Transfiguration

[BrotherJJ]

A very interesting read on the nature of the word vision.
I do not think you can label the vision as a glimpse of a future event though,
because of one more verse in Luke that Mt and Mk do not mention.
Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias
talking with him.
Mark 9:4 And Elijah appeared to them with Moses,
and they were talking with Jesus.
Luke 9:
30 And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah,
31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was
about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

So we see from Luke's information the content of what was discussed in the
conversation that all 3 accounts mention. It is a now event, speaking of what
is about to take place.
As to the resurrection, of course, Elijah never died. What about Moses? I dunno.
Just Moses being Moses I guess. One possible explanation would be from Mt.
Matthew 27:
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom;
and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had
fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the
holy city and appeared to many.

Strange days! Interesting topic of discussion, which is incomplete and lacking
without Peter's take on the event.
2 Peter 1
16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice
came to Him from the Excellent Glory: This is My beloved Son, in whom
I am well pleased.
18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him
on the holy mountain.
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed
as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning
star rises in your hearts;
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God
spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.


The only problem I have with this statement is that anyone who exercises
this so called freedom to promote what they believe is that there is a true
or false way to support what you are promoting. Allow me to give an example.
I have had people cite a NT passage of a parable, provide 'their interpretation
of the parable' (since yes, a parable must be interpreted) and actually think
they have made a point. This is absurd!
If you cannot support your position with words of a prophet, an apostle,
a psalmist, wisdom or law, your position is vain. "Let every matter be
established upon the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses", because
"no prophetic scripture can be of a private interpretation".
That said, the discussion was wholly informative and edifying and I
appreciate the way the matter was discussed.
In closing, I would add that the voice of God being heard upon a "holy mount"
from the "excellent glory" reminds me of Sinai.
Deuteronomy 4:
32 For ask now concerning the days that are past, which were before you,
since the day that God created man on the earth, and ask from one end of
heaven to the other, whether any great thing like this has happened, or like
it has been heard.
33 Did any people ever hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst
of the fire, as you have heard, and live?

As to the resurrection, of course, Elijah never died. What about Moses? I dunno.

Deut 34:5 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord.
(MY NOTE: Scripture records Moses death here)

I posted
People to include you & myself are free to believe & promote whatever they believe.

You replied
The only problem I have with this statement is that anyone who exercises
this so called freedom to promote what they believe is that there is a true
or false way to support what you are promoting. Allow me to give an example.
I have had people cite a NT passage of a parable, provide 'their interpretation
of the parable' (since yes, a parable must be interpreted) and actually think
they have made a point. This is absurd!
If you cannot support your position with words of a prophet, an apostle,
a psalmist, wisdom or law, your position is vain. "Let every matter be
established upon the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses",

Brother Monardo
I provided this verse:

Matt 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
(MY NOTE: Jesus say's it was a vision. I provided the KJ dictionary link that defines a VISION. I provided these TWO verses as well:
1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (Christ was the FIRST to be resurrected)

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (Here again scripture proclaims Christ to be the FIRST to be resurrected)

Additionally, I stand behind my belief that everyone is entitled to believe & promote what they believe, In the end, we will ALL answer for our own (& only our own) beliefs & actions. Best wishes, JJ.

 

[concretecamper]

It was not because he was born of Mary, that he is the Son of God. He did not BECOME the Son of God. His body was of this temporal existence, but he was the Son of God, even apart from this existence.

of course He did not become God. To be eternal means that His incarnation is ever present just as his sacrifice to save many is ever present (just as @Carl Emerson posted) just as His existence before He created us is ever present. It is a mystery for sure.

 

[Hawkins]

Vison simply means it's not a physical resurrection of Moses and Elijah. It is rather a "soul recognizing soul" situation. Images could be manifested at the soul/spiritual level, that's why it's visually different when the disciples (i.e., their souls) "see" it.

