Transmission of original/ancestral sin

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Ok I get that but why was there a garden that Adam and Eve did not plant? Because they were gatherers and not farmers. They picked the fruit from the garden. It was Cain and Able the broke off into farming and herding. Cain's vegetables not being as well accepted as Ables meat offerings. Do you not think that it was a change from simply plucking fruit from the Garden of Eden? It's not a deception. Adam and Eve did not live in caves and wear animal skins like the later Europeans. The lived in caves, ate raw meat and wore animal skins a few thousand years after Adam and Eve.

There is a documentary that you might be interested called "The Search for Scientific Adam."

they found a piece of DNA that all men in the world share. It's passed down from father to son and every human male on Earth shares this particular strand of DNA. It turns out that Adam was a Bushman from East Africa. I'll not ry to convince you but if you have a spare 45 minutes, it might be worth your while. They speak the oldest language known to man and they are semi-naled hunters and gatherers. This strand of DNA can be traced from Africa to Mesopotamia to Eastern Europe to Europe and North America. Very interesting information that is based on hard empirical evidence.

I know it is a sort of trend to believe that the Bible is a book filled with science but it is based on stories passed down through the generations through oral tradition until humans learned to write. Give it a try if you can spare the time and tell me what you think.

The Scripture says that Adam was placed in the garden to maintain it. He also named all the animals, which was a serious and responsible job. The notion that early man were semi-naked hunters and gatherers is a fantasy based on guess work about how early man might have been. I guess you missed the Scripture reference where it says that God clothed Adam and Eve with animal skins.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Let me ask this question, if indeed there is no hope, then are we not doomed to our fate to occupy a rather hot seat in the lower regions. If we can choose to sin can we not we not choose to not sin. It sounds like a matter of poor choices to me.

The original justice accompanying Adam and Eve's creation was a moral quality or habit that perfectly joined their will to the enlightened understanding of the will of God. It was a state of being resulting from their creation. Adam and Eve possessed sanctifying grace with the beatific vision and other preternatural graces; they walked and talked to God in the Garden. Their graces inexplicably joined their cardinal virtues with the rights to an honorable prudence, temperance, and fortitude in all moral acts. These gifts were inheritable, had Adam not sinned we would have enjoyed the same God given honors given to Adam.

However, because of the fist sin we now inherited the guilt and punishment in our birth. Prior to Adam’s rebellion, it could be said Adam and Eve 'abide' in God, much as we are invited to abide in Christ in the Eucharist after Baptism [Cf. John 6:57]. The punishment of original sin is not an evil thing put into us, or a re-creation into sin (some call this sin nature), rather it is the withdrawal of God's presence and original justice that was held by patriarch of all men. It was something we would have rightly inherited as his progeny had it not been for Adam’s sin. Prior to the fall, Adam and Eve stood before God as a 'just' or 'righteous'. The original man and woman was created with a soul that was perfectly joined to the intellect and perfectly united with the will of God. The deprivation of justice finds its origins in Adam’s and Eve's sin through his act of revolutionary disobedience; it is our heritage.

God chose to re-establish His relationship with man through the New Eve who bore the New Covenant. The New Covenant gave us baptism in which we are sanctified in receiving a renewal, at least in part, of justice and honor in the eyes of God. My point is we can hope in our baptism in which we receive justification renewing, re-birthing, and perfecting. Ultimately, it is His will that we be right with Him.

JoeT

Again, if man's sinfulness was caused by Adam's disobedience and therefore has no choice but to sin, then they are not responsible for their sinfulness and therefore cannot be judged for sins that were a condition they didn't choose and cannot avoid. But the reality is that man chooses to sin because of the presence of sin and temptation from the devil. As soon as the person commits the first sin, they have broken the Law and therefore are dead in their trespasses and sins. One is innocent until the age of accountability is reached and they know right from wrong, therefore the first time the person does something he or she knows is wrong, they have broken God's Law. Sin is transgression against the Law, and breaking the Law means that the person has sided with the devil. This is the context where Jesus told the hypocritical Pharisees that their father was the devil.

 

[rturner76]

The Scripture says that Adam was placed in the garden to maintain it. He also named all the animals, which was a serious and responsible job. The notion that early man were semi-naked hunters and gatherers is a fantasy based on guess work about how early man might have been. I guess you missed the Scripture reference where it says that God clothed Adam and Eve with animal skins.

Yes, after they left the garden and became farmers and herders. In the garden, all of the vegetation was there before Adam was created. All they had to do was pick the fruit and they were naked until they ate from the three of the knowledge of good and evil and realized they were naked. They wore fig leaves on their privates, kind of sounds like a loin cloth. The garden was paradise. It wasn't until they left paradise that they needed clothing.

Also, it is a scientific fact that all men share a strand of DNA that can be traced back the the Bushmen in Africa. They also speak the oldest language known to man so.......

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes, after they left the garden and became farmers and herders. In the garden, all of the vegetation was there before Adam was created. All they had to do was pick the fruit and they were naked until they ate from the three of the knowledge of good and evil and realized they were naked. They wore fig leaves on their privates, kind of sounds like a loin cloth. The garden was paradise. It wasn't until they left paradise that they needed clothing.

Also, it is a scientific fact that all men share a strand of DNA that can be traced back the the Bushmen in Africa. They also speak the oldest language known to man so.......

Seeing that everyone except Noah and his family (8 people) perished in the Flood, then everyone since can be traced back to those 8 people. So, the bushmen from Africa could very well be a group who migrated from the separate families born of Noah's three sons and their wives, and even from Noah and his wife. So there is no contradiction between the science and the Scriptural account. According to the Scriptural record, everyone centred around where they built the Tower of Babel. When all the languages were made diverse, it was then that groups sharing their common language migrated to other parts of the world, including Africa.

