Total Depravity

[BNR32FAN]

And how did they do it? Give us the details.

Do you not know the definition of repentance/metanoia? Repentance is a change of mind, a change in direction. It’s making a 180 degree turn away from sin and towards God. When a person humbled himself to God and acknowledges that he is a sinner and turns to God for help God will provide the means to salvation.

 

[All Glory To God]

Did you read Luke 18:10-14? That’s the message I provided giving an example of the tax collector humbling himself.

Yes I did read it and of course I know what repentance means, the question is about how it is done.

I wouldn't be able to take what you have given me and evangelise the lost with it, unless it was the easy believism sign a card and your saved type. Try to imagine a lost person hearing what your saying, you are telling them what to do but no details how to get it done. The reason for this complete lack of direction for the potential new convert is your method of repentance is false, it is God that works in the heart of the lost and saves them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The reason for this complete lack of direction for the potential new convert is your method of repentance is false, it is God that works in the heart of the lost and saves them.

Which brings us full circle back to Revelation 2:20-21 again. Jesus wants Jezebel to repent but she doesn’t which is undeniable proof that repentance comes from our cooperation with God. It is not God’s work apart from our cooperation. If I tell someone to humble their self to God and turn to Him for help that really is self explanatory. Of course it doesn’t explain all that is necessary for salvation but we’re merely talking about repentance not what is necessary for salvation. If they don’t know the meaning of the word repent then I would explain it to them just like I explained it to you. When you say to someone turn away from your sin and turn to God anyone over the age of 4 years old will understand what your saying if they can understand English. I know because I’ve had this discussion with my daughter when she was 4 years old.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Ouch! I just didn't expect this topic to get almost 200 replies. I cannot possibly respond to everyone but I'll try my best to reply to the last 2 pages or so.

Yes I did read it and of course I know what repentance means, the question is about how it is done.

I wouldn't be able to take what you have given me and evangelise the lost with it, unless it was the easy believism sign a card and your saved type. Try to imagine a lost person hearing what your saying, you are telling them what to do but no details how to get it done. The reason for this complete lack of direction for the potential new convert is your method of repentance is false, it is God that works in the heart of the lost and saves them.

I agree! Repentance is done with a pure heart and it is done

Jesus said repent and believe in the gospel in Mark 1:15 he didn't just say, believe. Peter also said repent and be baptized in Acts 2:38. Protestants all over argue that Baptism isn't required for salvation but it always raises the question, why get baptized then? What baptism o
counts... etc..

Repentance on the other hand, is a natural and required part of salvation. You cannot be saved without first repenting to God in your renewed nature.

Christ himself also said in John 6:37 that I quoted in the OP "All the father gives me will come to me." In other words, we come to Jesus in repentance. All examples of Christ and the apostles saving people in the NT, people either came to God or the apostles in repentance. Even the jailer in Acts came to Paul in repentance. People use that to try to prove that "see you only have to believe" but, what did he do before Paul told him to believe the gospel? He repented to Paul in God's eyes.

But, I dislike in the church today that people say repentance isn't required for salvation all you need to do is accept Jesus. Well, how can you accept Jesus without first repenting of your sins? Jesus is the salvation of our souls and he rescues us, yes from our sins. We are NOT saved to continue in our sins for the rest of our lives or eternity. Our sins are supposed to be put to death while we were crucified along with Jesus. Yes, we will always sin while we're in the flesh but we're also constantly dying to sin. Gods sanctifying us.

 

[All Glory To God]

Which brings us full circle back to Revelation 2:20-21 again. Jesus wants Jezebel to repent but she doesn’t which is undeniable proof that repentance comes from our cooperation with God. It is not God’s work apart from our cooperation. If I tell someone to humble their self to God and turn to Him for help that really is self explanatory. Of course it doesn’t explain all that is necessary for salvation but we’re merely talking about repentance not what is necessary for salvation. If they don’t know the meaning of the word repent then I would explain it to them just like I explained it to you. When you say to someone turn away from your sin and turn to God anyone over the age of 4 years old will understand what your saying if they can understand English. I know because I’ve had this discussion with my daughter when she was 4 years old.

As you have pointed out we are not covering any new ground so now would probably be a fair time for us to stop unless some other points come up in the thread.

 

[BNR32FAN]

As you have pointed out we are not covering any new ground so now would probably be a fair time for us to stop unless some other points come up in the thread.

We’re not covering any new ground because you won’t address any scriptures I present or even try to answer any of the questions I ask. How can you reconcile Revelation 2:21 with your theology? Is Jesus expecting Jezebel to repent? Is Jezebel capable of repentance? And we already know the answer that she did not repent. She can’t be expected to repent if she is incapable of repentance and according to Calvin’s theology she can’t be capable of repentance and fail to do so because only the chosen are capable of repentance. This one verse by itself destroys Calvin’s theology.

 

[Neostarwcc]

We’re not covering any new ground because you won’t address any scriptures I present or even try to answer any of the questions I ask. How can you reconcile Revelation 2:21 with your theology? Is Jesus expecting Jezebel to repent? Is Jezebel capable of repentance? And we already know the answer that she did not repent. She can’t be expected to repent if she is incapable of repentance and according to Calvin’s theology she can’t be capable of repentance and fail to do so because only the chosen are capable of repentance. This one verse by itself destroys Calvin’s theology.

