in me, by giving me Christ's righteousness, and sanctifying me day by day, faithfully at work until He completes that work on the Last Day.

-CryptoLutheran
I agree with everything you've said, and I think you've put it well; except that I don't think that the impact of a sinful and broken world on a developing person is too weak an explanation for what we experience. That is real dysfunction, that is enough to make us an actively sinful person etc. Epigenetic, rather than genetic, perhaps.
 
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fhansen

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In Catholicism, the "guilt" of OS doesn’t mean that we share in the guilt of committing the sin of Adam, but that we inherit or contract the state of injustice that he assumed, the disorder, the sin of being alienated from God, a state sometimes called the "death of the soul". This is the state we’re born into, lacking the "knowledge of God", which refers to more than head knowledge but to knowing Him. Man is made for communion with God and is lost, sick, dead when apart from Him. We’re “born dead” so to speak, in need of rebirth. We’re born in rebellion, carrying on the family tradition, not necessarily wanting to know Him, preferring ourselves and our way to Him as it's been said that Adam did, still battling with our own pride which is at the heart of our separation from Him, still experimenting with autonomy or “freedom” from Him. Jesus came to get us off that foolish and destructive nonsense, off of ourselves first above all else, and to turn us higher, towards the real God, the true source of all goodness. To the extent that we’re still attracted to other, lesser, created things above Him, we’re still beneath our purpose, concupiscence and the sin it tends towards still holds its sway; love is not yet perfected.

As others have said, the fact that moral evil (sin) exists in our world at all and that we all inevitably participate in it- even though God created no one to sin- means that we aren’t born into the position of innocence that Adam and Eve first enjoyed in Eden. We’re born compromised, with a weakness, a proclivity to sin, an innocence already lost; we're born with something missing. The Catholic church maintained that this phenomenon must pass down through human propagation, without claiming to know the details of how this occurs. Again, sin is an anomaly in creation; it’s to be outside of the will of God, out of sync with truth, with order, with justice. IMO God allowed Adam and his descendants to fall corporately so that we may taste of sin, within our world and within ourselves, and learn for ourselves to hate and shun it and finally to run back to the only one who can overcome it in us when He calls us by His grace. Here we literally know evil, and will hopefully turn from it as we begin to hunger and thirst for the true Good instead. And then He can work in us, causing us to love as He's shown us, causing us to understand and forgive the sin of others as we desire to draw them into that same love. Anyway, it's all within a larger plan- of patiently bringing His creation to perfection, producing something even greater than He began with, not without struggle .
 
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IoanC

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I will attempt an Orthodox Christian answer.

Sts. Adam and Eve disobeyed God's direct commandment in the Garden of Eden. Therefore, death and sin entered the world and affected all humans until today. Now, let's make it clear that we do no share the same exact historical sin as Sts. Adam and Eve, so we have nothing to do with being responsible for death and sin entering world. However, we share the same human nature as our protoparents; which means that all humans will sin anyway in certain conditions. But the situation is not as severe as to say that human nature itself is sinful. God regards human sin as an accident and illness that can be easily repaired and healed.
 
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PsaltiChrysostom

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To add a formal document for the EO side of things:

The Eastern Church, unlike its Western counterpart, never speaks of guilt being passed from Adam and Eve to their progeny, as did Augustine. Instead, it is posited that each person bears the guilt of his or her own sin. The question becomes, "What then is the inheritance of humanity from Adam and Eve if it is not guilt?" The Orthodox Fathers answer as one: death. (I Corinthians 15:21) "Man is born with the parasitic power of death within him," writes Fr. Romanides (2002, p. 161). Our nature, teaches Cyril of Alexandria, became "diseased...through the sin of one" (Migne, 1857-1866a). It is not guilt that is passed on, for the Orthodox fathers; it is a condition, a disease.

 
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Malleeboy

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Orthodox Posters,.

Death is passed done but how is death passed down?

Do we die because our parents passed death on to us?
Or because Adam as our head /leader chose that for us?
Or as some have said here that it imbibed through example? (Which I am uneasy with as it seems to be on the path to the position of a famous British theologian, we learn sin through a bad example, so we are saved from son by a good example in Christ)
 
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IoanC

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Orthodox Posters,.

Death is passed done but how is death passed down?

