Traditional Liturgy in Contemporary Language

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

So, this isn't addressed so much to practitioners of contemporary evangelical worship as those of us in churches that have mixed/blended worship with the traditional form and basic wording of the liturgy but with contemporary language- I'm looking at you LSB DS IV, Common Worship, and ELW.

The first minute is pretty much how I feel:

An Honest Prayer - YouTube[/embed]

 

[All Souls]

I love Common Worship.

 

[ebia]

So, this isn't addressed so much to practitioners of contemporary evangelical worship as those of us in churches that have mixed/blended worship with the traditional form and basic wording of the liturgy but with contemporary language- I'm looking at you LSB DS IV, Common Worship, and ELW. The first minute is pretty much how I feel: An Honest Prayer - YouTube[/embed]

eh?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

eh?

Basically that the traditional liturgy when done in contemporary English is fine, but when done in idiomatic English it just sounds silly.

 

[MKJ]

Basically that the traditional liturgy when done in contemporary English is fine, but when done in idiomatic English it just sounds silly.

I think what people sometimes fail to realize is that the "archaic" language used is older liturgies wasn't idiomatic either.

 

[Keachian]

I think what people sometimes fail to realize is that the "archaic" language used is older liturgies wasn't idiomatic either.

I think this misunderstanding about the difference between idiomaticism and contemporary language sometimes fuels the KJVO claims that the KJV was never contemporary in its language, it was never idiomatic but it certainly was contemporary.

 

[Tomyris]

"He loves us yeah yeah yeah....

"We all live in eccesiastical union" <Yellow Submarine>

"It's been a hard day's fast...."

I will stop now.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

So, this isn't addressed so much to practitioners of contemporary evangelical worship as those of us in churches that have mixed/blended worship with the traditional form and basic wording of the liturgy but with contemporary language- I'm looking at you LSB DS IV, Common Worship, and ELW.

The first minute is pretty much how I feel:

An Honest Prayer - YouTube[/embed]

We used DS IV this morning; it is a contemporary English of the first "Lutheran" setting of the Mass use in Sweden. The musical score is very much removed from what it would have been in the 15-1600's in Sweden too. The only criticism I have for this setting is that I don't like it. It and DS V are a bit "low" for me; and I don't like that the Ordinary Canticles are paraphrases, not translations. Theologically, it's adiaphora so there is no real grounds to oppose their use; but that does not mean we have to like it.

My favorite remains DS III; the traditional language and music, and this is a true "High Mass".

Do you remember LW?... what a liturgical, musical and literary mess.

The recent re-translation of the Catholic Mass shows that they realized that 1970's translations appealed to popularity as much as they did to accuracy; the ball bounces back though, and today both of our Churches have striven for more accuracy. That begs the question; why paraphrases in DS IV?

 

[Tigger45]

We use the NIV which wouldn't be my first pick but it's not a deal breaker for me either. I would prefer a stronger more literal contemporary translation which would still be readily understood by the common listener yet sends a more powerful message.

 

[MKJ]

I think this misunderstanding about the difference between idiomaticism and contemporary language sometimes fuels the KJVO claims that the KJV was never contemporary in its language, it was never idiomatic but it certainly was contemporary.

I tend to characterize it, and the Book of Common Prayer, as poetry. The way the language was constructed was just not the way people construct everyday speech, even when they do it fairly self-consciously.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

We use the NIV which wouldn't be my first pick but it's not a deal breaker for me either. I would prefer a stronger more literal contemporary translation which would still be readily understood by the common listener yet sends a more powerful message.

Have you checked out the God's Word translation? It's very much contemporary English but not really idiomatic. The translation philosophy is eclectic, depending on the book, genre, phrasing, so at points it's closer to formal equivalence ("literal") and at others to paraphrase, but from my knowledge of Greek it seems to be superior in a number of ways in rendering the Greek into full, complete, contemporary (but not idiomatic) English.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Have you checked out the God's Word translation? It's very much contemporary English but not really idiomatic. The translation philosophy is eclectic, depending on the book, genre, phrasing, so at points it's closer to formal equivalence ("literal") and at others to paraphrase, but from my knowledge of Greek it seems to be superior in a number of ways in rendering the Greek into full, complete, contemporary (but not idiomatic) English.

