Transhumanism

[TLK Valentine]

Or both. History was once considered literature, you know.

I know -- and I know how common it is to confuse one for the other.

 

[TLK Valentine]

What have I said that is either baseles speculation or wishful thinking?!...

Let's start with the stone mason bit...

 

[Ygrene Imref]

If there is no free will, then there is no accountability. My actions mean nothing to me because I didn't choose to do them.



Which means that everything Satan does is actually God pulling the strings.




And well He should -- as He causes them all.




God sets the fire, then sets the conditions to put it out.



So you say.... or is it so God says through you?



The alternative is being slaves to the Narrative... characters in a story whose only purpose is to serve as an example to later generations.

This is still a conclusion of duality - either we have free will, or we have no will at all.

It is not "either or," all creatures have a measure of will as I explicitly and verbosely explained above.

You are still responsible for your actions, because you have the capacity to choose how to respond to outside ad internal stimuli. If someone slaps you, you do not have to kill them. You have a choice in how to react to that situation.

You are not a marionette - that is another lie (just like duality) to make you throw your hands up and say, "God made me do it." That is asinine as "the devil made me do it."

Limited will is the best phrase for what we have. And, the point is not to control this world for your own sake, because the point that of "creation" is not physically based. Life as you may know it is a spiritual projection.

It is understandable why you have taken the traditional skeptical route of understanding and identifying the essential it of God wit respect to our responsibikity, and will. Not even the Church reconciles this, and many believe we DO have 100% free will. So, it is culturally ingrained in you to confront THAT "truth," think about it, and then draw the conclusion you draw.

I am saying your entire foundation (i.e. free will or nothing) is flawed. Go look in the bible and tell me where God says we have 100% free will. Then, look in the bible and tell me where God says we have NO free will, and we are absolute slaves absolutely. Then, go in the bible aND look at the examples of choice, and see what God said about responsibility. (These questions are quasi-rhetorical, but you should still find out for yourself.)

Even in the Apocryphal library, there no insinuation that we have 100% free will, and nowhere does it intimate that any of us have no will. If you believe we have no will, and that the programming for all of us is written (as opposed to responsive strings based on our choices,) then you are missing a large point in Christianity in general: God IS IN CONTROL.

But, His control does not absolve you of the responsibikity of your actions. Just because you know the future of someone doesn't mean they are absolved of the responsibiliy of their choices. The two are non-sequitur.

Even Christ did not have 100% free will - He did the complete will of His Father. He could have destroyed Rome in a blink; He decided to be delivered to death for us. He is the archetype of the perfect human - correctly reconciling His limited choice to respond to events and stimuli with the will of God.

If you think we have no choice in anything, then Christ's sacrifice is neither a sacrifice, nor is it a gesture to bring salvation to us. In other words, Christ is useless - because why else would He let Himself be tortured to death if we are all rigid code? Why else would He say "IF You Do..." something if none of us are responsible for our hard-coded actions? That means Christ is a liar; it doesn't matter what you do since everyone is already coded for a location.

Why is there a judgment if we are all FULLY predestined?

Why was hell made for the angels as a judgment (hell was NOT made for us)?

Why would Christ even come down from Heaven to do what He did?

If this is what you are saying (because, these are the implications,) then that is your prerogative. But, let's just make sure you know what you are saying.

There is no free will, but there is limited will that charges us with responsibility for our actions. And the contrapositive is true: there is no full predestination that negates your responsibility for your actions.

 

[TLK Valentine]

This is still a conclusion of duality - either we have free will, or we have no will at all.

It is not "either or," all creatures have a measure of will as I explicitly and verbosely explained above.

You are still responsible for your actions, because you have the capacity to choose how to respond to outside ad internal stimuli. If someone slaps you, you do not have to kill them. You have a choice in how to react to that situation.

But God has pulled the strings knowing I would react in the ways He chooses.

