Transgender and the church

[brightmorningstar]

David Brider,

Transgender is not as simple as choosing to act in a particular way.

No feelings are.

It's a deeprooted belief, normally built up over several decades, that a person should not be the gender they were born with.

and faith in Christ destroys wrong thinking. You know believers conform all thoughts to Christ. The person may have feelings one way or the other but as trhe scripture says the believer honours God with their body it is not their own it is bought at a price

 

[SonOfTheWest]

So there's no possibility what so ever that the condition is a result of genetics and like any medical condition could be handled in some cases by the person in question having a sexual reassignment surgery in addition to hormone therapy,etc.

I wonder what Kim Petras would think.

 

[OllieFranz]

Earlier on in that chapter it says not to lay with one's mother. Do you think that is not talking about incest?

Yes I do. It is not talking about incest. At least not incest as we define it. Both All three of the Patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) were in incestuous marriages as we would define them. Ammon saw nothing wrong with seducing and marrying his sister Tamar, at least not until she resisted and the seduction became rape.

On the other hand, fully half of the forbidden relationships are not blood relationships.

The key lies in the verse that forbids sex with the wife of a brother. Since levirate law commands marriage to a brother's widow, the "incest" command must apply to the wife of a living brother. It is an adultery command, not an incest command.

 

[SnowyMacie]

How did we go from talking about transgendered people to incest. Never mind, I don't know want to know. Anyway, my personal opinion on sex/gender and God explained. God did intend sex and gender to be directly defined (as I recall "He created them male and female..." is before the story of the fall BUT due the fall of man that, like everything else was no longer perfect. So, that is why people are born with various intersex conditions.
Furthermore, if God cares so much about sex and gender then why say "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus"- Galatians 3:38. From what I get from the verse is that God doesn't really care if what race or nationality we are, or what sex we are either. He looks on the inside, that's what He does. God knows and understands about the way I and all other transgendered folks are, and know how much struggle it is to have. God wants everybody to be saved, and why would he say "in order to be saved-- you must reject how I designed you". God doesn't make mistakes or change, but He adjusts to changes and mistakes people make. If He didn't, I don't see how He could be a personal God.

 

[good brother]

No, it's talking about not laying with a man as one would with a woman. You're welcome to your belief that it must be about homosexuality, but since it's possible to be a homosexual without "laying with a man as one would with a woman," you're wrong.

Well, no, I am not wrong. Jesus said a man who lusts after a woman has committed adultery already which does not down play the law of "Thou shall not commit adultery. It reinforces the idea that we must guard our thoughts just as much, if not more, than our actions for it is our thoughts that lead into our actions.

Romantic and physical attraction to people of the same gender as oneself.

The whole "act" thing counts for the consummation of all the thoughts. So, in essence, it is the fulfillment of the attraction.
It is talking about homosexuality in Leviticus.


In Christ, GB

 

[KellyJ]

The body is organic, so taking care of it is different than taking care of a computer, but many of the fundamental concepts upon which they operate are the same. Your body uses electrical signals, just like a circuit, and DNA is a combination of executable code that runs processes and stores data, just like a computer operating system. The major difference, however, is that people have choice. There is no hardwired behavior in humans. As I just mentioned, there are things that can cause a person to be tempted or enticed to make a certian choice, but they still have the ability to choose.

Hmmm! Really? You may want to research this a little further before making such a statement. Contrary to your belief; the human brain is hardwired and requires hormones (input signals) to function properly. Normal male brains need Testosterone. Normal female brains need Estrogen. Yes, the two are very different. You seem to know a lot about computers, so let me put it on your terms. We all agree a Windows based program cannot work in a MAC, correct? Well same thing goes for hormones. You just can't introduce estrogen to a normal male brain and expect that brain to function at full capacity. Try it sometime and let me know what happens.

I'll tell you what it did for me. Nearly destroyed me. However, it wasn't the estrogen that did it. It was the testosterone my body created. For anyone to suggest a transgender person suck it up and live with it truly has little understanding of this medical condition advocating a position that is inhumane and destructive.

