Totus Tuus sum Maria

[Bulldog]

If it was holy where God resided for a few moments, imagine where God resided for 9 months.

In what way was Mary made holy?

 

[SteveR2021]

Yes it is wise but I'll advise you caution. You can not debate their doctrine in there any more than they can debate us in here. It matters not that you've been invited. One person's invitation does not give your freedom to debate in OBOB. By all means feel free to go over for further discussion but realize that more than InnerPhyre will be there and you will not be permitted to debate/defend your beliefs. OBOB only gives them the freedom/ability to give their beliefs without being reported. There will be things that you will disagree with, feel free, just don't voice them in a debative manner.

Thank you for the caution. I did realize that.

 

[mesue]

I thought it was very gracious of InnerPhyre to invite us to his forum for further discussion. I'm sure we'd do well to learn from the Catholics on Catholic doctrine...isn't that wiser than discussing it amongst ourselves and maybe getting it wrong?

We're not all discussing what we think we know, some of us were Roman Catholic and know the doctrine already.

 

[SteveR2021]

We're not all discussing what we think we know, some of us were Roman Catholic and know the doctrine already.

Sounds good. Those of you who were Roman Catholic would, naturally, be well informed. My point was in defense of InnerPhyre.

 

[mesue]

Sounds good. Those of you who were Roman Catholic would, naturally, be well informed. My point was in defense of InnerPhyre.

I understand and appreciate your taking his defense.

 

[Terri]

Thank you for anyone who will provide the scripture that we are to pray to her, where it is stated she (along with other saints) is an intercessor between us and God, and why we should regard her as highly as we should, all the while considering her mother to us.. I am sure many on this board are willing to listen.

Well, as I'm sure you are aware, there is no scripture that says we are to pray to Mary or to ask her to pray for us either. There is no scripture that says that we are to interact at all with those that are absent from the body.

Until I am biblically told to do so...... seems to me like God is saying we are equal.

Matthew 1246While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”[g] 48He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

That is exactly what God is saying. ALL believers are Jesus' brother and sister and mother.

 

[BT]

That is exactly what God is saying. ALL believers are Jesus' brother and sister and mother.

Sure are, and even further there is no "rank" amongst believers.

Matthew 23:8-11 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The first part of this verse shows that there is no respect of nationality
The second part shows that there is no respect of wealth/position
The third part shows that there is no respect of gender
The last part shows we are all equal (which is the summation of the prior parts)

We are furthermore forbidden to converse with the dead

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

The last part means "Shall one consult the dead on behalf of the living?" the point being "Consult the living God for the living". The dead can't help you anyway:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

I got your point BT.
Here is the question. Is that verse dealing with the dead who are in hell or the dead in heaven. I know that the RCC defends themselves by saying that those saints are not dead but up in heaven working with the Lord.
So really they are not dead but living in heaven with the Lord.
I know my daughter is up there right now because of Psalms 116v15. I would never pray to my daughter even though she is a saint. Can the saints in heaven hear us?
I would think not. The reason is that they are with the Lord in perfect fellowship. Why would they long for matters of the earth when they are in perfect fellowship with the Lord?

1 John 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

 

[BT]

I got your point BT.
Here is the question. Is that verse dealing with the dead who are in hell or the dead in heaven. I know that the RCC defends themselves by saying that those saints are not dead but up in heaven working with the Lord.
So really they are not dead but living in heaven with the Lord.
I know my daughter is up there right now because of Psalms 116v15. I would never pray to my daughter even though she is a saint. Can the saints in heaven hear us?
I would think not. The reason is that they are with the Lord in perfect fellowship. Why would they long for matters of the earth when they are in perfect fellowship with the Lord?

1 John 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

The verse in Ecclesiastes (which I think is the one that you are asking about) refers to the dead in general. Let me explain:

Actually you know I kick myself everytime I bring that verse to bear because I forget the next verse, which really does all the explaining for me...

(Speaking of the dead who know nothing from v.5 he goes on

Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

That's so critical that it needs to be said again!

"... neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun"

The dead (the verse speaking of those who have died..) know nothing neither have they ever anything to do with what goes on here (under the sun). So it matters not really whether they are in heaven or hell, either way they have nothing to do with anything that goes on down here.

No the saints in heaven can't hear us. If you consider the story of the rich man and Lazaras you'll see that the rich man said "Send someone back to warn my brothers", which shows us that he could neither effect them nor see them, all that he could see was that which was in the realm of death; paradise on one side torment on the other.

I have no doubt at all that your little one is in heaven. In fact I know it for a fact and so does the Bible. But she can't see us, nor hear us. You're right, why in the world would she care about what's going on down here now that she is in the very presence of God? Even the angels who have ever been with him can only kneel at his feet crying "Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts:.." (Isa. 6:3), and she is right there with them.

So it matters not at all whether they are alive in the presence of the LORD or alive in torment, either way they have nothing to do with us and to send prayers to anyone else... )))shudder(((

In the "model prayer" Jesus tells us exactly whom we should be praying to

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Then if you take the example from the Apostles you see that Christ is added to the prayer now being resurrected and sitting on the right-hand..

1 Corinthians 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:2-3 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

Galatians 1:3-5 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

NEVER is prayer made to ANY OTHER than God the Father and Jesus Christ
(as a side note, also notice that God the Holy Spirit is not prayed to.. that is a topic for a whole other thread though..)

 

[thereselittleflower]

We're not all discussing what we think we know, some of us were Roman Catholic and know the doctrine already.

Well, of course, many of us in OBOB would debate this point, but this is your forum and would not be the place to have this discussion. But if you would be interested in getting together sometime in the future to discuss and compare, I would be very open to doing this.


Peace

 

[Terri]

Sure are, and even further there is no "rank" amongst believers.

Matthew 23:8-11 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The first part of this verse shows that there is no respect of nationality
The second part shows that there is no respect of wealth/position
The third part shows that there is no respect of gender
The last part shows we are all equal (which is the summation of the prior parts)

We are furthermore forbidden to converse with the dead

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

The last part means "Shall one consult the dead on behalf of the living?" the point being "Consult the living God for the living". The dead can't help you anyway:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Great points BT!!

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Well, of course, many of us in OBOB would debate this point, but this is your forum and would not be the place to have this discussion. But if you would be interested in getting together sometime in the future to discuss and compare, I would be very open to doing this.


Peace

Am I correct in assuming the point in this quote means.........Any ex catholics who know the catholic doctrine, or did I miss somthing?

GEL

 

[thereselittleflower]

Am I correct in assuming the point in this quote means.........Any ex catholics who know the catholic doctrine, or did I miss somthing?

GEL

Hi GEL

I would be happy to participate in such a future discussion with anyone who is ex-Catholic . . . I was not intending to limit it to just one person if that is what you were asking about.


Peace

 

[aReformedPatriot]

NEVER is prayer made to ANY OTHER than God the Father and Jesus Christ
(as a side note, also notice that God the Holy Spirit is not prayed to.. that is a topic for a whole other thread though..)

ooooh Good Point. Thatd be an interesting thread to read.

Good post all around, Kudos.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Hi GEL

I would be happy to participate in such a future discussion with anyone who is ex-Catholic . . . I was not intending to limit it to just one person if that is what you were asking about.


Peace

Ok, so let me ask you. Please be honest with me. Do you mean to tell me that Catholics in OBOB debate the fact that Ex-Catholics DON'T have the wisdom and the knowledge of the RCC they were brought up in? Meaning, because we are no longer catholic, we could not possibly know what we are talking about as far as RC doctrine goes?

Thanks
GEL

 

[thereselittleflower]

Ok, so let me ask you. Please be honest with me. Do you mean to tell me that Catholics in OBOB debate the fact that Ex-Catholics DON'T have the wisdom and the knowledge of the RCC they were brought up in? Meaning, because we are no longer catholic, we could not possibly know what we are talking about as far as RC doctrine goes?