 

[BrotherJJ]

A very interesting read on the nature of the word vision.
I do not think you can label the vision as a glimpse of a future event though,
because of one more verse in Luke that Mt and Mk do not mention.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words - Vision:

[ 3,,G3701, optasia ]
(a late form of opsis, "the act of seeing"), from optano, "to See, a coming into view," denotes a "vision" in Luke 1:22; Luke 24:23; Acts 26:19; 2 Corinthians 12:1.

(MY NOTE: Vines notes 15 contributing English to Greek translators & will provide names & credentials, when requested in writing with a postage paid return envelope.

The only problem I have with this statement is that anyone who exercises
this so called freedom to promote what they believe is that there is a true
or false way to support what you are promoting. Allow me to give an example.
I have had people cite a NT passage of a parable, provide 'their interpretation
of the parable' (since yes, a parable must be interpreted) and actually think
they have made a point. This is absurd!
If you cannot support your position with words of a prophet, an apostle,
a psalmist, wisdom or law, your position is vain. "Let every matter be
established upon the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses", because
"no prophetic scripture can be of a private interpretation".

Matt 17:9 - VISION In addition to the KJV version I cited:
A few versions/translators that record this verse as a vision. English Standard Version, Douay-Rheims 1899 Edition, Darby Translation, 1599 Geneva Bible, Young's Literal Translation all say VISION. Onto the 2-3 witness verse shared with me. I want to be clear on how I drew my conclusion. I cited 2 verses (there are more) on Jesus being the FIRST to be resurrected. Based on thi,s I don't believe we can see a resurrected Moses, pre Christs sin atoning Death)

 

[Carl Emerson]

Behind this exchange of views is the basic question.

Was the atonement through the cross at the spilling of His blood timeless or chronological?

Jesus raised the dead before the Cross.

For Moses and Elijah to be conversing with Jesus, they were clearly alive.

The Greek text does not support the suggestion that Jesus was not transfigured.

Have we insisted on 'linear thinking' and demanded that the event did not happen physically but was just an impression planted by God in minds?

And in so doing missed the mystery of the timelessness of the Cross.

 

[BrotherJJ]

Matt 17:9 - VISION In addition to the KJV version I cited:
A few versions/translators that record this verse as a vision. English Standard Version, Douay-Rheims 1899 Edition, Darby Translation, 1599 Geneva Bible, Young's Literal Translation all say VISION.

Onto the 2-3 witness verse shared with me. I want to be clear on how I drew my conclusion. I cited 2 verses (1 Cor 15:20 & 23, there are more) on Jesus being the FIRST to be resurrected. Based on this I don't believe we can see a resurrected Moses, pre Christs sin atoning Death.

Point 2:
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words - Vision:

[ 3,,G3701, optasia ]
(a late form of opsis, "the act of seeing"), from optano, "to See, a coming into view," denotes a "vision" in Luke 1:22; Luke 24:23; Acts 26:19; 2 Corinthians 12:1.

(MY NOTE: Vines notes 15 contributing English to Greek translators & will provide names & credentials, when requested in writing with a postage paid return envelope.

Finally:
The Elijah & Lazarus accounts weren't resurrections, they were resuscitations. They were returned to their mortal (not incorruptible) bodies, as they each died again. Jesus resurrection & every believers resurrection are eternal.

 

[Minister Monardo]

I want to be clear on how I drew my conclusion. I cited 2 verses (there are more) on Jesus being the FIRST to be resurrected. Based on thi,s I don't believe we can see a resurrected Moses, pre Christs sin atoning Death)

JJ,
The firstfruits does not mean 'first' chronologically. The firstfruits are holiness
to God. The Lord claimed the firstborn males of Israel and their flocks and herds
as His property. The feast of Pentacost is the feast of firstfruits. That does not
mean that it is the first feast, as that is Passover/unleavened bread.
It does not mean that Jesus had to be the first to be resurrected.
John 11:
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection
at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me,
though he may die, he shall live.
26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God,
who is to come into the world.”