Oh, that's good to hear. I read it only when I'm comparing verses in many translations, but I do often find I like it.

As for your MP video - yikes! I can see where something yes, can sound just silly. I don't like "idiomatic" translations, music, or anything else. The Message is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.

But I had never even conceived of an idiomatic liturgy.

(I'm currently trying to deal with it in Greek, which is beautiful but ... I need a lot of work, lol)

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Yeah, I went to a church back in Maryland where the confession of sins was a prayer on behalf of the birds and trees and flowers for the bad things we'd done to them.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yeah, I went to a church back in Maryland where the confession of sins was a prayer on behalf of the birds and trees and flowers for the bad things we'd done to them.

SERIOUSLY???? (no :jawdrop: smiley)

 

[All Souls]

Yeah, I went to a church back in Maryland where the confession of sins was a prayer on behalf of the birds and trees and flowers for the bad things we'd done to them.

What was the context for this; it could be that of raising awareness of environmental stewardship.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

What was the context for this; it could be that of raising awareness of environmental stewardship.

Exactly what I said: it was part of the confession of sins that opens every Lutheran service. The standard text is:

Most merciful God, we confess that we are by nature sinful and unclean. We have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We justly deserve your present and eternal punishment. For the sake of Your Son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us. Forgive us, renew us, and lead us, so that we may delight in Your will and walk in Your ways to the glory of Your holy name. Amen.

The pattern was basically the same up until the second to last sentence, where instead of asking for God's forgiveness (the whole point of the confession) we instead asked God to help out the rivers and trees and flowers.

 

[All Souls]

If you could provide the text that would be helpful, I don't really see what the problem is.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Exactly what I said: it was part of the confession of sins that opens every Lutheran service. The standard text is:

Most merciful God, we confess that we are by nature sinful and unclean. We have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We justly deserve your present and eternal punishment. For the sake of Your Son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us. Forgive us, renew us, and lead us, so that we may delight in Your will and walk in Your ways to the glory of Your holy name. Amen.

The pattern was basically the same up until the second to last sentence, where instead of asking for God's forgiveness (the whole point of the confession) we instead asked God to help out the rivers and trees and flowers.

I'm all for including our injustice against creation as part of our confession, but without actually the petition for forgiveness it seems entirely pointless. It's just an exercise in nothing.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[All Souls]

I'm all for including our injustice against creation as part of our confession, but without actually the petition for forgiveness it seems entirely pointless. It's just an exercise in nothing.

-CryptoLutheran

Exactly my thinking

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I'm all for including our injustice against creation as part of our confession, but without actually the petition for forgiveness it seems entirely pointless. It's just an exercise in nothing.

-CryptoLutheran

Exactly my thinking

Well that was exactly the problem. The confession of sins was not followed by a petition for forgiveness, but a prayer on behalf of the rivers and trees.

However, the corporate confession of sins is not a time, I think, for the enumeration of particular sins. Not everyone sins in the same way; many people (especially in the congregation's affluent, Maryland neighborhood) are particularly conscientious about environmental studentship. But we have all failed to love God with our whole heart and to love our neighbors as ourselves- the summation of the two realms of right living. To begin enumerating particular sins in corporate, public confession is to open a huge can of worms.

If the pastor knows (based upon good pastoral care through counseling and private confession) that there are several sins that plague the congregation, or which the congregation does but seems particularly ignorant of, the place to address those in public is the sermon. That's why my pastor has given particularly ardent sermons recently on gluttony (something we're ignorant of, but is quite visible) and inappropriate contentography (something people widely but secretly acknowledge). To include either of those in the confession of sins would be no service to, for instance, my wife.