Thanks
GEL

Hi Gel

I would be happy to answer your question honestly and as factually as I can from my perspective. Because I am answering your specific question, I do not want anyone to misconstrue it as debate in any way.

It has been my experience, after talking to many ex-Catholics, that when we talk about the Catholic faith, their understanding of the Catholic faith does not match up with the teaching of the Catholic Church in some fashion . . this is been my experience 100% of the time . . that does not mean that this is accross the board in all areas of the Catholic faith.

In speaking with other Catholics who talk to ex-Catholics, this has been their experience as well.

It is well known that catechesis last century, especially the later half, was quite poor in its content . . . people were able to excel in their catechetical classes, yet come out not understanding their Catholic faith very well.


This is all in answer to your very specific quesiton, not to debate anything anyone has said here . .just to help you understand better as you requested that I do.

It would be interesting to discuss this in more depth with any catholics and ex-catholics who would wish to at some future date.

I am very open to having someone demonstrate to me that my experience is skewed and not the norm.




Peace

 

[Terri]

Ok, so let me ask you. Please be honest with me. Do you mean to tell me that Catholics in OBOB debate the fact that Ex-Catholics DON'T have the wisdom and the knowledge of the RCC they were brought up in? Meaning, because we are no longer catholic, we could not possibly know what we are talking about as far as RC doctrine goes?

Thanks
GEL

I've read before in OBOB that "anyone that truely understood the teachings of the RCC would never leave it." So, if you have left it then you never really understood it.

It's the same type of reasoning that says that we shouldn't be able to discuss their errors in doctrine in here because we can't understand it because if we understood it then we wouldn't think it is wrong. OK, I'm feeling a little dizzy after going around in that circle!

 

[thereselittleflower]

I've read before in OBOB that "anyone that truely understood the teachings of the RCC would never leave it." So, if you have left it then you never really understood it.

It's the same type of reasoning that says that we shouldn't be able to discuss their errors in doctrine in here because we can't understand it because if we understood it then we wouldn't think it is wrong. OK, I'm feeling a little dizzy after going around in that circle!

It sure is a good thing then that you are all alone in that circle, I would hate to think what would happen if you were to collide withsomeone, as dizzy as you are . . you might both end up in the hospital!





Peace

 

[Iollain]

I can understand it, some people believe that Mary flies around the earth asking for statues and worship, and some people believe Frenchmen that think they are seeing Mary, when it it not Mary. Then what happens is totally against Scripture.

 

[Ginny]

It sure is a good thing then that you are all alone in that circle

I read inbetween the lines... believe me, they are not alone.

No matter how many classes you go to no one can give biblical evidence that we are supposed to put Mary on a pedestal. The best understanding that we received is Jesus was in the womb for 9 months so it must have been a Holy Place. Remember the man that was healed of blindness? His eyes (body) were specifically used so that Jesus could be glorified through miracles....and for that purpose only...Mary used her physical body (As a female) to provide a birthing home for Jesus and she was blessed b/c of this...it was an "honor"

Jesus 100% covers in the Bible all that we need to do (and not do) to live our lives according to His will through his instruction. As far as prayer, he strictly gave us a MODEL PRAYER. And guess what? Mary isn't included! No one else is either. If man was supposed to make up prayers about his earthly mother we would have been instructed to do so. If it were truly of the utmost importance to do these things, wouldn't have God told us? The same God that died for us? Can we not trust in Him alone for all that we need to do to live a Godly life...or do we go to others for instruction that is not based on God's word?

God is a jealous God. We do not have to go through anyone else but Him!!! We have that honor!!!!! His Word says so!!!! Isn't that enough?

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, Our life...
Mary all who seek your help experience your unfailing protection...
My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to Thee. ..
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as Thy property and possession........
Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy. Hail my life, my sweetness and my hope! ........
Full of grace are you,
Grace spilling over Heaven's boundaries
Into my world, living water, bread and wine,
The unmerited favor of God
That you come carrying to me,
Your arms always full of gifts..........
Jesus, my Lord and Savior, my Brother, King of Peace, I come to You
with Mary,