Do we die because our parents passed death on to us?
Or because Adam as our head /leader chose that for us?
Or as some have said here that it imbibed through example? (Which I am uneasy with as it seems to be on the path to the position of a famous British theologian, we learn sin through a bad example, so we are saved from son by a good example in Christ)
God cursed Sts. Adam and Eve and all of humanity after them. As such, all people are subject to death and sin. So, sin is passed through a curse willed by God.
 
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PsaltiChrysostom

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And in a sense, death is a mercy of God. If we were sinful and immortal, then we could never stop sinning.

St. Ambrose of Milan, writing after the death of his own brother in the fourth century said, "God did not
ordain death in the beginning of things: but He gave it to us as a remedy when that damnable sin brought
toil and tears into human life... Deathlessness is no blessing but only a weariness if grace does not
transfigure it."
 
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fhansen

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fjansen,

Thanks for your answer but my question is not what was passed but how it is passed?
Whatever you think we got from our forebears, how did it get applied or moved to us?
As I stated, the RCC came down on it being transmitted by propagation. It’s in the genes now, so to speak. Exactly how that occurs only God knows but in any case Adam lost the grace for humanity that is intrinsic to union with God, by refusing Him as God. That grace is restored as we, each of us individually, turn back to Him in faith, accepting Him as our God again. That reconciliation and subsequent restored fellowship is the reason Jesus came. Anyway, as physical death became the norm so did its counterpart, spiritual death, and both are done away with as we're redeemed.
 
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JoeT

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I'm interested in both Catholic and Orthodox answers to how Adam's sin was passed on.

Catholic doctrines around the blessed Mary, seem to imply genetic transfer of sin. That is you get it from you parents. It appears to me as a non "Cathodox" Christian, that Catholics believe that blessed Mary had to be sinless so as not to pass sin onto Christ?

I have always held to "federal" view of Adam's sin from Rom 5:12. Adam as our human representative, chose sin and that impacted us, as we were represented by him and impacted by his choice. The effects of Adamic sin doesn't come from our parents but from Adam's headship of humanity. However Christ, being the 2nd person of the trinity, was not under Adam's headship, so Adam's sins effect was not transmitted to him.

Is standard Catholic position that sin is passed directly from our parents?
Adam does not pass sin to his progeny. We don’t say “God made me do sin” through our creation or “heredity made me sin.” Sin is a voluntary immoral act of thought, word, or deed. Thus, the act of sin must be done willingly and with knowledge that the act is evil. Adam knew he sinned, so we know it was a disobedient act, you might say he protested the restrictions of eating fruit. As a result, Adam has guilt and is punished as are his progeny.

His punishment was the corruption of his body and the deprivation of his original justice. Privation of justice elicits disordered desire, hence the original sin The same justice and honor we receive in Baptism. “Justice is uprightness rectitude-of-will kept for its own sake.” [St. Anselm, On Truth, 12]. Continuing Anselm said, “Justice is not rightness of knowledge or rightness of action but is rightness of will.” [St. Anselm, On Truth, 12]. The will is contained in the intellect of man, thus ‘to will’ something is, by the definition, an act. As we are, Adam was free to act either in obedience or in disobedience. Prior to his original act of rebellion, Adam 'abides' in God. This abiding would have been more intense than abiding in Christ when partaking in the Eucharist. [Cf. John 6:57].

This corruption and deprivation are not passed on by heredity of the flesh but rather being a member of humanity.

"An individual can be considered either as an individual or as part of a whole, a member of a society . . . . Considered in the second way an act can be his although he has not done it himself, nor has it been done by his free will but by the rest of the society or by its head, the nation being considered as doing what the prince does. For a society is considered as a single man of whom the individuals are the different members (St. Paul, 1 Corinthians 12). Thus the multitude of men who receive their human nature from Adam is to be considered as a single community or rather as a single body . . . . If the man, whose privation of original justice is due to Adam, is considered as a private person, this privation is not his 'fault', for a fault is essentially voluntary. If, however, we consider him as a member of the family of Adam, as if all men were only one man, then his privation partakes of the nature of sin on account of its voluntary origin, which is the actual sin of Adam" (St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo, 4, 1).​

Hence, when our patriarch enters into war with God and reparations are demanded of all in the nation of man, whether or not a participant, pay the price. Consequently, we are deprived of original justice until we ‘get right’ with God, justification. Once more without justification all acts whether good or evil are avaricious.

So far, from Adam to Jesus Christ the nature of man remains unchanged, being created good. The Marian doctrines are no different, they do not change nature.