 

[rturner76]

Seeing that everyone except Noah and his family (8 people) perished in the Flood, then everyone since can be traced back to those 8 people. So, the bushmen from Africa could very well be a group who migrated from the separate families born of Noah's three sons and their wives, and even from Noah and his wife. So there is no contradiction between the science and the Scriptural account. According to the Scriptural record, everyone centred around where they built the Tower of Babel. When all the languages were made diverse, it was then that groups sharing their common language migrated to other parts of the world, including Africa.

Somewhat true but the truth is all human being's DNA can be traced back to Africa. I know it can be an inconvenient fact that mankind was created first in Africa but people didn't travel to Africa, they traveled from Africa and the DNA bears that out.

 

[JoeT]

Again, if man's sinfulness was caused by Adam's disobedience and therefore has no choice but to sin, then they are not responsible for their sinfulness and therefore cannot be judged for sins that were a condition they didn't choose and cannot avoid.

That would be true if he had been made with the nature of sin. Obviously he wasn't, he walked with God, The original man was created with a soul that was perfectly joined to the intellect and united with the will of God. He overflowed with the knowledge of truth; where the intellect functioned in the light of God's will is disciples the lower appetites through reason alone. Instead Adam placed his will above God's.

But the reality is that man chooses to sin because of the presence of sin and temptation from the devil.

I'm almost afraid to ask this question, but how does sin make one sin? Adam chose disobedience because he thought he might become a god [Cf. Genesis 3:22].

As soon as the person commits the first sin, they have broken the Law and therefore are dead in their trespasses and sins.

Why yes, it is sin is death.

One is innocent until the age of accountability is reached and they know right from wrong, therefore the first time the person does something he or she knows is wrong, they have broken God's Law. Sin is transgression against the Law, and breaking the Law means that the person has sided with the devil. This is the context where Jesus told the hypocritical Pharisees that their father was the devil.

We are not discussing Adam's age of accountability, its not germane. With that being said, the 'age of accountability' comes from the definition of an act of sin. St. Thomas and St. Augustine defines sin as an immoral voluntary act of word, deed, or thought. If it is voluntary then one most know the law to transgress it. Hence a young individual can not sin unless he knows what is being done is evil. We are saved through Baptism wherein we receive justification. Without justification one can not enter the heaven. Hence we believe infants who die and young children who don't know God's love cannot enter heaven. Yet, we believe God will still care for them in a state of limbo, neither heaven nor hell.

Furthermore, in a state of mortal sin one removes himself from the kingdom of God and will not enter heaven, hence it is referred to as 'death'.

Let me suggest that Christ called the Pharisees hypocritical because they were indeed hypocrites.

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

Augustine's theology of Salvation is a heresy, and has caused unmeasurable harm to millions of innocent people ever since.

Augustine's views on salvation, justification, baptism, etc. are not heresy. What is harmful millions is the heretical views of Protestants.

JoeT

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Augustine's views on salvation, justification, baptism, etc. are not heresy. What is harmful millions is the heretical views of Protestants.

JoeT

Most of those views stem from Augustine's theology. Luther and Calvin adopted Augustine as their mentor, as did the RCC.

 

[JoeT]

Most of those views stem from Augustine's theology. Luther and Calvin adopted Augustine as their mentor, as did the RCC.

I don't know if I can say 'most', but a lot of Catholic theology comes from St. Thomas Aquinas. And yes, he did cite St. Augustine as well as many others. There doesn't seem to be evidence in Luther's writings that he followed Thomas Aquinas. Instead he would cite St. Augustine, usually out of context and with little understanding.

JoeT

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Again, if man's sinfulness was caused by Adam's disobedience and therefore has no choice but to sin, then they are not responsible for their sinfulness and therefore cannot be judged for sins that were a condition they didn't choose

Brilliant deduction

The bolded portion is exactly what Paul provides to us in 2 Cor 5:19

"that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation."

That is the very basis of being enabled, at least in part, to fulfill Romans 8:10-13

However there is always and only one component missing in all these various conversations about sin and its origins, and that is, oh horrors, the DEVIL.

All have sin is a foregone conclusion of Romans 3:9

What people have a very difficult time hearing and believing is that sin is in fact "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

In fact it's so difficult for a believer to actually confess this fact that most simply turn to lying hypocrisy, because of WHO? Yes, you see who won that game don't you?

 

[JoeT]

Brilliant deduction

The bolded portion is exactly what Paul provides to us in 2 Cor 5:19

"that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation."

That is the very basis of being enabled, at least in part, to fulfill Romans 8:10-13

However there is always and only one component missing in all these various conversations about sin and its origins, and that is, oh horrors, the DEVIL.

All have sin is a foregone conclusion of Romans 3:9

What people have a very difficult time hearing and believing is that sin is in fact "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

In fact it's so difficult for a believer to actually confess this fact that most simply turn to lying hypocrisy, because of WHO? Yes, you see who won that game don't you?

This is great! "The devil made me do it" and doesn't count against me - because I think or say, "I believe".

JoeT

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

This is great! "The devil made me do it" and doesn't count against me - because I think or say, "I believe".

JoeT

The devil did it and does it. No person changes that fact by any of their own decisions or actions

Paul nailed this on the head when he said when he did good, evil was in fact present with him. He even defined the sin indwelling him as "NO LONGER I" twice in Romans 7:17-21, admitting also therein that he did evil.

He nailed it again when he showed a "messenger of Satan" in his own flesh, 2 Cor 12:7

Nailed it again in Gal 4:14 showing temptation was in his flesh. What does the tempter do?

All of these things point directly to the fact that the devil sins in people, yes, even in Apostles, after salvation

Mark 4:15 is real for everyone other than God Himself