You are not a marionette - that is another lie (just like duality) to make you throw your hands up and say, "God made me do it." That is asinine as "the devil made me do it."

God puts a rat in a maze He Himself has built... can the rat truly say it chose the maze?

Limited will is the best phrase for what we have. And, the point is not to control this world for your own sake, because the point that of "creation" is not physically based. Life as you may know it is a spiritual projection.

Now that's duality -- physical = bad; spiritual = good.

It is understandable why you have taken the traditional skeptical route of understanding and identifying the essential it of God wit respect to our responsibikity, and will. Not even the Church reconciles this, and many believe we DO have 100% free will. So, it is culturally ingrained in you to confront THAT "truth," think about it, and then draw the conclusion you draw.

Of course I'm skeptical -- under your theology, God has manipulated your entire life, down to the minute details, providing the right stimuli knowing you'd respond as He willed, to turn you into a walking object lesson. Everything you've ever done or been, according to you, has been to be a "don't let this happen to you" message to future generations.

I am saying your entire foundation (i.e. free will or nothing) is flawed. Go look in the bible and tell me where God says we have 100% free will. Then, look in the bible and tell me where God says we have NO free will, and we are absolute slaves absolutely. Then, go in the bible aND look at the examples of choice, and see what God said about responsibility. (These questions are quasi-rhetorical, but you should still find out for yourself.)

Sounds like God manipulates our lives, and then punishes/rewards based on the inevitable responses which He specifically engineered.

Even in the Apocryphal library, there no insinuation that we have 100% free will, and nowhere does it intimate that any of us have no will. If you believe we have no will, and that the programming for all of us is written (as opposed to responsive strings based on our choices,) then you are missing a large point in Christianity in general: God IS IN CONTROL.

My point exactly -- GOD IS IN CONTROL.

But, His control does not absolve you of the responsibikity of your actions. Just because you know the future of someone doesn't mean they are absolved of the responsibiliy of their choices. The two are non-sequitur.

We're not talking about knowing the future, we're talking about arranging it.

Even Christ did not have 100% free will - He did the complete will of His Father. He could have destroyed Rome in a blink; He decided to be delivered to death for us.

Sounds like a choice to me. He chose to do the will of His Father -- no difficult task, considering he was His Father... at least according to John 10:30. Your milage may vary.

He is the archetype of the perfect human - correctly reconciling His limited choice to respond to events and stimuli with the will of God.[/QUOTE]

But if Jesus was a normal human, God would've already known exactly what his limited choice would be... and would have arranged the stimuli accordingly.

After all, it's not as though it were possible for any of us to act contrary to His Will... God cannot be blindsided.

If you think we have no choice in anything, then Christ's sacrifice is neither a sacrifice, nor is it a gesture to bring salvation to us.

Ah, but I do have a choice -- because I choose not to think that God is pulling the strings for His own benefit.

In other words, Christ is useless - because why else would He let Himself be tortured to death if we are all rigid code?

Why indeed go through the whole metaphysical melodrama? Why was a sacrifice part of the show in the first place?

Why else would He say "IF You Do..." something if none of us are responsible for our hard-coded actions? That means Christ is a liar; it doesn't matter what you do since everyone is already coded for a location.

Why is there a judgment if we are all FULLY predestined?

Because the illusion of choice keeps people in line. Your life is controlled so rigidly that you must behave in a certain manner. The trap has been baited and set... and you will walk into it; it's inevitable. But you still need to think it's not there.

Why was hell made for the angels as a judgment (hell was NOT made for us)?

Not made for us? God was forced to improvise, then?

Why would Christ even come down from Heaven to do what He did?

Why indeed? What purpose does the melodrama serve?

If this is what you are saying (because, these are the implications,) then that is your prerogative. But, let's just make sure you know what you are saying.

There is no free will, but there is limited will that charges us with responsibility for our actions. And the contrapositive is true: there is no full predestination that negates your responsibility for your actions.

