Transgender man gives birth after getting pregnant with FEMALE sperm donor

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muichimotsu

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Secular definition = denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.
And that's a bad thing why? You speak as if it's just common sense to be religious/spiritual, when I'd argue the contrary
 
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muichimotsu

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Just to clarify again, Im not against Transgenders. If the person is an adult then the way they decide to live their lives is all fine. It is the politics involved that is the problem.


The problem becomes that you're trying to separate the respect for the person with respect for something that is arguably not something they're choosing anymore than a gay person doesn't choose their attractions. Anything afterwards is going to vary by individual, but their mere identifying with a different gender that contrasts with their sex is not something they have a choice in
 
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muichimotsu

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No. One absolutely has the right to do anything (legal and possible) that he wants, as a consenting adult but he does not possess the right to demand that everyone else capitulate to approval when it violates their own beliefs.

That's what freedom is.
No, you're flat out wrong, because legal and possible are not the same thing by a stretch. Freedom is not the ability to do whatever you wish in a civil society when it infringes on the rights of others, the fact that that basic idea escapes you is, frankly, disturbing.

Violating beliefs when they encourage behavior that would violate other's rights or otherwise create dysfunction in society is a responsibility of the law to do so (someone under a delusion that people are after them, for instance, should probably be put in an institution if their behavior becomes increasingly damaging)
 
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muichimotsu

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QFT

I don't get why folks are getting mad about a person bringing life into this world that they will love and raise to be a respectful, productive human being.
Obviously they aren't doing it right so they deserve to be mocked, apparently, because it's totally their business what someone else does when it doesn't affect them in the slightest except in offending their sensibilities
 
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Jezabella

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Whataboutguns? Well AR15s aren't the topic here....

It's called an analogy and, used appropriately, is extremely useful in making a point that can be more easily grasped.

SO, why all this energy expended in the rejection of transgenders yet next to no energy expended in rejection of the ownership of a lethal weapon like an AR15?

I hope the point is clearer now.





As for "trans people do no harm"....what are you saying? There are no trans criminals? They never victimize anyone?
Only a black/white thinker would ask such a question.

Forgive me for saying this but I am learning that trying to reason with a black and white thinker is like trying to reason with a 5 year old who is bewildered because Santa Claus didn't bring her the pink iPad she asked him for when she had her pic taken with him in the Mall.

Life is not ... either/or ... black/white ... good/bad.

As for "trans people do no harm"....what are you saying? There are no trans criminals? They never victimize anyone?
How many people are going to argue with me that there aren't way more criminals on the pulpit, preaching subliminal hatred and divisiveness than transwomen in a public bathroom?

I can tell you without reservation that all things being equal, there are wayyy more authentic transgenders than there are authentic pastors on a pulpit.

I do not fear transgenders. But religious clergy scare the heck out of me.

Criminals Behind the Pulpit by Solomon A. Aror
 
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Cis.jd

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the problem is that "back then" the genetic components (xx,xy) were not even known. Gender and sex decoupled when sociology and psychology studies group and individual relations. Back then, psychology and sociology didn't exist yet and mental health was still seen as a primarily spiritual matter.

The point of the argument is that the terminology used for gender now is new.
It never meant what the left has defined it to be. The referencing of Darwins time is just to pin point as to how long in time that i can reference of the word gender being binary.. or another word for sex.
Its only to counter the claim that gender being associated with a spectrum is false.

You keep saying " The left" but as I mentioned the only ideologies that have a problem with the concept of gender tend to be traditionalist right ideals. Libertarian right ideals seem to not insist on strict gender definitions. As far as books and studies, I can find some papers and studies for you after I return from my vacation. I know there has been research that stretches back to the 60s on this topic.

This is false because ive already posted links to videos of Sam Harris and Joe Rogan. Neither of them are far right.
I know the research of it and i have read the arguments against it. The problem is really the politics that the left has made towards this that fully rejects science.
We have never disregarded biology over any psychological based views. We dont even do that with animals.

We can see how invalid the progressives are with their sociology on this just by experiment. Which is sports. In sports we see the absolute difference between the evolution of males and females regardless of whatever beliefs they have of themselves.

Usually it's based on genitals, personally I think it's just a tradition that has stuck around and it's not a necessary documentation, but it's just there so we as a nation continue it for census reasons.

But this is how other animals identify the genders of their young..


It comes off to me that you dont really understand what social constructs are and how they function. I'm not sure what you mean by facts, because you are taking how a person presents and identifies based on societal constructs of gender. Genetic prescriptions such as XX, and XY primarily function to tell the body to develop, but dont dictate the social norms. Such as clothing, make up, demeanor, toys, jobs, etc. Those are constructs reinforced by society and the performance of these expectations seem to be the heart of Feminism, trans ideology, and Non binary people.

