• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Transmission of original/ancestral sin

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
God cursed Sts. Adam and Eve and all of humanity after them. As such, all people are subject to death and sin. So, sin is passed through a curse willed by God.
If that is the case, there cannot be a day of judgment, because it is unjust and unfair to condemn people for sins committed by someone else. A person is saved or condemned for their own free choice to believe or reject the Gospel of Christ. This is what the Early Church taught for 300 years before Augustine. It was Augustine's heretical interpretation of the Latin version of Romans 5:12, instead of the original Greek. Original sin is a heresy that should be rejected.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
The Western view of original sin is influenced in large part by Augustine. In short, everyone inherits the guilt of Adam's sin. By default, everyone is born into condemnation. That idea leads to inconsistencies and when pressed, those who hold to it have to then back off and become even more inconsistent to explain it. The idea that everyone is born into condemnation leads to infants who die prior to baptism ending up in hell. That then leads to the idea of "limbo", some place between heaven and hell that infants and children end up in. The sinlessness of Mary has to be explained away by the Immaculate Conception, meaning that Mary was immaculately conceived and did not inherit the guilt of Adam. It goes on and on.

The Orthodox view is generally that we all inherit a propensity to sin. That propensity to sin leads to sin, but guilt is not imputed until a sin is committed. A propensity to sin can be described as temptation. We are all subject to temptation, but temptation itself does not mean guilt. But temptation leads to covetousness. To covet is to sin even when no act is committed. But there is no bright line between covetousness and lust.

I personally hold to the Orthodox view. It is more consistent and needs no further explanation.
Augustine's theology of Salvation is a heresy, and has caused unmeasurable harm to millions of innocent people ever since.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
My view is much more functional than ontological. That is, I would say that every human being is affected by a sinful world; that every person is born into a network of relationships which is already, to some extent, broken. That cannot help but impact on our development as we experience the lovelessness, joylessness, discord, and so on, of sinful human community; and so we perpetuate sinful patterns in our living and relating.

Christ, being fully God, was not impacted in the same way by those experiences and deficits.
The reason for the Virgin Birth was not to reverse the effects of ancestral sin. The sole reason was that God chose to involve Himself in His creation by becoming a God/man.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
I think it's kind of what I have heard called "Ancestral Trauma" Our sins our passed on to our children through our behavior.
Not true. The Scripture says that because a father eats sour grapes, the children's teeth should not be put on edge. I cannot be judged by my father's sins. Those outside of Christ will be judged according to their own sins.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
I agree with everything you've said, and I think you've put it well; except that I don't think that the impact of a sinful and broken world on a developing person is too weak an explanation for what we experience. That is real dysfunction, that is enough to make us an actively sinful person etc. Epigenetic, rather than genetic, perhaps.
Because sins are held to the person's account when they sin against their own conscience, in that they know that they are doing wrong when they sin, babies and infants before the age of accountancy can't be sinners because they don't know the difference between right and wrong. So, a baby or infant who dies will go to heaven. The doctrine that a baby or infant will go to hell because of the false doctrine of original sin, is a cruel doctrine that was never supported by the Early Church before Augustine.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Orthodox Posters,.

Death is passed done but how is death passed down?

Do we die because our parents passed death on to us?
Or because Adam as our head /leader chose that for us?
Or as some have said here that it imbibed through example? (Which I am uneasy with as it seems to be on the path to the position of a famous British theologian, we learn sin through a bad example, so we are saved from son by a good example in Christ)
Death resulted in Adam and Eve being ejected from the Garden of Eden, losing access to the Tree of Life. There was something about eating the fruit of the Tree of Life that stopped them from aging and eventually dying. Without having access to that Tree, Adam and Eve started aging and eventually died. Because we don't have access to the Tree of Life, we will age and die in the same way.
 
Upvote 0

JoeT

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2020
1,298
191
Southern U.S.
✟139,074.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
I'm interested in both Catholic and Orthodox answers to how Adam's sin was passed on.

