Total Depravity

[SaintCody777]

From my experience it seems that all Christians agree that man is totally deprived they just disagree on the definition of the term. I’m not familiar with modern day pelagianists. They must be very small in numbers.

Which philosophy sounds more appealing to the human mind?:
"Man has a neutral free will and at most, partially depraved"
OR "Thanks to Adam's disobedience, man is totally depraved, their natural heart is wicked and with evil intent."
Most people who are Christians or claim to be one, are semi-Pelagian by default. Unlike Arminainism, semi-Pelagianism teaches that man is NOT totally depraved and man, himself, takes the first leap or leaps toward salvation with God's grace only intervening later on.
Does Joel Osteen or the similar, most popular preachers teach total depravity? What sorietology is the backbone of America's biggest semi-universalist religion cleverly dressed as "Christianity", Moralistic Therapuetic Deism?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Which philosophy sounds more appealing to the human mind?:
"Man has a neutral free will and at most, partially depraved"
OR "Thanks to Adam's disobedience, man is totally depraved, their natural heart is wicked and with evil intent."
Most people who are Christians or claim to be one, are semi-Pelagian by default. Unlike Arminainism, semi-Pelagianism teaches that man is NOT totally depraved and man, himself, takes the first leap or leaps toward salvation with God's grace only intervening later on.
Does Joel Osteen or the similar, most popular preachers teach total depravity? What sorietology is the backbone of America's biggest semi-universalist religion cleverly dressed as "Christianity", Moralistic Therapuetic Deism?

What sounds appealing to the human mind is irrelevant. There are numerous verses that indicate God’s expectation for repentance. The radical definition of total depravity in Calvinism is not based on actual bible verses it’s based on very loose translations from verses that do not actually state that a person is incapable of repentance and doesn’t take unto consideration the power of the gospel to provoke a response.

 

[com7fy8]

But Jesus does say He keeps His sheep.

Where does Jesus say this?

John 10:1-30 > He says we know His voice and will not follow another. And we have John 17:12.

Something I now think of is how sheep are kept as a flock . . . as a family . . . not as isolated individuals in their own free wills. But humans in sin tend to be each one's own person . . . one's own self. Ones tend to isolate with things they want and people they hope to use to get their pleasures and control and security for their pleasures. It is not a sinner's nature to seek our Heavenly Father and to become family with His children. Even if ones somehow get themselves to decide to choose Jesus, it can be in only a self-concerned way; and then ones can go on to not share with God, but keep Him at a distance while they try to control their own selves, while at times of prayer they hand Him a chore list and shopping list of some sort; but they do not personally submit to Him, in prayer, and then keep on submitting to Him and how He personally rules us in His peace (Colossians 3:15).

Only God can get through to us, and change us out of this and give us real correction (Hebrews 12:4-14), versus our own trying which is guaranteed to fail.

@Neostarwcc > I would say this is related to human depravity. But, like I say, maybe we should say total dependence . . . including after a person has trusted in Christ > Ephesians 1:12. Once Jesus has saved a person, he or she is no longer totally depraved, but is still totally dependent > 2 Corinthians 3:4-5.

 

[BNR32FAN]

John 10:1-30 > He says we know His voice and will not follow another. And we have John 17:12.

Something I now think of is how sheep are kept as a flock . . . as a family . . . not as isolated individuals in their own free wills. But humans in sin tend to be each one's own person . . . one's own self. Ones tend to isolate with things they want and people they hope to use to get their pleasures and control and security for their pleasures. It is not a sinner's nature to seek our Heavenly Father and to become family with His children. Even if ones somehow get themselves to decide to choose Jesus, it can be in only a self-concerned way; and then ones can go on to not share with God, but keep Him at a distance while they try to control their own selves, while at times of prayer they hand Him a chore list and shopping list of some sort; but they do not personally submit to Him, in prayer, and then keep on submitting to Him and how He personally rules us in His peace (Colossians 3:15).

Only God can get through to us, and change us out of this and give us real correction (Hebrews 12:4-14), versus our own trying which is guaranteed to fail.

@Neostarwcc > I would say this is related to human depravity. But, like I say, maybe we should say total dependence . . . including after a person has trusted in Christ > Ephesians 1:12. Once Jesus has saved a person, he or she is no longer totally depraved, but is still totally dependent > 2 Corinthians 3:4-5.