The error in your analysis is that you think I consider us to be mindless robots following a code. It would be more accurate to see yourself as a dog being pulled along on a choke chain... of course, you can either pretend the chain isn't there, or learn to love it.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

But God has pulled the strings knowing I would react in the ways He chooses.



God puts a rat in a maze He Himself has built... can the rat truly say it chose the maze?



Now that's duality -- physical = bad; spiritual = good.



Of course I'm skeptical -- under your theology, God has manipulated your entire life, down to the minute details, providing the right stimuli knowing you'd respond as He willed, to turn you into a walking object lesson. Everything you've ever done or been, according to you, has been to be a "don't let this happen to you" message to future generations.



Sounds like God manipulates our lives, and then punishes/rewards based on the inevitable responses which He specifically engineered.



My point exactly -- GOD IS IN CONTROL.



We're not talking about knowing the future, we're talking about arranging it.



Sounds like a choice to me. He chose to do the will of His Father -- no difficult task, considering he was His Father... at least according to John 10:30. Your milage may vary.

He is the archetype of the perfect human - correctly reconciling His limited choice to respond to events and stimuli with the will of God.

But if Jesus was a normal human, God would've already known exactly what his limited choice would be... and would have arranged the stimuli accordingly.

After all, it's not as though it were possible for any of us to act contrary to His Will... God cannot be blindsided.



Ah, but I do have a choice -- because I choose not to think that God is pulling the strings for His own benefit.



Why indeed go through the whole metaphysical melodrama? Why was a sacrifice part of the show in the first place?



Because the illusion of choice keeps people in line. Your life is controlled so rigidly that you must behave in a certain manner. The trap has been baited and set... and you will walk into it; it's inevitable. But you still need to think it's not there.



Not made for us? God was forced to improvise, then?



Why indeed? What purpose does the melodrama serve?



The error in your analysis is that you think I consider us to be mindless robots following a code. It would be more accurate to see yourself as a dog being pulled along on a choke chain... of course, you can either pretend the chain isn't there, or learn to love it.

Hypothetical: So, what would you do if someone put a gun to your head and said, "slaughter your child, your mother, or your friend", what would you do? What choice do you have?

 

[Ygrene Imref]

But God has pulled the strings knowing I would react in the ways He chooses.

Again, just because you know the future does not mean anyone is absolved of their own responsibility for their own actions.

God isn't pulling strings; we are not marionettes. If you want to place blame, put it on Adam and Eve. They were made like gods, and they chose to abdicate that for the lie of duality, ascension, and that God did not have their best interest - hiding things from them.

Now, humanity is upset they lost their glory, and blame God for the TRAP our matriarch and patriarch set in motion.

God puts a rat in a maze He Himself has built... can the rat truly say it chose the maze?

Right. This seems to be a common notion amongst atheists and agnostics - even believers. We WERE created in His image, but we lost that.

Now, we no longer have dominion, and because we are corrupt, God binds our actions. Actions - not thoughts, intent, and choice. The New Covenant guarantees that our thought and intent are first considered, before we even do something. Spiritual first, then physical.

It isn't a rat race; that is another lie. What is going on right now is a consequence of a fallen race that has affected the entire planet the race was supposed to rule over. Do you think God is going to let us do what we want to do, whenever, wherever?

Nevertheless, despite our ability to execute out will - we still have will. It is limited in action, but you can house intents and make choices based on your stimuli and activity. And, even those choices and intentions are judged (despite not being able to execute them.) Remember, if you even think about lusting after a woman you have already committed adultery - that is regardless of whether or not you can actually SLEEP with her. Your will is to cheat; you may or may not have the authority/latitude to execute your will in action.

This is a spiritual situation, not carnality.

Now that's duality -- physical = bad; spiritual = good.

I said exactly what I meant - which is NOT "physical = bad; spiritual = good."

Of course I'm skeptical -- under your theology, God has manipulated your entire life, down to the minute details, providing the right stimuli knowing you'd respond as He willed, to turn you into a walking object lesson. Everything you've ever done or been, according to you, has been to be a "don't let this happen to you" message to future generations.