I understand what social constructs are but there are social constructs that are just based on fact. Psychology is an important study to visual designers study because making products or media that sells to a target audience is what keeps us employed.

The difference here is that you are talking about a measurement of time (age) vs a societal constructions on what makes a person a man/women.
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So what? Its all self identification either way. If the person feels that way then why should any biological factors be a trump card?

No, I fully understood your argument. You are arguing about the norm, norms are reinforced by cultural/societal constructs. Since you have worked for LEGO, you are probably also aware that for the majority of LEGO's history there was no specific gender targeting. However in the late 70s and early 80s

snip

No. Lego now has had different teams that handle different target audience and its the department that deals with children who work more when it comes to female products in comparison to boys. How it started is meaningless. Go search Lego Friends. Look at how diverse its items are and how the girls are shown playing with it.Then go to something such as Lego Starwars. How do the
Items look? What are the boys usually doing in the commercials? How many light sabers, a hero and villain, combat looking stuff are in these sets? .

You can scapegoat society and say “well its because society influences boys this way..” but why why hasn’t Lego (or any kids product) tried to influence boys to have a wider role playing imagination. Reason why is it because it doesn't work. We go where the money is.
 
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muichimotsu

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Faith/relationship to God is formed and acquired; biologically male or female is immutable at conception. Done deal. Some things ARE immutable no matter how much fantasy in which one partakes. We ARE humans. It's immutable, but there are some disordered individuals who believe they are cats or other animals.

We ARE born male/man or female/woman, period. Intersex rarely happens, but it happens in the same way in which an extra appendage happens, or a twin is absorbed. Something went awry in the development process. We live in a sinful, disordered world and have poisoned the earth, water, air...it has effects over time and we are seeing it all over.

You aren't and should not be a basketball player because you have big hands. You are a basketball player if you possess the talent and opportunity and develop it. Your choice.
Again, I never denied that, though you're ignoring intersex as a variation within the sexual spectrum. Not sure why I have to qualify that there is not a contradiction in acknowledging sex and gender as separate phenomenon except when you engage in prescriptivist linguistics

Humans is a descriptive term, it's not some biological fact aside from our ascribing that taxonomical species term to the word "human" along with a metaphysical meaning

~~~

Except, again, you're assuming that I'd approve of that when I'd say I don't because animals are defined in terms of biological facts and structures, gender is not

~~~

I seriously doubt being intersex is comparable to genuine birth defects that create actual problems in some form or fashion, but you're free to generalize based on what you think you understand about science