Catholic doctrines around the blessed Mary, seem to imply genetic transfer of sin. That is you get it from you parents. It appears to me as a non "Cathodox" Christian, that Catholics believe that blessed Mary had to be sinless so as not to pass sin onto Christ?

I have always held to "federal" view of Adam's sin from Rom 5:12. Adam as our human representative, chose sin and that impacted us, as we were represented by him and impacted by his choice. The effects of Adamic sin doesn't come from our parents but from Adam's headship of humanity. However Christ, being the 2nd person of the trinity, was not under Adam's headship, so Adam's sins effect was not transmitted to him.

Is standard Catholic position that sin is passed directly from our parents?
Christ is like us in every way except for sin.

Federal Headship, as suggested here, makes man the actual thing we call sin, which of course we are not. As I have noted before, this creates a pernicious god. It stems from the desire to remove Mary from God's plan for our redemption. Christ must have an earthly mother to satisfy prophecy; the last I heard this requires a woman, Mary. With the concept of "Federal Headship" Mary can bear a man who is sin yet as the Calvinist claim is the Personification of the Word, a contradiction. The idea of sin hanging on a cross as reparations for the sins of man and the concept of the Personification of God's Breath within Christ as Theandric is an absurdity of types. The reformer then must remove Mary from God's plan to lead us into the wilderness of heresy and hell, because of their objection that Mary (a human) becomes God's instrument of our salvation.

This Calvinist error rests in a simple denial of sin and by extension the heresy of "once saved always saved". Sin, however, is a voluntary immoral act. When this simple concept is acknowledged then we find that men can 'work' in concert with God's will for Sanctification. God's justice is a punishment, a physical death and the death of the soul of all those born of Adam. He does not re-make His creation into sin itself; rather he deprives us of His justice and mercy.

Adam having fee will was one with God (oneness such as John 6:57 and John 17:21-22). Both Adam and Eve were made in the image and likeness of God, and they were one with God, i.e. spoke face to face with God. Whether Eden was a physical place on earth or a state of being is not important here. In either case, "God saw all the things that he had made, and they were very good."

What God had made was good. Sin does not re-make man evil. Rather it is the freewill of men, voluntarily acting in opposition to 'good'. As such we view original sin as the privation of sanctification, an abiding in God and God abiding in us. As I've written before Johann Eck exposes the converse for the heresy it is.

Original Sin is that men are born without the fear of God and without trust in God, is to be entirely rejected, since it is manifest to every Christian that to be without the fear of God and without trust in God is rather the actual guilt of an adult than the offense of a recently-born infant, which does not possess as yet the full use of reason, as the Lord says "Your children which had no knowledge between good and evil," Deut 1:39. (Johann Eck, The Confutatio Pontificia, 1530)​

More succinctly we see that guilt requires a voluntary act and that sin is an evil act,

“… sin is nothing else than a bad human act. Now that an act is a human act is due to its being voluntary, whether it be voluntary, as being elicited by the will, e.g. to will or to choose, or as being commanded by the will, e.g. the exterior actions of speech or operation. Again, a human act is evil through lacking conformity with its due measure: and conformity of measure in a thing depends on a rule, from which if that thing depart, it is incommensurate. Now there are two rules of the human will: one is proximate and homogeneous, viz. the human reason; the other is the first rule, viz. the eternal law, which is God's reason, so to speak. See Contra Faustum . xxii, 27 CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Faustum, Book XXII (Augustine), St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, I, II, 71,6​

Key to the point is punishment or merit for any act relies on that act being voluntary, i.e. "Now both justice and injustice, to be acts at all, must be voluntary; otherwise, there can be no just rewards or punishments; which no man in his senses will assert. (St. Augustine, Contra Faustum . xxii, 78) Adam's sin was a voluntary act for which God's justice brought death, physical and spiritual, i.e. the life leaves the physical body, and life (sanctification) leaves the soul. It is God's plan in the New Covenant through the first graces of Baptism that sanctification re-instills, as it were, drop by drop or bite by bite, the 'fullness of salvific grace' in man. In Baptism the punishment for the first sin of Adam is removed, there being no guilt in the individual because the sin committed by Adam was not a voluntary act of the individual. We can see through the lens of Baptism how the nature of original sin stains all of mankind. St. Thomas explains it best:

"An individual can be considered either as an individual or as part of a whole, a member of a society . . . . Considered in the second way an act can be his although he has not done it himself, nor has it been done by his free will but by the rest of the society or by its head, the nation being considered as doing what the prince does. For a society is considered as a single man of whom the individuals are the different members (St. Paul, 1 Corinthians 12). Thus the multitude of men who receive their human nature from Adam is to be considered as a single community or rather as a single body . . . . If the man, whose privation of original justice is due to Adam, is considered as a private person, this privation is not his 'fault', for a fault is essentially voluntary. If, however, we consider him as a member of the family of Adam, as if all men were only one man, then his privation partakes of the nature of sin on account of its voluntary origin, which is the actual sin of Adam" (De Malo, 4, 1).​

We can therefore conclude original sin is not 'transmitted', as it were, like a virus from male or female (one or both gender) to their offspring, both punishment and guilt handed down from generation to generation. Rather it is a condition of being a member of the human species after the fall of Adam. We use the term inherited only to explain that all of mankind after Adam's fall receives the effects of God's justice without the guilt whereby we receive from Adam a privation of sanctification. So, in this way, a child born, even from a process of cloning, is subject to original sin. Conversely, a child born whose Father is the Spirit of God and whose mother is a New Eve, one without the stain of sanctification's privation is a New Adam, a human like Adam in perfect union with God, i.e. Christ.

The concept of Federal Headship confounds God's plan for the salvation of men: it makes your god pernicious and sadistic putting Him opposition to His own creation.
 
Upvote 0

rturner76

Domine non-sum dignus
Site Supporter
May 10, 2011
11,529
4,029
Twin Cities
✟844,973.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
Not true. The Scripture says that because a father eats sour grapes, the children's teeth should not be put on edge. I cannot be judged by my father's sins. Those outside of Christ will be judged according to their own sins.
Maybe you can't be judged by your father's sins but sins of the father are often visited on the son, the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him".
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Maybe you can't be judged by your father's sins but sins of the father are often visited on the son, the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him".
Is there a Scripture that actually says that? Let's see the reference.
 
Upvote 0

rturner76

Domine non-sum dignus
Site Supporter
May 10, 2011
11,529
4,029
Twin Cities
✟844,973.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
Is there a Scripture that actually says that? Let's see the reference.
There are generational curses. Abusive Fathers have sons who often abuse. Many many sexual abusers were abused as children. It's not required by the Bible, just in life. But still:

“You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me” (Exodus 20:5).

“You shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them. For I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me, and doing mercy to thousands of those who love Me and keep My commandments” (Deuteronomy 5:9-10)

“Ah, Sovereign Lord, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you. You show love to thousands but bring the punishment for the parents’ sins into the laps of their children after them. Great and mighty God, whose name is the Lord Almighty” (Jeremiah 32:17-18).
 
Upvote 0

JoeT

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2020
1,298
191
Southern U.S.
✟139,074.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
If that is the case, there cannot be a day of judgment, because it is unjust and unfair to condemn people for sins committed by someone else. A person is saved or condemned for their own free choice to believe or reject the Gospel of Christ. This is what the Early Church taught for 300 years before Augustine. It was Augustine's heretical interpretation of the Latin version of Romans 5:12, instead of the original Greek. Original sin is a heresy that should be rejected.
God created mankind, not simply the individual Adam [Cf. Genesis 1:26]. As I stated in post 28 above, the punishment and guilt of original sin is a condition of being a member of the human species after the fall of Adam. The term inherited is used only to explain that all of mankind after Adam's fall receives the effects of God's justice without the guilt of the original act whereby we receive from Adam a privation of sanctification. So, in this way, a child born, even from a process of cloning, is subject to original sin.