When did I ever say this? Or, is this what you inferred? I said exactly what I meant, and that is NOT "my theology." I have no theology, in fact I don't even have a denomination for which "theology" should be shared, or interpreted.

Sounds like God manipulates our lives, and then punishes/rewards based on the inevitable responses which He specifically engineered.

I know that is what it sounds like, because that argument has been used since Genesis 3. But, it isn't the Truth.

Knowing the future, and the complete evolution of every single event does not excuse anyone from their actions or intent to act. It is as simple as that.

When has precognition ever made a criminal innocent of his or her crimes s/he ultimately commits? Do you know how many mathematical and philosophical paradoxes address this? But, it is an attractive notion: to say that God knew everything and created everything, therefore "I" am not in control of my life.

Try using that defense in a CARNAL court of law, let alone at spiritual judgment.

My point exactly -- GOD IS IN CONTROL.

You are having trouble separating control over activity with a lack of will - erroneously leading to the conclusion that since God is in control, you aren't responsible for your choices or intent. God IS in control. So what?

It neither obliterate your responsibility, nor does it suggest that you are a slave to a source code. As I said, strings are made in that code reacting to the intent and choices you make. God knows this, but he doesn't erase the code and rewrite it. He naturally compensates for changes in the system. It is tantamount to a boundary value problem with specific parameters, domain, boundary and initial conditions. Those problems can still evolve over time, or space despite being bounded by conditions. Your intent and choices are the "domain," and in that "domain" exists both good and bad, and your ability to judge it and make a decision for yourself. The boundary conditions work WITHIN the domain; they do not erase or define the domain. In fact they work around the domain - not against it.

So, you have the capacity to do, think and choose good and/or evil, but you ARE bounded by certain conditions (i.e. you don't have the power to undo creation, or even to ascend - yet.)

We're not talking about knowing the future, we're talking about arranging it.

It doesn't matter, both are tangential to your domain of choice, intent and action. You have the limited will to bring action, choice and intent to your reality based on boundaries ready set up. That does NOT equate to intellectual, spiritual or carnal slavery, as it were, preventing both the heart of the person AND absolving responsibility.

Sounds like a choice to me. He chose to do the will of His Father -- no difficult task, considering he was His Father... at least according to John 10:30. Your milage may vary.

Limited will does not mean you have no choice: you need to understand this distinction. Christ could have defied God whenever He wanted to. In fact, it wasn't until he was 26 until the Holy Spirit fully descended onto Him. To recall the "boundary value problem," Christ reached a "holy saturation point" at that age such that His "BVP evolution" of holiness is asymptotic. In other words, He reached the point of irreversible perfection. That is due to the paradox of His nature as the Word of God to categorically reach that saturation point. For us, that asymptotic point is called "Sanctification."

But if Jesus was a normal human, God would've already known exactly what his limited choice would be... and would have arranged the stimuli accordingly.

Again, the INITIAL CONDITIONS were set up, and the boundary conditions were set up by God. Neither of these absolved Christ of His responsibility - should he have sinned.

The "arrangement" you speak of is a misnomer - unless you believe God is the author of mathematical chaos (whose initial conditions mostly drive the entire system.)

Once more, just because He knew the future doesn't absolve Christ of his responsibilities. The two need to be psychologically separated, or at least understood as what it: a solvable and understandable paradox (if that makes people more comfortable.)

After all, it's not as though it were possible for any of us to act contrary to His Will... God cannot be blindsided.

Now you are confusing His will with His action, boundaries He set up for us, our own limited will, and our responsibility - in an attempt to show that we are marionettes at His whim.

More dangerously, you are mixing up will with power and execution. Will in Hebrew (lebab) means "intent," or the "heart." It is God''s intent all of us are saved; His knowledge and sight reconcile this will NOT happen - which is why we have PROPHECY about antichrists, sinners and people who think they are Christian.