The focus of the Marian doctrines is Jesus Christ, not Mary. Christians understand Christ to be a person with the inexplicably union of nature of God and the nature of man, both without mixing mingling or confusion in one essence or hypostasis. So, we whatever is said of Jesus’ divinity can be said of His. Jesus is said to be just like us in every way except sin. [Hebrews 4:14]. Being like us then when God puts on flesh [John 1:14] in conception the same way as man and is begotten, not made, born of woman.

This woman then becomes the equivalent of the ark of Moses, and literally the ark of the New Covenant, Jesus. Immaculate conception pronounces that the woman that played this role in Christ’s life never knew sin, either original or actual sin. Her role becomes crucial in bringing us the One True Unblemished Lamb of God. Otherwise, our faith devolves into mysticism, the God/man becomes a pagan mystic. If one argues that Jesus Christ was a bubble baby, protected from His mother in the womb so as not to contact original sin transmitted by flesh, there is still the hurdle of being born of woman. We can make a phantom of Christ, putting on and taking off ‘flesh’ when ever He changes roles as Divine or human. Without an immaculate Mary one must imagine the Christ Child (who is without sin) nursing the paps of sin.

I'll deal with Federal Headship in another post if I get a chance, but simply put, it is wrong even by materialistic rules of Protestantism.

JoeT
 
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JoeT

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The problem with "Federal Headship" as used here is that it makes men the actual thing we call sin, man was created ‘good’. It stems from a deep-seated need to remove Mary from God's plan for our redemption. Conversely, we find Mary to be absolutely necessary to a true faith, for it is through her that we identify Christ to be a person who is a progeny of Adam. Christ is a member of the tribe of man. Mary’s role is twofold; she brings to us as man who is eternal Wisdom inseparably joined to mankind. We can’t love what we don’t know - know or forever be without love. Mary is how we separate Jesus Christ as a New Adam prior to the fall. [Proverbs 8:22; Wisdom 7:22 sqq.; Hebrews 1:2-3; John 1:1]. Also, Mary “magnifies the Lord” interceding for her children, the faithful of the church. She keeps before us the magnified light of the Lord.

Conversely the concept of "Federal Headship" Mary can bear a man who is sin, yet as some claim, is the Personification of the Word. Both the concept of sin hanging on a cross as reparations for the sins of man and the concept of the Personification of God's Breath within Christ as Theoandros (God/man) is an absurdity.

When the simple concept of sin being a voluntary act is acknowledged, you’ll find men can indeed 'work' in concert with God's will for Sanctification [John 17:19-20]. Baptism cannot be seen as removing the effect of Adam's disobedience as a change in man’s nature; it negates the concept of ‘Faith ALONE’. God's justice is a punishment of which is a physical death and death of the soul of all those born of Adam. He doesn’t re-make His creation into sin itself; rather he deprives him of His immediate presence.

Federal Headship implies that God judges us by our father. That is to say, God ‘inputs’ sin om children simply because they are prodigy Adam. If this were the case, then we wouldn’t owe our salvation to Jesus Christ but to our fathers. It also implies that God does not love; instead, he creates us evil then allows our fathers to pass on this evil through his flesh. The small problem with this is that we receive our flesh from our mothers, and we receive blood through the quickening of life, not from the father who only provides the ‘spark’ of life. Jesus Christ then is left with the unenviable task of simply covering our putrid sins by lottery so that the stench does not offend heaven. Federal Headship means we are condemned by proxy for the sins of our fathers, and by proxy we save our children by being just.

Clearly Scripture teaches that our sins are inherited through as membership in the clan of mankind, “For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.” [Psalm 50:12] My father and mother were created in the image of God, good.

If, however, sin was in man’s nature, then being born of woman, having only a Divine Father, He would still contract the sin of man because Christ bears the now evil flesh of woman - by the tenets of Federal Headship is evil because Mary had a natural mother and father. Hence, Federal Headship is a shame.