 

[LoraElise]

19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Does honoring God with your body mean suffering horribly every minute of every day, and agonizing every single time you look into a mirror because the outward person you see there does not match who you are?

I repeat from earlier: the Bible is silent on gender dysphoria -- and its NT treatment of eunuchs, the closest comparable issue, is one of compassion and inclusion.

I must confess I'm astonished at the profound lack of compassion on this board and in so many church congregations. People born with a birth defect they did not ask for are told to 'suck it up' and just suffer, by people who cannot possibly relate to what they are going through. And those most condemning of them fall back on a comforting refusal to believe it is a birth defect, despite all evidence to the contrary, simply because they can't make a defect like this fit into the little God box they've built.

For most people, gender identity is one of the few certainties of life, a given in their own lives to which they never give a thought. And when someone is born for whom it is a deeply painful mismatch that agonizes at the very core of their being, they are treated as if they just woke one day and said, "hey, wouldn't it be fun to be a girl!" All because their birth defect deals with gender, a subject that makes prudes, the Biblically illiterate and those who relish thinking themselves holier/less sinful than others uncomfortable.

This isn't about sex, and never was. I wish a lot of people in the Christian community would get their minds out of the gutter. A great many who transition to become outwardly who they have been inwardly from childhood live lives of total celibacy and faith afterward.

How about we let these people handle their infirmity the same way we'd allow a parent to determine whether and how to deal with a child's birth defect. I doubt anyone here would go up to the worried parent of a baby born with a septal defect in her heart and say, "we really think you should leave the child the way God made her and not correct this." Good grief.

I can hear it now. "But a heart defect isn't about sex...or rebellion...or carnality..." *sigh*

In any case, even if the misapplied verses of Deuteronomy, Romans and other books did condemn these people, which they do not, nothing the supposed 'reprobates' who suffer with gender dysphoria do or don't do as concerns their issue would cause a lack or loss of salvation. If they believe in Christ, they are justified through that faith. Period. All the little, private sins we all hide every day (as well as the big ones we pray no one ever finds out about) would disqualify all of us from salvation if they had anything to do with it. Praise God and His astonishing, amazing grace that all of our sins were nailed to the Cross, including those of gender dysphorics.

And at this point, if any of this comes across as condescending, fine.

 

[LoraElise]

You argued that it was hardwired, which it is not, it is a choice. You can choose to act as a male or you can choose to act as a female.

Oh, can you now.

Honestly, that is one of the most absurd and untrue statements I've ever read.

Would you ever, ever, ever in a million years choose to live as a female? No. And why? Because you are hardwired male. You couldn't live as a woman if your life depended on it.

The case of David Reimer proved beyond all doubt that gender is innate and hardwired. Born a normal male, his genitals were damaged during a botched circumcision. So, he was raised from infancy as a girl and renamed 'Brenda,' while his brother was raised a boy. 'Brenda' was never told what had happened, or why 'she' was being raised female. Yet, the 'girl' was never comfortable in that gender role, lived as an extreme tomboy and hated being a girl, and suffered terribly knowing that somehow 'her' life was all wrong. Eventually, at age 15, David defied his upbringing, took on the male life he was wired to live, and reclaimed his original name. Sadly, so much psychological and physical damage had been done to David through being forced to live as someone he was not, he ultimately took his own life.

If you don't believe any of this, look it up.

This is the pain gender dysphorics go through every single day, the pain you insist they should just try to live with. It doesn't work that way. You just can't live a life that is not yours.

 

[good brother]

I must confess I'm astonished at the profound lack of compassion on this board and in so many church congregations. People born with a birth defect they did not ask for are told to 'suck it up' and just suffer, by people who cannot possibly relate to what they are going through. And those most condemning of them fall back on a comforting refusal to believe it is a birth defect, despite all evidence to the contrary, simply because they can't make a defect like this fit into the little God box they've built.
How about we let these people handle their infirmity the same way we'd allow a parent to determine whether and how to deal with a child's birth defect. I doubt anyone here would go up to the worried parent of a baby born with a septal defect in her heart and say, "we really think you should leave the child the way God made her and not correct this." Good grief.