The Lord had this conversation with Martha just before raising Lazarus. He also
raised a young man from Nain, and a young maiden also. Again, not about
chronology here. It is what belongs to God alone, and the authority that only
the Son of God holds.
John 10:
17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may
take it again.
18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself.
I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.
This command I have received from My Father.”

Anyway, I am only trying to provide a more detailed discussion of firstfruits for
everyone on the forum. It does not mean that Jesus had to be the first to be raised.
Many saints around Jerusalem were resurrected at the time that the veil in the temple
rent in two. I also posted those versed from Mt 27. I had no problem with your
use of the term vision, so there was no need for you to defend that point to me
in your previous post. Your conclusion that the vision on the mount of transfiguration
had to be a future event is based on this flawed understanding of firstfruits. I know
that the word translated can be used for first, such as firstborn, but I also showed
from Luke's account that Moses and Elijah discussed the Lord's imminent departure
with Him. It was a now event proceeding the crucifixion which was about to take place.
Peace

 

[Eloy Craft]

Was the atonement through the cross at the spilling of His blood timeless or chronological?

Timeless
That is very scriptural.
Encompassed in the passage written by John in the book Revelation.
Rev 13:8

and all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus is an eternal being. Everything about Him and His earthly life is eternal.

 

[BrotherJJ]

JJ,
The firstfruits does not mean 'first' chronologically. The firstfruits are holiness
to God. The Lord claimed the firstborn males of Israel and their flocks and herds
as His property. The feast of Pentacost is the feast of firstfruits. That does not
mean that it is the first feast, as that is Passover/unleavened bread.
It does not mean that Jesus had to be the first to be resurrected.
mean that Jesus had to be the first to be raised.

Minister Monardo,
I shared resurrection specific verses (I made no comments on firstborn males or feasts) from 1 Cor 15:20 & 23. Find - The Fact of Christ’s Resurrection & The Order of Resurrection. Here:
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - Amplified Bible

You're firstfruit analysis is deeply flawed. Pentecost isn't the feast of firstfruits. Anyone here interested in what the feast of firstfruits is, can open this link:
First Fruits A Resurrection Shadow

BTW: In post #14 you shared the following with me.
Matthew 27:
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom;
and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had
fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the
holy city and appeared to many.

Minister Monardo
These verses support my position as well. Verse 52 & 53 dead saints RAISED out of the graves AFTER His resurrection.

Finally:
1 Cor 15:
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(MY NOTE: Christ is RISEN from the dead & is the firstfruits of every believer that had died)

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(MY NOTE: Vs 21 context is resurrection, Vs 22 Because of Adams sin all men die, because of Christs sin payment all men will be resurrected, Vs 23 Christ was the FIRST to be RESURRECTED!) Shalom, JJ.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Timeless
That is very scriptural.
Encompassed in the passage written by John in the book Revelation.
Rev 13:8

and all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Cause-and-effect sequence, but timeless.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Many don't understand that Jesus' humanity was glorified from conception. To a Catholic I could say His soul was glorified from conception. Jesus soul always was in the same state as the Saints in heaven. Because Protestants don't believe in the community of Saints in heaven its difficult to conceptualize.
In the light of the glory of Jesus' human soul the apostles could see Elijah and Moses who were on the mountain top. Symbol of Paradise.
The Transfiguration is Jesus letting His glory be seen.
Elijah and Moses could be seen because their bodies were like Jesus'. In a transfigured state.
Immortal but passable.

 

[Carl Emerson]

OK some very thoughtful offerings thanks.

For me one of the precious truths that comes out of this matter is that the Cross is occurring now.

In fact it is occurring during every now in history.

So I have learned - when the way is rough and the burden seems heavy - to stop, kneel before the cross - release to Jesus all but the easy burden and light yoke that He invites me to carry - I literally take the stress in my hands and leave it with Him on the Cross.

I consider the event of the Cross happening before me is as real as the chair I usually sit on.