Likewise you still have the ability to "INTEND" to do something. CHRIST said your HEART can condemn you based on your alignment. That doesn't mean you will, can or did something to physically substantiate your [limited] will/intent. And, you are still responsible for your intentions.

Ah, but I do have a choice -- because I choose not to think that God is pulling the strings for His own benefit.

Right. That is your prerogative. It doesn't make it true.

Why indeed go through the whole metaphysical melodrama? Why was a sacrifice part of the show in the first place?

There is no melodrama; there was no exaggerstion or "pomp and circumstance." It is straight forward; the answer is clear in the canon and apocrypha. This is especially true for the reason for the sacrifice: it is for our benefit - a perturbative correction for the added term of SIN in the equation of our life. Without salvation, the equation drives toward total degeneracy for us. (As I said before, there are "coupling constants" and parameters of life that are consequences of the initial and boundary conditions.)

Because the illusion of choice keeps people in line.

No, it is FEAR and LIES, IGNORANCE and DISDAIN that keep people ENTRAPPED. There is no illusion of choice; the illusion is in believing you are a puppet contrilled by a malevolent god. The god you are describing could be one of several scores of magistrates that fell themselves, desperately trying to skew humanity toward hell with them - by making confusion, lies and hell look attractive.

Your life is controlled so rigidly that you must behave in a certain manner. The trap has been baited and set... and you will walk into it; it's inevitable. But you still need to think it's not there.

Right. I used to think that also when I was an atheist, and then agnostic and then "Christian," and then when I went back to agnosticism. Eventually, I realized through a scholastic, philosophical and spiritual arsenal that the lie is that this is a big "soul trap" creation in which we have absolutely no control over the trajectories of our lives.

And you thinking as you do is a portion of your limited will: and you are still responsible for that decision just like I am responsible for mine.

Not made for us? God was forced to improvise, then?

Nope, hell was not made for any of His children, but then a disobedient child needs to be disciplined, right?

Also, it seems many people desperately want to go to hell - whether out of ignorance, apathy, or downright disdain for who they "think" is God (a choice they are still responsible for.)

Why indeed? What purpose does the melodrama serve?

The answer is clear in the canon, and the apocryphal library.

The error in your analysis is that you think I consider us to be mindless robots following a code.

Well, what do you think? You haven't said that explicitly, but it sounds like your argument. So if it isn't what you think, then perhaps I am in error.

It would be more accurate to see yourself as a dog being pulled along on a choke chain... of course, you can either pretend the chain isn't there, or learn to love it.

Ah, semantics with subtle movements of posts.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Hypothetical: So, what would you do if someone put a gun to your head and said, "slaughter your child, your mother, or your friend", what would you do? What choice do you have?

An even easier hypothetical: you have a gun to your head, and you must exhaust the life savings of your mother, or me (i.e. another person who you don't know, and/perhaps don't care to know.)

What would be your choice? (I won't be offended either way; this is a thought experiment.)

In fact, anyone can answer (short of the point of derailment) to highlight the philosophy of this hypothetical.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

What do the previous posts have to do with transhumanism (for the OP)?

Well, we need to address the dynamics of limited will, perceived will, intentions and forward motion in psychology before we understand the implications of transhumanism.

If you think the cosmos are all an illusion (quantifiable, but imaginary), as opposed to a projection of a dimension/spirit/mind & intent/etc. (which is quantifiable and real,) then personal reconciliation with paradigms like transhumanism will either work out to be an inevitable, uncontrollable activity, a choice (of intent) that could be made by the individual, or something in between (which is where problems in the philosophy of transhumanism arise.)

 

[just a believing guy]

Let's start with the stone mason bit...

Why is this ''bit'' bothering you?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Hypothetical: So, what would you do if someone put a gun to your head and said, "slaughter your child, your mother, or your friend", what would you do? What choice do you have?