But he did address your scriptures. He just has a different interpretation of them than you do. As I'm sure, you have different interpretations of his.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But he did address your scriptures. He just has a different interpretation of them than you do. As I'm sure, you have different interpretations of his.

Where did he address Revelation 2:20-21?

 

[All Glory To God]

But he did address your scriptures. He just has a different interpretation of them than you do. As I'm sure, you have different interpretations of his.

That's right I did. Perhaps our fellow member was not paying attention and missed the post or is just wanting to argue?

Post 76 Total Depravity

 

[BNR32FAN]

That's right I did. Perhaps our fellow member was not paying attention and missed the post or is just wanting to argue?

Post 76 Total Depravity

well let’s re-examine the conversation and see if Revelation 2:20-21 was actually addressed. Keep in mind merely mentioning it is not addressing the questions I asked.

Bless you friend I would like to share a few verses. Let’s examine Revelation 2:20-21 together.


“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice Jesus’ expectation that Jezebel should repent because He is waiting patiently for her to do so but she does not. The idea here is that Jezebel has the ability to repent but chooses not to. Now let’s examine another very similar case in Romans 2:4-8.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Again God’s kindness and patience is leading them to repentance but because of their stubbornness to repent they are storing up for themselves God’s wrath and righteous judgement.

So why would Jesus give someone time to repent whom He knows is incapable of repentance? In the same manner why would God be kind and patient towards those whom He is “leading to repentance” if they are incapable of repentance? They cannot be storing up God’s wrath on judgement day if they will repent before judgement day because their sins will have been forgiven. The only way they can store up God’s wrath on judgement day is if they don’t repent.

Greetings.

I'm going to answer what I can remember from your post and that was repentance, partiality and justification.

Of course God is bias to some people but not in contradiction to scripture. The instructions to not be a respector of person is in regard to status and wealth. We are called to value a person by their character not influence or material possessions they have in society. However God definitely has distinction between those who has love as his chosen people. The twins before they were even born, Jacob and esau, one was shown Gods love the other his personal hostility.

I believe in the repence doctrine but the key question is how a person comes round to doing it. I believe God works in the broken persons heart and soul to renew them giving them life and the ability to recieve other spiritual blessings. I do not think the human heart by itself or in partnership can come to humble itself before God because of pride and sin thus no repentance. The opponents of total depravity cannot give a clear demonstration of how repentance can be accomplished without the sole work of God at his discretion, for his purpose.

Being in Christ is a early stage of the process. The people who will go on to be saved were chosen for salvation long before they were born or the world created. The father chooses who he desires to glorify him, the son sanctifies them and the Holy spirit seals them.

I feel like I need to ask this question again just by itself because I feel that it has been overlooked.

Is Jezebel capable of repentance?

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Well this scripture is actually addressing a church, affected by a sin.

This is a church we are talking about in revelation so not personal salvation.

That’s irrelevant to the question. I feel like your dodging the scriptures I provided that you specifically asked for. It’s a simple question. The implications in the context are clear but the problem is that these implications directly contradict Calvin’s doctrines. Keep in mind that it’s the scriptures that define doctrines not the other way around. I’m confident that you would agree. I should think that you would welcome such questions as these so as to test your beliefs. If our beliefs can’t stand up to the test of scripture then there’s a problem.

No you didn’t address Revelation 2:20-21 you kept dodging the question. So I’ll ask again. Was Jezebel capable of repentance? Who Jesus was addressing in this message is irrelevant to the question.

 

[rnmomof7]

Romans 8:28-29. What does God call us to? What does He choose us for?

This passage specifically states that God predestined humans to be conformed to the image of His Son. It is not saying that God predestines us either to be saved or to be condemned, and that we have no choice in the matter.

In other words, the election is for the purpose of our transformation. We are to be changed to reflect the Son of God. This transformation is then promised in the following verse (Rom. 8:30), in which Paul, the author, states that those whom God calls He also justifies (makes us righteous) and glorifies (sanctifies).

Thus we are not left to transform ourselves, but rather, God promises to accomplish this transformation by His power.

We would agree that man can not will himself to be transformed.. that is a work of God.. that transformation marks the salvation of a man ..God does not fail in His work..

 

[rnmomof7]

well let’s re-examine the conversation and see if Revelation 2:20-21 was actually addressed. Keep in mind merely mentioning it is not addressing the questions I asked.

No you didn’t address Revelation 2:20-21 you kept dodging the question. So I’ll ask again. Was Jezebel capable of repentance? Who Jesus was addressing in this message is irrelevant to the question.

...

Just biblical observation here.. no man can repent himself. ..repentance is a gift of God

 

[Neostarwcc]

...

Just biblical observation here.. no man can repent himself. ..repentance is a gift of God

Well put. Mankind in their natural state would rebel against God. That is how we as humans are naturally born. Paul says this over and over again in his letters.

 

[BNR32FAN]

...

Just biblical observation here.. no man can repent himself. ..repentance is a gift of God

My point for quoting Revelation 2:20-21 was to show that even those who are expected to repent are capable of refusing to comply.