If you're going to just assume your explanatory model is valid without actually demonstrating it, be my guest, but methinks the evolutionary biology model is far more verifiable and falsifiable than whatever superstitious and immaterial concept like sin affecting things could ever provide in terms of substantial explanation rather than specious correlation

~~~~

The point is that you don't get to assume EVERYTHING about a person based on particular traits we are, indeed, born with. Gender and sex, as I've emphasized, are not synonymous terms outside of an antiquated conflation based on what historians have observed was a cultural taboo of not referring to sexual intercourse, rather than an actual common usage that was based in etymology or such that gender and sex were identical rather than demonstrably different terms from their inception
 
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Kaon

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I've seen articles about splicing human and animals genes. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

I am not commenting on the ethics or morality of what was done. I am simply saying that if it was two women without a "drop of sperm," it would be a possible technique that has been available to public knowledge for 12 years.

Which is why I wanted to know if either was biologically born male, or if they were both born biologically female.
 
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muichimotsu

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The point of the argument is that the terminology used for gender now is new.
It never meant what the left has defined it to be. The referencing of Darwins time is just to pin point as to how long in time that i can reference of the word gender being binary.. or another word for sex.
Its only to counter the claim that gender being associated with a spectrum is false.

Again, you're misrepresenting the argument in the first place: it not meaning the distinct notion of identity as masculine or feminine psychologically back then is like saying that gay didn't mean homosexual in the past, thus it never meant homosexual. You're failing to understand the basic fact that language changes, it's not just based on a whim (unless particular memes are involved, maybe)

Gender is associated with a spectrum now, it may not have been back in the day, but that doesn't invalidate the present definition merely because you can point to a time when it wasn't, almost certain that's faulty reasoning


This is false because ive already posted links to videos of Sam Harris and Joe Rogan. Neither of them are far right.
I know the research of it and i have read the arguments against it. The problem is really the politics that the left has made towards this that fully rejects science.
We have never disregarded biology over any psychological based views. We dont even do that with animals.

Again, who's disregarding biology? You're advocating what sounds like biological essentialism, as if all psychological aspects must be biologically connected, when that's utterly false even apart from gender identity, but you've failed to show the causal connection that necessarily exists between me having a penis and identifying as a man (as distinct from a male in the biological terminology that isn't synonymous with man)

We can see how invalid the progressives are with their sociology on this just by experiment. Which is sports. In sports we see the absolute difference between the evolution of males and females regardless of whatever beliefs they have of themselves.

Absolute differences in particulars, but not in terms of skills that can be acquired apart from those limitations. Are you suggesting someone who's short cannot best someone who is tall? Sports is as much about skill as it is those physical traits that have an upper limit through training

But this is how other animals identify the genders of their young..

You realize animals don't have human concepts in their minds, right? They likely generally don't have the ability to conceptualize anyway, this is an absurd comparison, because you can't actually talk to animals and understand them in terms of such things, anymore than you can charge an elephant with murder when they gore someone.



I understand what social constructs are but there are social constructs that are just based on fact. Psychology is an important study to visual designers study because making products or media that sells to a target audience is what keeps us employed.

The statistical observations are not hard facts or absolute in that they are not representative of a whole, just a representative sample at best, methinks you're exaggerating how predictive statistics can be when we're talking about a fluctuating system in societal norms on gender


So what? Its all self identification either way. If the person feels that way then why should any biological factors be a trump card?
Because identifying as a non human animal implies vastly different things than merely presenting and behaving as the opposite gender, which doesn't have implications that create dysfunction apart from antiquated stereotypes and restrictive norms about how men and women ought to behave without substantive basis beyond tradition


No. Lego now has had different teams that handle different target audience and its the department that deals with children who work more when it comes to female products in comparison to boys. How it started is meaningless. Go search Lego Friends. Look at how diverse its items are and how the girls are shown playing with it.Then go to something such as Lego Starwars. How do the
Items look? What are the boys usually doing in the commercials? How many light sabers, a hero and villain, combat looking stuff are in these sets? .

You can scapegoat society and say “well its because society influences boys this way..” but why why hasn’t Lego (or any kids product) tried to influence boys to have a wider role playing imagination. Reason why is it because it doesn't work. We go where the money is

You realize marketing can just be lazy and go with trends instead of actually innovating right? It's not like people don't make bad decisions in regards to social pressures or their misunderstanding of such things for whatever reason


Also, finally found the functionality to quote like years ago (interface just changed since I took a break)
 
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muichimotsu

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highlight the section and hit "+Quote" keep highlighting sections of interest and keep adding it to "+Quote". Then when you're ready click "Insert Quotes..." and it will show you all the individual quotes you selected. You can add them all, or rearrange them or add whatever you choose. Then add your comments in between each block. I typically do this to break apart paragraphs.
Actually found an easier way that's how I used to do it before the interface was streamlined and the original icons changed, but I can do it, see recent post I made.
 
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muichimotsu

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It's all psychological though,right? Or only when convenient?
I don't think people are reducing everything to psychological aspects and most theories in psychology would probably be willing to acknowledge biological and neurological factors, as well as the nuance between nature and nurture in general.
 
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muichimotsu

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Whataboutguns? Well AR15s aren't the topic here....

As for "trans people do no harm"....what are you saying? There are no trans criminals? They never victimize anyone?
Their being criminals doesn't follow to their being trans as a causal factor
 
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muichimotsu

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Mark 10:6 (KJV)

6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

And in FACT nothing can change a male cell into a female cell apart from in the mind of those under a strong delusion
No one is claiming biology is being changed, this is not a complicated distinction to make between psychological identity and biological facts.

