Transgression of the law vs sinful nature

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

And how was sinful Adam the pattern of sinless Christ (Romans 5:14)?

Yeshua was the 2nd Adam...both Sons of The Almighty...one obedient, the other not...one brought death, the other brought life...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

They all died. . .indeed it was!

And they did not sin.

Did you even read what I wrote? Who did not sin??? It says they did not sin like ADAM did...they couldn't because only Adam was in Gan Eden!

 

[Clare73]

Yeshua was the 2nd Adam...both Sons of The Almighty...one obedient, the other not...
one brought death, the other brought life...

True. . .but Romans 5:12-15 is not about life and death, it is about sin and righteousness.

The pattern of the passage (Romans 5:12-15) is about sin and righteousness, not about death and life.

 

[Clare73]

Did you even read what I wrote? Who did not sin??? It says
they did not sin like ADAM did...they couldn't because only Adam was in Gan Eden!

And how did Adam sin?

By violating a command with the death penalty attached (Genesis 2:17) .

There were no commands with the death penalty attached between Adam and Moses.
Therefore, they did not sin like Adam sinned (by violating a command with the death penalty attached).
Yet, they all died anyway. . .because of Adam's sin imputed to them, just as Christ's righteousness is imputed (Romans 4:1-11).

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No, the Greek is: "death reigned from Adam until Moses ever over the (ones) not sinning on the likeness of the transgression of Adam," and is the definition of sin for this passage (Romans 5:12-15).

Paul says sin was imputed, and Paul says they did not sin. . .that is my point:
(just as) the sin of Adam was imputed to them (they were made sinners),
(so also) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them (they are made righteous). Romans 5:19.

Man has nothing to do with either imputation of Adam's sin nor imputation of Christ's righteousness.
They are made sinners (by imputation of Adam's sin), and they are made righteous (by imputation of Christ's righteousness).

That is the duo of contrasting parallels in Romans 5:18-19.

It says "over the (ones) not sinning on the likeness of the transgression of Adam"...yes it was imputed..we all sin and we all DIE...even though we were NOT in the garden (only Adam sinned there)...we suffer the consequences of that sin...DEATH. We are born into a fallen world. Adam brought death, Yeshua brought life! Simple!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

True. . .but Romans 5:12-15 is not about life and death, it is about sin and righteousness.

The pattern of the passage (Romans 5:12-15) is about sin and righteousness.

Yes. Adam brought sin and death...Yeshua brought righteousness and life.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

And how did Adam sin?

By violating a command with the death penalty attached (Genesis 2:17) .

There were no commands with the death penalty attached between Adam and Moses.
Therefore, they did not sin like Adam sinned (by violating a command with the death penalty attached).
Yet. . .they all died.

Again, what you said actually proves my point! Adam brought death into the world. We suffer the consequences of Adam's sin! We DIE! Don't you get it???

 

[Clare73]

It says "over the (ones) not sinning on the likeness of the transgression of Adam"...yes it was imputed..we all sin and we all DIE...even though we were NOT in the garden (only Adam sinned there)...we suffer the consequences of that sin...DEATH. We are born into a fallen world. Adam brought death, Yeshua brought life! Simple!

Great! That puts us in agreement, right?

 

[Clare73]

Again, what you said actually proves my point! Adam brought death into the world. We suffer the consequences of Adam's sin! We DIE! Don't you get it???

Agreed. . .we suffer the consequences of Adam's sin because it was imputed to us, as the pattern (Romans 5:14) of Christ's righteousness being imputed to us (Romans 4:1-11).

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Agreed. . .we suffer the consequences of Adam's sin because it was imputed to us, as the pattern (Romans 5:14) of Christ's righteousness being imputed to us (Romans 4:1-11).

We are not guilty of Adam's sin but we suffer the consequences of it.

 

[Clare73]

We are not guilty of Adam's sin but we suffer the consequences of it.

It is injustice to be required to pay the consequences for that of which we are not guilty.

Just as our guilt is due to God's imputation of Adam's sin/guilt,
so also our righteousness is due to God's imputation of Christ's righteousness (Romans 5:19, Romans 4:1-11) making sinful Adam the pattern (Romans 5:14) of sinless Christ.

You are not in agreement with Romans 5:12-15, where "no one sinned" and "all sinned" between Adam and Moses.

"No one sinned" by breaking a command with the death penalty attached, as did Adam, and
"all sinned" (proven by the death of all) by the imputation of Adam's sin.

.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It is injustice to be required to pay the consequences for that of which we are not guilty.

Just as our guilt is due to God's imputation of Adam's sin/guilt,
so also our righteousness is due to God's imputation of Christ's righteousness (Romans 5:19, Romans 4:1-11) making sinful Adam the pattern (Romans 5:14) of sinless Christ.

You are not in agreement with Romans 5:12-15, where "no one sinned" and "all sinned" between Adam and Moses.

"No one sinned" by breaking a command with the death penalty attached, as did Adam, and
"all sinned" (proven by the death of all) by the imputation of Adam's sin.

.

The injustice would be guilt for something we did not do nor are guilty for. If one man exploded an atomic bomb, we would not be guilty of it but we would suffer its consequences. The wages of sin is death. All sin has the death penalty attached to it. I am in agreement with Romans, just not YOUR interpretation of it...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Great! That puts us in agreement, right?

Read what I wrote...

 

[Clare73]

The injustice would be guilt for something we did not do nor are guilty for.

Precisely. . .and "no one sinned" between Adam and Moses. . . and yet all died because "all sinned."
You are not addressing/dealing with the text (Romans 5:12-15).

If one man exploded an atomic bomb, we would not be guilty of it but
we would suffer its consequences.

Nowhere in the NT are physical and spiritual death due to collateral damage,
everywhere in the NT death is the penalty for the guilt of sin, including the following statement by you.

The wages of sin is death.

But "no one sinned," and yet they all died as the wages of sin between Adam and Moses.

All sin has the death penalty attached to it.
I am in agreement with Romans, just not YOUR interpretation of it...

And you arrive at your conclusion by not dealing with the text (Romans 5:12-15).

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Precisely. . .and "no one sinned" between Adam and Moses. . . and yet all died because "all sinned."
You are not addressing/dealing with the text (Romans 5:12-15).

Nowhere in the NT are physical and spiritual death due to collateral damage,
everywhere in the NT death is the penalty for the guilt of sin, including the following statement by you.

But "no one sinned," and yet they all died as the wages of sin between Adam and Moses.
And you arrive at your conclusion by not dealing with the text (Romans 5:12-15).

Yes I am addressing the text. As I have said, sin and death entered the world (Romans 5:12). Every sin can have ripple effects to those around us, so did Adam's. He brought sin and death into the fallen world we are all born into. It says no one sinner IN THE SAME MANNER AS ADAM (Romans 5:14)...no one could because no one else was in the garden with Adam and Chavah. The Church Fathers teach that we are guilty not because of Adam’s sin, but because of our own sin. The Greek word for sin, "amartema", refers to an individual act, indicating that Adam and Chavah alone assume full responsibility for the sin in Eden.