The punishment of original sin is something lacking from the original justice that once belonged to the patriarch of all men and something we would have rightly inherited had it not been for one man’s sin. Prior to the fall, Adam stood before God as a just man. The original man was created with a soul that was perfectly joined to the intellect and perfectly united with the will of God, overflowing the knowledge of truth; the intellect functioned in the light of God's will disciplining the lower appetites through reason alone. However, because of his unjust act we bear the just punishment for the sin of one man.

What Adam lost for us was original justice. We become 'right with God' in 'Justification, "the sanctification of the whole being" [Cf. CCC 1995] is received in Baptism as an effect of grace, re-introducing man to the mercy of God, weakening the original privation of justice whereby a new man is 'born again' into the “rectitude of divine love”. [Cf. CCC 1991]. Simply, “Justice is not rightness of knowledge or rightness of action but is rightness of will.” [St. Anselm, On Truth, 12].

The way God punished man for a voluntary immoral deed was to remove His justice. The punishment for the original sin is a privation of an original justice Adam once held for himself and his progeny. No longer joined with the will of God, no longer receive the grace of the cardinal virtues, or the grace of justice having rights to honorable prudence, temperance, and fortitude in moral acts. Now mankind is hampered with disordered desires, concupiscence. Mankind was not re-made again nor was he originally mad evil.

JoeT
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
There are generational curses. Abusive Fathers have sons who often abuse. Many many sexual abusers were abused as children. It's not required by the Bible, just in life. But still:

“You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me” (Exodus 20:5).

“You shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them. For I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me, and doing mercy to thousands of those who love Me and keep My commandments” (Deuteronomy 5:9-10)

“Ah, Sovereign Lord, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you. You show love to thousands but bring the punishment for the parents’ sins into the laps of their children after them. Great and mighty God, whose name is the Lord Almighty” (Jeremiah 32:17-18).
Thanks for that. This is quite true for unconverted people. But when a person is born again of the Spirit of God, he becomes a new creations, free from any ancestral curses. But these ancestral curses are not original sin caused by some genetical corruption caused by Adam's sin.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
God created mankind, not simply the individual Adam [Cf. Genesis 1:26]. As I stated in post 28 above, the punishment and guilt of original sin is a condition of being a member of the human species after the fall of Adam. The term inherited is used only to explain that all of mankind after Adam's fall receives the effects of God's justice without the guilt of the original act whereby we receive from Adam a privation of sanctification. So, in this way, a child born, even from a process of cloning, is subject to original sin.

The punishment of original sin is something lacking from the original justice that once belonged to the patriarch of all men and something we would have rightly inherited had it not been for one man’s sin. Prior to the fall, Adam stood before God as a just man. The original man was created with a soul that was perfectly joined to the intellect and perfectly united with the will of God, overflowing the knowledge of truth; the intellect functioned in the light of God's will disciplining the lower appetites through reason alone. However, because of his unjust act we bear the just punishment for the sin of one man.

What Adam lost for us was original justice. We become 'right with God' in 'Justification, "the sanctification of the whole being" [Cf. CCC 1995] is received in Baptism as an effect of grace, re-introducing man to the mercy of God, weakening the original privation of justice whereby a new man is 'born again' into the “rectitude of divine love”. [Cf. CCC 1991]. Simply, “Justice is not rightness of knowledge or rightness of action but is rightness of will.” [St. Anselm, On Truth, 12].

The way God punished man for a voluntary immoral deed was to remove His justice. The punishment for the original sin is a privation of an original justice Adam once held for himself and his progeny. No longer joined with the will of God, no longer receive the grace of the cardinal virtues, or the grace of justice having rights to honorable prudence, temperance, and fortitude in moral acts. Now mankind is hampered with disordered desires, concupiscence. Mankind was not re-made again nor was he originally mad evil.