Well, that's the big question, isn't it? Is a choice made under duress really a choice?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Why is this ''bit'' bothering you?

Perhaps you're unaware, but it flatly contradicts the Bible -- now normally that wouldn't bother me, except you have no basis for pulling this out of your hat.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Again, just because you know the future does not mean anyone is absolved of their own responsibility for their own actions.[

Even the actions I cause?

I put a glass of poison on the table and tell you it's lemonade. You drink it and I tell the world you committed suicide?

God isn't pulling strings; we are not marionettes.

No, he's pulling the leash; we're dogs.

If you want to place blame, put it on Adam and Eve. They were made like gods, and they chose to abdicate that for the lie of duality, ascension, and that God did not have their best interest - hiding things from them.

Speaking of "that lie," it's kind of interesting that it was God, not the serpent, that lied to them -- everything happened exactly as the serpent described.

Right. This seems to be a common notion amongst atheists and agnostics - even believers. We WERE created in His image, but we lost that.

Just "lost," or had it stolen?

This is a spiritual situation, not carnality.

You do love that duality even as you rail against it.

I said exactly what I meant - which is NOT "physical = bad; spiritual = good."

And yet you keep coming back to it unawares...

When did I ever say this? Or, is this what you inferred? I said exactly what I meant, and that is NOT "my theology." I have no theology, in fact I don't even have a denomination for which "theology" should be shared, or interpreted.

Right -- you have no theology.... what then have you been discussing? cheesecake recipes?

I know that is what it sounds like, because that argument has been used since Genesis 3. But, it isn't the Truth.

If we were discussing theology, "Truth" with a capital T would be relevant.... alas, you claim we're not.

Knowing the future, and the complete evolution of every single event does not excuse anyone from their actions or intent to act. It is as simple as that.

Too simple, in fact -- you're ignoring (or more accurately, avoiding) the fact that God does more than know the future -- he arranges it... or does He have no responsibility for His actions?

When has precognition ever made a criminal innocent of his or her crimes s/he ultimately commits?

We're not talking precognition, we're talking entrapment. And that absolves criminals all the time.

Try using that defense in a CARNAL court of law, let alone at spiritual judgment.

Again you address the duality!

You are having trouble separating control over activity with a lack of will - erroneously leading to the conclusion that since God is in control, you aren't responsible for your choices or intent. God IS in control. So what?

So he controls me... and you. And everything else... and yet, He bears none of the responsibility for His actions?

It neither obliterate your responsibility, nor does it suggest that you are a slave to a source code.

You're not paying attention. "Source code" is your idea, not mine.

So, you have the capacity to do, think and choose good and/or evil, but you ARE bounded by certain conditions (i.e. you don't have the power to undo creation, or even to ascend - yet.)

Ascend to what? Are you invoking the duality again? But of course you are.

Limited will does not mean you have no choice: you need to understand this distinction.

I do; you don't. You haven't been listening.

Christ could have defied God whenever He wanted to. In fact, it wasn't until he was 26 until the Holy Spirit fully descended onto Him.

Are you saying that Christ wasn't always Divine? The Church considers that heresy... but I forget, you have no theology, do you?

There is no melodrama; there was no exaggerstion or "pomp and circumstance." It is straight forward; the answer is clear in the canon and apocrypha. This is especially true for the reason for the sacrifice: it is for our benefit - a perturbative correction for the added term of SIN in the equation of our life. Without salvation, the equation drives toward total degeneracy for us. (As I said before, there are "coupling constants" and parameters of life that are consequences of the initial and boundary conditions.)

none of this explains its necessity.... you don't know, do you?

No, it is FEAR and LIES, IGNORANCE and DISDAIN that keep people ENTRAPPED. There is no illusion of choice; the illusion is in believing you are a puppet contrilled by a malevolent god.

Your illusion, not mine. Pay attention.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Well, that's the big question, isn't it? Is a choice made under duress really a choice?

Don't worry about the questions, they aren't necessarily important.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Even the actions I cause?