Federal Headship requires the “seed of man”; I never believed that men and women in antiquity where any less intelligent than we are today to believe that men carried children. Rather, they simply had a different focus on life and family and unlike today’s physical sciences seemed unimportant to them. Yet, they knew animal and plant husbandry as evidenced in Genesis 29-30 where Jacob manipulated the color of the sheep to win the hand of Rachel. However, to speak of “the seed of man” seemed rather naive to say the least, maybe even ignorant. That is until I read a piece by St. Thomas Aquinas describing who owned the child of a slave man or woman and while doing so describes the concept of “the seed of man”. People in antiquity, says St. Thomas, understood that conception was the “seed of man” entering into the womb was thought of as a seed planted in the field. Accordingly, the seed implanted itself into the soils of the womb (conceptualized as a 'field') as a way to explain the event of conception. In farming if a seed is planted on my land, the resulting crop is mine, whether or not that seed was mine - likewise the crop of children is my chattel if the child’s mother was my slave - after all she contains my 'field'. Consequently, if the seed is God's, then Christ rightly is not the Son of God but God's chattel ~ which I hope you would agree is simply wrongheaded. We are left then with reality, the seed, as in the real human world belongs to the woman even in Mary’s case; that is if you want reality to produce a human child. In this way the Son of God is the Son of Mary as God provided the “spark of life”, which is the only contribution of the male in the nature of men.

The Blessed event that occurred in Mary’s womb is a singular event conceiving; and without the “seed of man”. Human life starts at conception. The male role merely delivers the 'spark of life' - nothing more. This is the sole function of male. No genetic material remains with the mother's flesh. The 'spark' starts the generative division of cells forming the child from a single cell of the mother's flesh. Eventually a wholly individual rational being from a single-cell embryo is formed. The resulting life is indeed the flesh of its mother. The child's veins are filled with blood generated within him; there is no transfer of blood from the mother to the child.

The incarnate Christ, being wholly human as well as God, is begotten in this same way, thus not made, rather begotten. God provides the spark of life necessary to generate Life, that life being the Personification of His Wisdom (Jesus) perfectly joined with flesh of Mary. God and man are inexplicably joined in a perfect unity just as we will be joined in a perfect unity with God through a perfection of of our justification. As Christ is 'Life', the blood of the Christ Child is the blood of eternal Life. The Person of Christ found in Mary is filled with the living grace.

Science identifies fetomaternal cells trafficking in all childbearing women. The child’s cell carries DNA as it migrates through the walls of the womb lodging in the body of the mother. In some cases, these cells live for only months, in other cases several years, but like all human life these cells will eventually die. In a similar manner the fetomaternal microchimerism found in Mary would track Eternal Life through her body igniting a spiritual life wholly and completely blessing the mother. Unlike the cells of the human child having original sin doomed to corruption, the fetal chmerism of Christ is eternal, without corruption. We can easily see the physical parallel fetal chimerism cells of Christ as the DNA of divinity and will never die. The Mother of Life carried the Personification Life. They move through Mary's body and soul; her entire person is blessed as no other.

God spoke and creation came into being. The creator is Word and the "Word was with God, and the Word was God" [John 1:1]. We know this confounds evil, "And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." [John 1:5].

JoeT
 
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Christopher0121

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The Western view of original sin is influenced in large part by Augustine. In short, everyone inherits the guilt of Adam's sin. By default, everyone is born into condemnation. That idea leads to inconsistencies and when pressed, those who hold to it have to then back off and become even more inconsistent to explain it. The idea that everyone is born into condemnation leads to infants who die prior to baptism ending up in hell. That then leads to the idea of "limbo", some place between heaven and hell that infants and children end up in. The sinlessness of Mary has to be explained away by the Immaculate Conception, meaning that Mary was immaculately conceived and did not inherit the guilt of Adam. It goes on and on.

The Orthodox view is generally that we all inherit a propensity to sin. That propensity to sin leads to sin, but guilt is not imputed until a sin is committed. A propensity to sin can be described as temptation. We are all subject to temptation, but temptation itself does not mean guilt. But temptation leads to covetousness. To covet is to sin even when no act is committed. But there is no bright line between covetousness and lust.

I personally hold to the Orthodox view. It is more consistent and needs no further explanation.

I thought this post was interesting and I wanted to just share something in response.

As a Reformed Baptist, our confession addresses the death of the unborn, infants, or those who on account of profound disability cannot receive the outward preaching of the Gospel. It reads...

The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith
BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH

Of Effectual Calling

Chapter 10

PARAGRAPH 3

Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit;10 who works when, and where, and how He pleases;11 so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.



10 John 3:3,5–6
11 John 3:8

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With this in mind we can place the salvation of the unborn, infants, and the profoundly disabled in the hands of a loving God who saves sovereignly according to His will and purposes.
 
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