That is a very unfair comparison to say that the sex of a child is a birth defect and then comparing that to an obvious malformed heart. Missing a brain? Birth defect. Missing legs? Birth defect. Too many legs? Birth defect. One penis? Not a birth defect. Both organs? Defect. One or the other? Not a defect.

And at this point, if any of this comes across as condescending, fine.

Do you think being condescending will help heal anyone?

In Christ, GB

 

[SonOfTheWest]

That is a very unfair comparison to say that the sex of a child is a birth defect and then comparing that to an obvious malformed heart. Missing a brain? Birth defect. Missing legs? Birth defect. Too many legs? Birth defect. One penis? Not a birth defect. Both organs? Defect. One or the other? Not a defect.




Do you think being condescending will help heal anyone?

In Christ, GB

Sounds honestly like it's missing the point. Simply saying defect is not to mean anything derogatory. Regardless of what it's compared to a transgender person is not going to identify with the base physical configuration.

 

[KellyJ]

That is a very unfair comparison to say that the sex of a child is a birth defect and then comparing that to an obvious malformed heart. Missing a brain? Birth defect. Missing legs? Birth defect. Too many legs? Birth defect. One penis? Not a birth defect. Both organs? Defect. One or the other? Not a defect.




Do you think being condescending will help heal anyone?

In Christ, GB

You may want to do more research on that. Check out endocrine disrupting drugs and what they do to a fetus.

 

[good brother]

You may want to do more research on that. Check out endocrine disrupting drugs and what they do to a fetus.

Wha-huh? You are going to compare drugs given BY humans TO humans and tell me that that is the same as a natural birth defect? Giving anyone cyanide would cause adverse side effects, yet its not a natural birth defect.

In Christ, GB

 

[KellyJ]

So let me understand you correctly. Because something man made was introduced into the fetal blood supply preventing a hormonal flow from completing the circuitry you would argue it is not a "Birth defect?"

 

[Cuddles333]

Olliefranz,
Stop. If the sex has really changed and it is a woman the person will have the function to reproduce. If not it will be a malfunction, not a dysfunction.

Webster's says that (malfunction) means: to function imperfectly or badly, fail to operate normally.

Webster's says that (dysfunction) means: impaired or abnormal functioning.


Seems that the two words are describing the same thing.

 

[LoraElise]

That is a very unfair comparison to say that the sex of a child is a birth defect and then comparing that to an obvious malformed heart.

You may have missed my earlier posts, or misunderstood them. The defect is the brain being hardwired opposite the apparent outward sex.

Do you think being condescending will help heal anyone?

One can only beat one's head against the wall for so long.

 

[LoraElise]

Wha-huh? You are going to compare drugs given BY humans TO humans and tell me that that is the same as a natural birth defect? Giving anyone cyanide would cause adverse side effects, yet its not a natural birth defect.

And this makes a difference to the baby suffering the defect, how?

 

[OllieFranz]

That is a very unfair comparison to say that the sex of a child is a birth defect and then comparing that to an obvious malformed heart. Missing a brain? Birth defect. Missing legs? Birth defect. Too many legs? Birth defect. One penis? Not a birth defect. Both organs? Defect. One or the other? Not a defect.

Baby steps (Lord, give strength) Baby Steps

Will you at least agree that Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is a birth defect? That is if someone is genetically male, but his body can't process testosterone, and so at the crucial periods during gestation, it can not use the testosterone to change the body, and the baby is born with the outward genitalia of a female. The testes don't decend and appear to be small misshapen ovaries. But no uterus is formed. No uterus means no menses. Insensitivity to the testosterone produced by the testes also means puberty is delayed, weak, or non-existent.

Surely you don't consider this to be a conscious decision the fetus made, do you?