JoeT
Original sin is not mentioned at all by the earliest church fathers for the first 300 years of the church. It was Augustine through a misinterpretation of Romans 5:12 taken from Jerome's Latin Bible. The propensity for sin that happens when a child reaches the age of accountability is not caused by some genetical corruption caused by Adam's sin. If one's sinfulness is caused by a genetical corruption, then one could not come up for judgement, because they are not personally responsible for their sinfulness seeing that it was caused by Adam disobedience. But the reality is that the unconverted will come up for judgment because they will be judged on their own choice to sin. A person corrupted genetically by another's sin cannot be held responsible for their actions. God would be unfair and unjust to punish a person's sinfulness if they are genetically corrupted and had no choice to be able to do anything else except sin.
 
Upvote 0

JoeT

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2020
1,298
191
Southern U.S.
✟139,074.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Original sin is not mentioned at all by the earliest church fathers for the first 300 years of the church. It was Augustine through a misinterpretation of Romans 5:12 taken from Jerome's Latin Bible. The propensity for sin that happens when a child reaches the age of accountability is not caused by some genetical corruption caused by Adam's sin. If one's sinfulness is caused by a genetical corruption, then one could not come up for judgement, because they are not personally responsible for their sinfulness seeing that it was caused by Adam disobedience. But the reality is that the unconverted will come up for judgment because they will be judged on their own choice to sin. A person corrupted genetically by another's sin cannot be held responsible for their actions. God would be unfair and unjust to punish a person's sinfulness if they are genetically corrupted and had no choice to be able to do anything else except sin.
You are barking up the wrong tree, I don't think I mentioned "genetic corruption." If you have need to bark, then I would howl at the tribe of mankind. We see that God made the world, along with mankind, saying they were good [Cf. Genesis 1:31]. In stead let me suggest to you we become guilty through our human nature now deprived of God's original justice once meant for mankind evidenced in Adam.

How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.[CCC 404]​
If God had 're-made' man evil then He becomes the author of sin. It would seem to me your gods are pernicious

JoeT
 
Upvote 0

rturner76

Domine non-sum dignus
Site Supporter
May 10, 2011
11,529
4,029
Twin Cities
✟844,973.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
Thanks for that. This is quite true for unconverted people. But when a person is born again of the Spirit of God, he becomes a new creations, free from any ancestral curses. But these ancestral curses are not original sin caused by some genetical corruption caused by Adam's sin.
I can agree with that. It's just that Eve was the first person to bring sin to the world is all and Adam had to work by the sweat of his brown by allowing Eve to temp him.

personally, I think it may be a metaphor for when we ran around naked as hunters and gatherers and moved into farming and hearing and then developing more communal laws about decency etc. That's not Biblical, just something I wonder about
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
You are barking up the wrong tree, I don't think I mentioned "genetic corruption." If you have need to bark, then I would howl at the tribe of mankind. We see that God made the world, along with mankind, saying they were good [Cf. Genesis 1:31]. In stead let me suggest to you we become guilty through our human nature now deprived of God's original justice once meant for mankind evidenced in Adam.

How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.[CCC 404]​
If God had 're-made' man evil then He becomes the author of sin. It would seem to me your gods are pernicious

JoeT
The point I am making is that man is responsible for the sins he commits, not a condition caused by Adam of which man is helpless. If man is made helpless because of something that Adam caused, then God cannot bring man to judgement, because it would be unjust to condemn people for a sin that another person has committed. This means then that when a person reaches the age of accountability, they choose to sin of their own accord, and it is those sins that they are judged for, unless the person turns to Christ and is born again of the Spirit of God.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
I can agree with that. It's just that Eve was the first person to bring sin to the world is all and Adam had to work by the sweat of his brown by allowing Eve to temp him.

personally, I think it may be a metaphor for when we ran around naked as hunters and gatherers and moved into farming and hearing and then developing more communal laws about decency etc. That's not Biblical, just something I wonder about
Man was civilized right from the beginning. The Genesis account shows that they lived in ordered communities and founded cities. The idea that people started as cavemen and slowly became civilized, is a fiction dreamed up by those who choose to ignore the Bible in preference to some kind of alternative that ignores God's involvement in the development of man.
 