The latter is only relevant in contrast to the persistent identity dysphoria that one experiences as being transgender, they aren't claiming they are now male/female, they're saying they're a man/woman, that shift of terminology is seemingly far more difficult that I realized for people set in their ways with no real substance behind them
 
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muichimotsu

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Secondly, my argument with the whole trans homosexual culture, is not the 'authentic' situations that may be the result or cause of their biology, it is the over the top promotion of gay and LGBT(Q) culture (and the subsequent and fashionable hate on anyone who would 'question' the promotion of LGBTQ culture).

Methinks you're confusing the two aspects, as if they're necessarily dependent on each other. LGBTQ representation is fine, unless you really hate the idea that someone that isn't your in-group is getting recognized in general culture. And "promotion" is a buzzword that means nothing without actual substantiation of what you mean: and questioning the promotion is worth criticizing (not hating) when it's not based in anything reasonable beyond religious superstition and tradition)

I believe introducing and promoting the gay lifestyle (on young people especially) - may result in them missing out on the greatest thing any person can become in this life - that is becoming a parent (and or a 'family'). Young people are joining, becoming, and living a gay lifestyle when they are young and often missing the natural developments (and possible happiness) that comes from a humans own natural yearning to become a parent and have their own children. I know that some people can be born with out the natural means to reproduce, but 'most' people 'are' given the natural means to find someone of the opposite sex and reproduce - steering young people the opposite way at earlier and earlier ages, and at impressionable ages, is 'tragic' to their ever enjoying what they as adults will most likely want or 'miss' (as this OP articles scenario exhibits)

Well, you'd be disappointed to hear that me, someone that at least had a heterosexual attraction and now identifies as asexual (not the reproductive kind, look up asexual as a sexual orientation, nuance matters)

And my exposure to LGBTQ people was not my reasoning in the slightest for my identifying as asexual and ALSO not why I decided I do not want to be a parent (shock!)

Also, not sure why you'd use the term lifestyle when being gay is hardly a lifestyle in the sociological sense, it's at best a part of a broader lifestyle in general that can vary greatly between various gay people (some are vegetarians, some are polyamorous, etc, but their being gay is not a broad lifestyle in itself)

Oh, and the biggest glaring problem, you mistakenly assume LGBTQ people don't want to be parents when that's not true, I know several who are LGBTQ and want to be parents, you're making fallacious correlations between what you think is some "lifestyle" and what is actually the case

Is it now 'wrong' to even 'promote the idea' of having your own children? Or having a marriage and having a family, in the most natural way possible, as the best thing for human beings and our species??

You're acting like having children through surrogacy is an insult to childbearing itself, which I'd find horribly short sighted and terrible if you actually advocated such a notion. Family is not nearly the hard-line structure you appear to think it is and trying to fit people into those boxes doesn't help in arguing why it's somehow more beneficial rather than substantiating it
 
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muichimotsu

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It is the same case with a single person who sets out with to have a child and 'plans' to not have the other parent in the relationship, however they plan it, it is 'planning' to have a child 'without' the natural or preferred biological parent (a married couple who wish to use a sperm or egg donor, is taking the same risk, and it is 'unfortunate' and i'm not going to argue with that - it is the whole switching sexes and then then doing what you were in the first place, then claiming its not - is my argument)

Biological parent is not necessarily preferred, it doesn't follow that biological connection means you will be a good parent. You're still insinuating, like before, that a child conceived through gestational surrogate is somehow worth less compared to a child born to their biological parents and raised by them. That also insinuates adoptive parents are less parents than if they have a biological connection, both abhorrently simplistic.

No one's saying they're switching sexes, you're mistakenly interchanging sex and gender as if they're the same in the discussion, when they're arguably not in terms of usage for 50+ years now

Still: whenever a child is raised by anyone other than the two biological parents it is because of 'some' tragedy, or unfortunate situation (I have never heard of one that isn't unfortunate). Being raised by your own 'two' biological parents is the best of all worlds (note of course being adopted or raised by people other than your own two parents 'can' be 'wonderful and great' yet, this is not the 'best' scenario)

I'd argue the contrary: biological parents are not demonstrably good parents in general and we can very likely, with consulting experts, find countless examples historically of biological parents being abusive and otherwise maladjusting a child. You're mistakenly suggesting that the connection by blood means that the relationship will necessarily be good rather than the possible tendency, which is a causation versus correlation fallacy in thinking. Funny you put "wonderful and great" as if that's somehow in question when you don't appear to have been adopted yourself and can't really speak authoritatively. I'm not either, but I don't speak as if my experience is somehow the default

Nor are we saying that an abusive parent situation is better; because that also is 'a tragic situation' - and it should be 'stopped' - and the child removed from the abusive parent, or divorce, but to your point - we don't start out by 'purposefully' bringing a child into a less than ideal beginning. Even if the two biological parents are not the most perfect loving parents it seems most children are better off and would rather be with their imperfect parents, as blood relation is generally and arguably the strongest bond in families.

You don't get to dictate what's ideal based on unsubstantiated ideas that biological connection is the essential part to bringing up a child in a healthy environment. Why should it be about that rather than healthy childrearing in terms of the relationship itself rather than the substance of how their dynamic as parent and child came to be? You've already admitted that it isn't essential to be raised by biological parents, you just haven't freed yourself of the assumption that there is some causal relationship between biological relation and a child growing up well adjusted that you haven't also observed the contrary for already (abusive biological parents).

It "seeming" to be the case is intellectually lazy thinking, you'd need to substantiate it or you're engaging in more faulty reasoning to suggest adopted children or those raised by LGBTQ are just destined to be maladjusted when evidence doesn't suggest that at all
 
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Cis.jd

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The problem becomes that you're trying to separate the respect for the person with respect for something that is arguably not something they're choosing anymore than a gay person doesn't choose their attractions. Anything afterwards is going to vary by individual, but their mere identifying with a different gender that contrasts with their sex is not something they have a choice in

I’ve said many times that if the person is an adult then how they chose their lives is their business. Im going after the politics around it. Listen to the video links because it explains where my stance comes from.
 
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Enough! This thread is closed . Some clean up was done.
 
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