I put a glass of poison on the table and tell you it's lemonade. You drink it and I tell the world you committed suicide?

In this analogy, you begin with a deception - that is not what happens with God at all. In fact, it is the same strategy the serpent avatar used to get Adam and Eve to abdicate their "divinity." So, this isn't appropriate at all.

God explicitly told Adam and Eve there was "poison in the glass" - and they still made the choice to drink ("eat.") That is on them - even if God knew it would happen. He told them not to do it, and told them the consequences of their actions should they do it - and then they did it. Now, how is God to blame again?

He is very transparent about His plans through prophecy and other mechanisms. He doesn't deceive.

No, he's pulling the leash; we're dogs.

OK then, let's submit to that conclusion; the leash is the latitude we receive to substantially execute the intentions of our heart and mind. As I said, no imperfect being has 100% free will in that they can substantiate every single intention they forge. For this case, "dogs" are (almost rightfully) any imperfect creature - of course there is a leash - or latitude - for that type, then. Why would God allow Azazel, Satan or any of the fallen creatures to roam unbounded?

You are confusing boundaries with absolute and forceful control over an entity - and then extrapolating it to a lack of choice, or rather choices that were unjustly predetermined for you. That isn't the case that would work with your "dog-leash" analogy.

Your analogy is still tantamount to marionette control - except, you are using a living dynamic creature under control as your object rather than an inanimate object. It's the same thing.

Speaking of "that lie," it's kind of interesting that it was God, not the serpent, that lied to them -- everything happened exactly as the serpent described.

You cannot be serious. If you are, you are absolutely incorrect - from a biblical (canonical) point of view, and from an apocryphal point of view.

God told Adam and Eve specifically not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

God told Adam and Eve the consequences of what would happen if they did what He told them not to do. They would die THAT DAY.

The serpent avatar told Adam and Eve that God was lying to them, and that "eating" of the "tree" of knowledge of good and evil would make them godly.

The serpent said that they would NOT die if they "ate" the "fruit" of the "tree" of knowledge of good and evil.

What happened?

1. Adam and Eve learned how to judge the difference between good and evil. Their eyes were open - but not as gods. They became compelled to judge and divide everything into that duality - which is not a godly discernment. Avatar Serpent twisted the truth.

2. Adam and Eve lost their white raiment of light (apocrypha, canonical) and realized they were bare bones naked - they went from being gods to carnal (physical only) creatures. Avatar serpent lied to them.

3. Their carnal bodies immediately began to rot (die,) and their spirit died THAT DAY (apocryphal). Avatar serpent lied again.

4. Now we are all cursed - as well as this planet - because unfortunately our matriarch and patriarch had children AFTER they fell. Moreover, all of that was a ploy to get us to abdicate our God given dominion of this planet to the fallen entities - or "gods."

Now, remember the inheritance of the first born? Well, an allusion to the very incident that we are speaking about in this section happen in the canon - and is quite popular.

Esau was born first; he has the birthright and inheritance of the first born by default. Yet, he ignorantly sold that birthright to his brother, Jacob, on the basis of desperation and deceit. This "iteration" happened because denatured/degenerate "coding" tends to repeat itself in different ways. But, as said, God uses that degeneracy to provide warning and learning to the next generations.

Jacob and Esau... Adam, Eve and Avatar Serpent... there is really nothing new under the sun - especially for corrupt, imperfect creatures.

Just "lost," or had it stolen?

Lost. I don't think you quite understand Adam and Eve were responsible for their own actions. I understand you want to imply God - in His omniscience - therefore stole our image, but that is categorically untrue.

You do love that duality even as you rail against it.

I think I have just been speaking, and you have just been looking, so I am going stop here. As I respond to each of these, I find myself repeating myself. So, let's address this:

Duality is a part of our lives, because our Matriarch and Patriarch opened that door for the entire world. It is NOW a part of our life. Up, down. Left, right. Democrat, republican. Right, wrong. Happy, sad...

