Transgender and the church

[KellyJ]

As a person who has experience working with computers, software programming, and circuit design, the idea that humans are hardwired to do anything is completely laughable. People have free will. No matter what situation you put a person in they always have the option to choose something you didn't expected. Just because most people fail to quit smoking, regain all the weight they lost, or refuse to accept their biological gender, it doesn't mean that doing such things is impossible. Computers are hardwired, and it is physically impossible for them to do anything they are not programmed to do. Humans, on the other hand, have choice, the one thing humans have that nothing else does. You can choose to accept your biological gender, or you can choose to mutilate your body and deny who you are. I'm not saying it will be easy, but people with GID aren't the only people with challenges in life. Everyone has struggles, but the choice is up to you.

Dumb me, I should have been working with a guy who works with computers, software programming and circuit design over medical experts in their field (who I may add were Christians). Send me your card and I'll give you a call the next time I have an ailment.

 

[brightmorningstar]

jennimatts,

Not all Christians of course, but yes, the majority of "Christians" do think of transsexual people in terms like abomination.

But none that I know, and from many churches. Our battle is not against flesh and blood but against dark spiritual forces that deny the truth.

Wouldn't all sin be an abomination to God, not just "Certain sinful acts"?

But sins aren’t people, and yes sin is abominable to God.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Sexual orientation refers to who one loves. "I am straight."

That’s humanism and not the love of God. “Love your neighbour as yourself does not mean have sex with them or sexual desires for them. Disciples of Christ are to love people as Christ loved, God’s love.

 

[brightmorningstar]

19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

 

[jennimatts]

Firstly the desire for same sex relationships is no more proven to be intrinsic than any other desire. Left handedness is used as an example, but that’s not as good an analogy as say the desire for other sexual relations such as adulterous, bestial or paedophile. None of these are proven to be intrinsic, and would the LGBT be happy for the paedophile to be made to behave opposite to what they claim is intrinsic, I doubt it.

I agree sexual desires for adultery, bestiality or paedophilia are not intrinsic any more than someone who desires to murder. But, this discussion isn't about same sex relationships or any sexual desire. Someone with gender dysphoria is seeking to make their identity whole.

If the transgender must change their physical sex to be in line with their gender feelings then ---censored by Christian Forums--- can change their sex to be in line as well.

I honestly don't believe this would work. If one doesn't have gender dysphoria but changes sex, they would almost certainly inflict gender dysphoria on themselves. There have been a few widely publicised cases of people who didn't truly have gender dysphoria going through sex reassignment, only later discovering it was a mistake. One has been quite vocal about the failure of the transition.

 

[jennimatts]

Having the approval of men is not what determines what is right and what is wrong.

Also, salvation is not of works, so simply serving God is not going to make you a Christian. You must trust God, meaning you serve him the way he wants to be served. God rejected Cain's offering because God requested animal sacrifices, yet Cain chose instead to sacrifice some stuff he grew out in the fields. There's nothing wrong with being a farmer, but that's not the sacrifice God asked for. Cain should have traded Abel for a lamb to sacrifice so that he could make the sacrifice to God that God asked for, instead of deciding himself what kind of sacrifice God wanted.

I for one am not seeking your approval. Rather it is my hope that Christians be careful not to turn away someone in need of salvation merely because they are transsexual.

I agree salvation is not of works. No offering or sacrifice can save us. None of us are righteous on our own ("There is none righteous, no, not one..."), it's only through believing (faith) in Jesus and being clothed in his righteousness that any can be righteous before God. ("...righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe).

I don't serve God expecting anything. I find great joy in serving God, knowing that he has saved me and I have received many blessings ("...everyone to whom much is given, much will be required..."). My desire to serve God is an expression of how very thankful I am for everything God has done for me.

 

[Traveller and Wiley]

I for one am not seeking your approval. Rather it is my hope that Christians be careful not to turn away someone in need of salvation merely because they are transsexual.

I would certainly hope not but, remember, the OP is referring to two men inside the church, claiming to be Christians. As such we have no choice but to discipline them.

Hopefully, the goal of discipline is repentence and restoration, but there must be discipline or else we become guilty not only of the sin of failing to discipline them, but also the sin of not loving them enough to correct them.

 

[jennimatts]

The OP includes both.

Only to those that are unwilling to recognize the clear difference between a persons gender identity and sexual desires.

Nope! only the one example, the transgendered one. The husband is a man having heterosexual relations with his wife. The wife is a post-op transsexual woman having heterosexual relations with her husband.