Upvote 0

rturner76

Domine non-sum dignus
Site Supporter
May 10, 2011
11,529
4,029
Twin Cities
✟844,973.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
Man was civilized right from the beginning. The Genesis account shows that they lived in ordered communities and founded cities. The idea that people started as cavemen and slowly became civilized, is a fiction dreamed up by those who choose to ignore the Bible in preference to some kind of alternative that ignores God's involvement in the development of man.
Ok I get that but why was there a garden that Adam and Eve did not plant? Because they were gatherers and not farmers. They picked the fruit from the garden. It was Cain and Able the broke off into farming and herding. Cain's vegetables not being as well accepted as Ables meat offerings. Do you not think that it was a change from simply plucking fruit from the Garden of Eden? It's not a deception. Adam and Eve did not live in caves and wear animal skins like the later Europeans. The lived in caves, ate raw meat and wore animal skins a few thousand years after Adam and Eve.

There is a documentary that you might be interested called "The Search for Scientific Adam."

they found a piece of DNA that all men in the world share. It's passed down from father to son and every human male on Earth shares this particular strand of DNA. It turns out that Adam was a Bushman from East Africa. I'll not ry to convince you but if you have a spare 45 minutes, it might be worth your while. They speak the oldest language known to man and they are semi-naled hunters and gatherers. This strand of DNA can be traced from Africa to Mesopotamia to Eastern Europe to Europe and North America. Very interesting information that is based on hard empirical evidence.

I know it is a sort of trend to believe that the Bible is a book filled with science but it is based on stories passed down through the generations through oral tradition until humans learned to write. Give it a try if you can spare the time and tell me what you think.
 
Upvote 0

JoeT

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2020
1,298
191
Southern U.S.
✟139,074.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
The point I am making is that man is responsible for the sins he commits, not a condition caused by Adam of which man is helpless. If man is made helpless because of something that Adam caused, then God cannot bring man to judgement, because it would be unjust to condemn people for a sin that another person has committed. This means then that when a person reaches the age of accountability, they choose to sin of their own accord, and it is those sins that they are judged for, unless the person turns to Christ and is born again of the Spirit of God.
Let me ask this question, if indeed there is no hope, then are we not doomed to our fate to occupy a rather hot seat in the lower regions. If we can choose to sin can we not we not choose to not sin. It sounds like a matter of poor choices to me.

The original justice accompanying Adam and Eve's creation was a moral quality or habit that perfectly joined their will to the enlightened understanding of the will of God. It was a state of being resulting from their creation. Adam and Eve possessed sanctifying grace with the beatific vision and other preternatural graces; they walked and talked to God in the Garden. Their graces inexplicably joined their cardinal virtues with the rights to an honorable prudence, temperance, and fortitude in all moral acts. These gifts were inheritable, had Adam not sinned we would have enjoyed the same God given honors given to Adam.

However, because of the fist sin we now inherited the guilt and punishment in our birth. Prior to Adam’s rebellion, it could be said Adam and Eve 'abide' in God, much as we are invited to abide in Christ in the Eucharist after Baptism [Cf. John 6:57]. The punishment of original sin is not an evil thing put into us, or a re-creation into sin (some call this sin nature), rather it is the withdrawal of God's presence and original justice that was held by patriarch of all men. It was something we would have rightly inherited as his progeny had it not been for Adam’s sin. Prior to the fall, Adam and Eve stood before God as a 'just' or 'righteous'. The original man and woman was created with a soul that was perfectly joined to the intellect and perfectly united with the will of God. The deprivation of justice finds its origins in Adam’s and Eve's sin through his act of revolutionary disobedience; it is our heritage.

God chose to re-establish His relationship with man through the New Eve who bore the New Covenant. The New Covenant gave us baptism in which we are sanctified in receiving a renewal, at least in part, of justice and honor in the eyes of God. My point is we can hope in our baptism in which we receive justification renewing, re-birthing, and perfecting. Ultimately, it is His will that we be right with Him.

JoeT
 
Upvote 0