Duality is a result of our folly - it is ingrained in every human that was born after Adam and Eve.

I rail against duality because UNITY is better - it is what we had before the fall, and it is what we [should] strive toward. "Oneness" is better than division - although the world would say otherwise.

I have never said physical = bad and spiritual = good. Stop saying I said, or implied this because it untrue, and another reason why I am truncating my responses. I used my words carefully; carnality is the closest to an implication of "physical = bad" I have said, but that still wasn't my implication.

Is sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder - on the basis that God maliciously set us all up. That is fine; my job isn't to convince you of anything. I have already said enough.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Don't worry about the questions, they aren't necessarily important.

Hypotheticals even less so.

 

[just a believing guy]

Perhaps you're unaware, but it flatly contradicts the Bible -- now normally that wouldn't bother me, except you have no basis for pulling this out of your hat.

How does it contradict the Bible? The Greek work most commonly translated as ''carpenter'' could be translated as denoting any kind of laborer. And the building of Sepphoris would attract Hellenistic artisans. By interaction with them He must have had become fluent in Greek and aware of the Hellenitic thought. So His blending of the Hellenistic and the Jewish and the Roman would really make His messages original.

 

[just a believing guy]

It's what Paul calls: fullness of time

 

[TLK Valentine]

How does it contradict the Bible? The Greek work most commonly translated as ''carpenter'' could be translated as denoting any kind of laborer.

Not any kind of laborer... there is a bit of a range:

The Koine Greek word, tekton, has a wider semantic range. It can, of course, mean a carpenter in the common sense; but it can also mean other things:

A new construction carpenter, like a framer
A general construction worker
A general craftsman
A cabinet maker
A Cooper (Someone who makes barrels)
A Shipbuilder

If I were translating Mark 6:3 or Matthew 13:55, I would use ‘craftsman’ instead of ‘carpenter.’ Like the word tekton, ‘craftsman’ is generic.

The etymological evidence leans toward His being a worker or craftsman.

Source: 10 Misconceptions About Jesus: #4 – Jesus was a carpenter

And the building of Sepphoris would attract Hellenistic artisans. By interaction with them He must have had become fluent in Greek and aware of the Hellenitic thought.

Must have, you say? Wishful thinking?

So His blending of the Hellenistic and the Jewish and the Roman would really make His messages original.

His blending? That only makes sense if Jesus wrote his own work... which he did not.

 

[just a believing guy]

Not any kind of laborer... there is a bit of a range:



Source: 10 Misconceptions About Jesus: #4 – Jesus was a carpenter



Must have, you say? Wishful thinking?



His blending? That only makes sense if Jesus wrote his own work... which he did not.

It is no wonder that Luke, as a Hellenist, wrote two books of the New Testament. Which means that the ''Church Fathers'' were aware of the need to accentuate the Hellenistic approach of Jesus, i.e. His Hellenistic awareness.

It's not wishful thinking; it is very plausible: He was in contact with many people during His physical time on Earth, and it would have been a miracle indeed, that He would not have become fluent in both Greek and Roman

 

[TLK Valentine]

It is no wonder that Luke, as a Hellenist, wrote two books of the New Testament. Which means that the ''Church Fathers'' were aware of the need to accentuate the Hellenistic approach of Jesus, i.e. His Hellenistic awareness.

Or... The Hellenistic influence was Luke's own -- not Jesus'.

Considering that Luke was a Hellenized author writing to a Hellenized audience, I'm going to go with the far more likely scenario...

It's not wishful thinking; it is very plausible: He was in contact with many people during His physical time on Earth, and it would have been a miracle indeed, that He would not have become fluent in both Greek and Roman

You mean Latin, not "Roman." And which sort of people was he in contact with? The upwardly mobile, cosmopolitan, intellectual crowd? Or the dregs, castoffs, malcontents, and outcasts?

As I said... wishful thinking.