Baby Steps

What about the case where the mother has a hormone imbalance, and the womb is flooded with estrogen during those same crucial moments during gestation? The baby is born as above, but when the testes start producing testosterone, the young girl does go through puberty -- male puberty.

Still a birth defect, or a choice the fetus made? Or maybe the little girl chose to undergo male puberty?

Baby Steps

Same scenario as above, except that the estrogen flood only occurs during one of the crucial stages of gestation. Either the baby is born physically similar to the above, or is born with a "normal" male body, but in either case, the brain developed the structures and biochemistry of the gender opposite that of the body. The "girl" without a womb thinks like a boy, or the boy thinks like a girl. The differences are apparent from the age of two -- or earlier.

So did the two year old consciously decide to start thinking and acting like the "wrong" gender just because he or she thought it would be cool to maybe someday face the second choice between SRS and suicide?

 

[good brother]

Baby steps (Lord, give strength) Baby Steps

Will you at least agree that Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is a birth defect? That is if someone is genetically male, but his body can't process testosterone, and so at the crucial periods during gestation, it can not use the testosterone to change the body, and the baby is born with the outward genitalia of a female. The testes don't decend and appear to be small misshapen ovaries. But no uterus is formed. No uterus means no menses. Insensitivity to the testosterone produced by the testes also means puberty is delayed, weak, or non-existent.

Surely you don't consider this to be a conscious decision the fetus made, do you?

Baby Steps

What about the case where the mother has a hormone imbalance, and the womb is flooded with estrogen during those same crucial moments during gestation? The baby is born as above, but when the testes start producing testosterone, the young girl does go through puberty -- male puberty.

Still a birth defect, or a choice the fetus made? Or maybe the little girl chose to undergo male puberty?

Baby Steps

Same scenario as above, except that the estrogen flood only occurs during one of the crucial stages of gestation. Either the baby is born physically similar to the above, or is born with a "normal" male body, but in either case, the brain developed the structures and biochemistry of the gender opposite that of the body. The "girl" without a womb thinks like a boy, or the boy thinks like a girl. The differences are apparent from the age of two -- or earlier.

So did the two year old consciously decide to start thinking and acting like the "wrong" gender just because he or she thought it would be cool to maybe someday face the second choice between SRS and suicide?

But then the OP really didn't set up those kind of scenarios. The OP was talking about someone who WILLFULLY did it and thus lived a life OUT OF MERE CHOICE. These scenarios you have listed are obviously problems and mutations. I am not going to argue that. I was born with bad eyes, I wear glasses. My "beef" is with those who obviously choose to stay in a sinful "lifestyle" after they've accepted the Lord. I am not talking about those who struggle to overcome sin. I will pray for them and be their friend and love on them and help them along.


In Christ, GB

 

[good brother]

So let me understand you correctly. Because something man made was introduced into the fetal blood supply preventing a hormonal flow from completing the circuitry you would argue it is not a "Birth defect?"

Alcohol is bad for unborn babies. They tell mamas not to drink. Cocaine is bad for unborn babies. They tell mamas not to smoke crack. Even ciggies are bad for unborn babies. They tell mamas not to smoke. Are you starting to see a trend here? Mamas shouldn't do stuff that would be bad for babies.

Defects happen, I understand that. When defects happen naturally, that's one thing. You are talking about something from "The Island of Doctor Moreau".

In Christ,GB

 

[KellyJ]

Alcohol is bad for unborn babies. They tell mamas not to drink. Cocaine is bad for unborn babies. They tell mamas not to smoke crack. Even ciggies are bad for unborn babies. They tell mamas not to smoke. Are you starting to see a trend here? Mamas shouldn't do stuff that would be bad for babies.

Defects happen, I understand that. When defects happen naturally, that's one thing. You are talking about something from "The Island of Doctor Moreau".

In Christ,GB

You've lost me. What's your point? Should mamas not take medicine prescribed by doctors now? Should they not stress over life events? Should they not drink milk? Water? Eat beef? Chicken? Pork? Further, what does this have to do with the original post?