Exactly!

 

[jennimatts]

They're already "away". What are we supposed to do?

You sound like a Calvinist. Do you believe some people just cannot be saved because they aren't elected?

 

[jennimatts]

If a gender dysphoric were just someone 'pretending,' there would be a problem. But such is not the case. We will never agree on this, since you insist it is a matter of willful sin.

Allow me to clarify: my admonition for love and compassion in my previous posts applies to the treatment of those outside the body of Christ, who would likely (as I said) be driven away from God by harsh condemnation from Christians. Paul said, "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside."

And no, I'm not judging my fellow believers who believe gender dysphoria is a sin and/or the same thing as homosexuality -- I'm trying to help them realize that is it not.

My point as well (but I think you have stated it so much more clearly).

 

[Traveller and Wiley]

You sound like a Calvinist. Do you believe some people just cannot be saved because they aren't elected?

I believe that God decides who will be saved.

 

[Traveller and Wiley]

Only to those that are unwilling to recognize the clear difference between a persons gender identity and sexual desires.

Two guys living together in a sinful, sexual relationship, one of them pretending to be a woman in order to indulge his sin.

 

[jennimatts]

Being slammed with condemnation, hellfire and brimstone rarely draws anyone. Walls go up and no one listens any further. Honestly, I can see why so many lost and hurting souls want nothing to do with the Church today, whose members too often seem to have forgotten where they themselves came from.

I have seen multiple times that transpersons turn to other religions, and I believe being slammed with condemnation, hellfire and brimstone is one of the main reasons.

 

[Traveller and Wiley]

I have seen multiple times that transpersons turn to other religions, and I believe being slammed with condemnation, hellfire and brimstone is one of the main reasons.

I believe the fact that the other religions allow them to embrace their sin is the main reason. What is the point of Christianity if not to share the Gospel with sinners?

 

[brightmorningstar]

Cuddles222

Is it true that just not the transgendered think, feel, and react, as those opposite their sex, but that heterosexuals who come into contact with them, naturally and unconsciously respond to them as if they already were the opposite sex?

Is this not the daily torture that the transgendered endure on a daily basis? Perhaps the homosexuals are a bit different, but this thread is concerning the transgendered. Perhaps the conservative Christians and conservative non-Christians can deal with the homosexuals better, I don't know.

Perhaps? No perhaps about it.
As to the thread and those with gender dysphoria, the biggest problem is LGBT its influence on the thinking. We should honour our bodies, they have been purchased by His blood and at a price. One needs to focus on serving Him and not ones own sexual desires. I know Christians who have not been able to marry because they have not been able to find someone willing. Naturally they are disappointed in that, but they know who they are in Christ and serve Christ in their situation. The problem with the world is its god is sex, thus sexual desires must be met and anyone who disagrees is hateful. Bad argument, if millions of Christians can live celibate and serve God joyfully so can any other Christian.

 

[CocoaBean]

The problem with the world is its god is sex, thus sexual desires must be met and anyone who disagrees is hateful. I'm not sure the only problem (or god) in this world is sex, although it is certainly one of them. Maybe you could clarify what you mean by "sexual desires"? Do you mean "the desire to have sex"? Sex is usually the last thing on the mind of the men and women with Gender Dysphoria that I have met.
Bad argument, if millions of Christians can live celibate and serve God joyfully so can any other Christian.


Still not sure where you're going with that argument. Does this include those with Gender Dysphoria who undergo transition and SRS, then chose to remain celibate the rest of their lives?

*

 

[David Brider]

Two guys living together in a sinful, sexual relationship, one of them pretending to be a woman in order to indulge his sin.

A trans-woman is not someone "pretending to be a woman." She is a woman.

And what sin is she "indulging" in?

David.

 

[Traveller and Wiley]

A trans-woman is not someone "pretending to be a woman." She is a woman.

No, he isn't a woman.

And what sin is she "indulging" in?

The same ones we've been talking about since the OP.

 

[David Brider]

No, he isn't a woman.

Nope, you're wrong. A transsexual person who used to be a man is now a woman. A transsexual person who used to be a woman is now a man.

The same ones we've been talking about since the OP.

Which are? Be specific.

David.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Cocoabean,

Still not sure where you're going with that argument. Does this include those with Gender Dysphoria who undergo transition and SRS, then chose to remain celibate the rest of their lives?

Apart from any other Christian... I am not sure about anyone else.