To me this is a central truth, rarely preached, but critical to my wellbeing.

 

[concretecamper]

To a Catholic I could say His soul was glorified from conception.

True. His entire life from the moment of conception, every act of His life, living in the will of the Father, repaired the damage done by sinful humanity.

 

[Eloy Craft]

True. His entire life from the moment of conception, every act of His life, living in the will of the Father, repaired the damage done by sinful humanity.

Yes indeed. He sanctified human life. He sanctified working for a living, eating, and like you said every act of His life sanctified that activity. He really did make all things new. Thank you.

 

[BrotherJJ]

JJ,
The firstfruits does not mean 'first' chronologically. It does not mean that Jesus had to be the first to be resurrected.

The Order of Resurrection
1 Cor 15:20 But now [as things really are] Christ has in fact been raised from the dead, [and He became] the first fruits [that is, the first to be resurrected with an incorruptible, immortal body, foreshadowing the resurrection] of those who have fallen asleep [in death].
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - Amplified Bible

(MY NOTE: The brackets above are placed by the Amplified Bible translators (not me) the reference to first fruits in this verse is: Christ was the first to be RESURRECTED.

Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the [g]faithful and trustworthy Witness, the [h]Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who [always] loves us and who [has once for all] freed us [or washed us] from our sins by His own blood (His sacrificial death)
(MY NOTE: Jesus Christ the Firstborn of the dead. Put another way, Jesus Christ is the first fruit of RESURRECTION.)

Col 1:18 He is also the head [the life-source and leader] of the body, the [e]church; and He is the beginning, [f]the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will occupy the first place [He will stand supreme and be preeminent] in everything.
Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 1 - Amplified Bible

(MY NOTE: Jesus was the FIRSTBORN/resurrected from the dead. Jesus is PREEMINENT in all things within our realm:

Creation: Jn 1:3 & 10, Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6 - Redemption: Gal 3:13, Rev 5:9, Col 1:14, Rom3:24

Resurrection: 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Jn 11:25, Acts 4:33, 1 Pet 1:3 & 3:21

Mediation: 1 Tim 2:5, Heb 8:6, 9:15, - 12:24 - Judgment: Jn 5:22, Rom 2:16, 2 Tim 4:1.

 

[prodromos]

Moses and Elijah also represent the Law and the Prophets, which testify of Christ.

 

[The Liturgist]

Moses and Elijah also represent the Law and the Prophets, which testify of Christ.

You always have the best and most definitive theological insights on the topics to which we are blessed by your contribution. Truly you have, more than most, an Orthodox phronema.

 

[Jipsah]

Your belief elevates Mary to being part of the trinity

Not at all. But she is the God Bearer, and thus utterly unique in human history. The standard Protestant "nothing special about Mary" position seems to me to betray a lack of understanding of the meaning of the Incarnation.

 

[Jipsah]

It was not because he was born of Mary, that he is the Son of God.

Of course. I know of no one who thinks otherwise.

He did not BECOME the Son of God. His body was of this temporal existence, but he was the Son of God, even apart from this existence.

Wholly God and wholly man, inseparable. When one starts to trying to take our Lord to bits because the idea of the Incarnation is a little too much to process the result is never good.

 

[Jipsah]

Was the atonement through the cross at the spilling of His blood timeless or chronological?

I would say timeless, in that God transcends time. Everything set right from the Fall to our Lord's Return.

Jesus raised the dead before the Cross.
For Moses and Elijah to be conversing with Jesus, they were clearly alive.
The Greek text does not support the suggestion that Jesus was not transfigured.

Yes, yes, and yes.

Have we insisted on 'linear thinking' and demanded that the event did not happen physically but was just an impression planted by God in minds?

We all have an annoying habit of assuming that God is bound by time as we are. That's simply untrue. "Before Abraham was I Am."

And in so doing missed the mystery of the timelessness of the Cross.

With everything set right! Praise be to God!