If this were true then John 15:6 and Galatians 5:4 would be impossible. Your only His sheep as long as you abide in Him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Even if ones somehow get themselves to decide to choose Jesus, it can be in only a self-concerned way; and then ones can go on to not share with God, but keep Him at a distance while they try to control their own selves, while at times of prayer they hand Him a chore list and shopping list of some sort; but they do not personally submit to Him, in prayer, and then keep on submitting to Him and how He personally rules us in His peace

This is only an assumption that is not supported by the verses in Colossians you provided.

 

[BNR32FAN]

John 10:1-30 > He says we know His voice and will not follow another. And we have John 17:12.

Something I now think of is how sheep are kept as a flock . . . as a family . . . not as isolated individuals in their own free wills. But humans in sin tend to be each one's own person . . . one's own self. Ones tend to isolate with things they want and people they hope to use to get their pleasures and control and security for their pleasures. It is not a sinner's nature to seek our Heavenly Father and to become family with His children. Even if ones somehow get themselves to decide to choose Jesus, it can be in only a self-concerned way; and then ones can go on to not share with God, but keep Him at a distance while they try to control their own selves, while at times of prayer they hand Him a chore list and shopping list of some sort; but they do not personally submit to Him, in prayer, and then keep on submitting to Him and how He personally rules us in His peace (Colossians 3:15).

Only God can get through to us, and change us out of this and give us real correction (Hebrews 12:4-14), versus our own trying which is guaranteed to fail.

@Neostarwcc > I would say this is related to human depravity. But, like I say, maybe we should say total dependence . . . including after a person has trusted in Christ > Ephesians 1:12. Once Jesus has saved a person, he or she is no longer totally depraved, but is still totally dependent > 2 Corinthians 3:4-5.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[com7fy8]

NOBODY can come to God unless God draws them and gives them a new heart. Why? Because mankind has been totally depraved by themselves ever since the fall. I could keep going on in the book of John but this is getting long enough,

Salvation is about how God is able, not how we humans have been able.

Even before the fall, Adam and Eve failed . . . while they were perfect creatures not born in sin.

Also, Jesus is the One who gave Himself for us, "an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (in Ephesians 5:2)

As sinners we were not able to sweetly please our Father to reconcile with us.

And our way to get ourselves to supposedly change would not be obedient how we needed. But Jesus is our way.

Jesus was the first to be obedient, and by His obedience humans will be made righteous > Romans 5:19.

 

[SaintCody777]

There are numerous verses that indicate God’s expectation for repentance.

That's why I believe in prevenient grace instead of the random, irresistible election of Calvinism.

The radical definition of total depravity in Calvinism is not based on actual bible verses it’s based on very loose translations from verses that do not actually state that a person is incapable of repentance and doesn’t take unto consideration the power of the gospel to provoke a response.

While Calvinists and Lutherans may be correct about man being totally depraved in thought, speech, word, and deed, they kind of contradict themselves when they believe that God gives "common grace" to people other than the elect. What's the point of "common grace" if God is not going to choose the reprobate anyways? Now, that is what I don't get.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That's why I believe in prevenient grace instead of the random, irresistible election of Calvinism.

While Calvinists and Lutherans may be correct about man being totally depraved in thought, speech, word, and deed, they kind of contradict themselves when they believe that God gives "common grace" to people other than the elect. What's the point of "common grace" if God is not going to choose the reprobate anyways? Now, that is what I don't get.

Well I see evanescent grace as a sort of plug in one of the many holes in Calvin’s theology. I think it would be a rather cruel and pointless joke on God’s part if He were to grant a person a temporary grace that would not result in salvation. Kind of a thought you had it but sike joke. I honestly don’t believe that God has that sort of humor.

 

[All Glory To God]

Some accompanying scripture for the topic:

Ephesians 2:3
among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.


Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

1 cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

1 pet 2:24
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.


Now then,how can a creature that is in this state be made right with the one Holy God?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Some accompanying scripture for the topic:

Ephesians 2:3
among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.


Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

1 cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

1 pet 2:24
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.


Now then,how can a creature that is in this state be made right with the one Holy God?

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭18:13-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Why was God so pleased with Enoch, Noah, Elijah, and Abraham? Was He pleased with what they had done or was He just pleased with what He had done? They were counted as being righteous by their faith. You’ll often see faith mentioned in a possessive form. Noah’s faith, Abraham’s faith, etc. Faith derives from the individual. God has given all men a measure of faith and they may exercise it as they please. Those who humble themselves to God will be welcomed by Him.

 

[Telesto]

Satan has his own brand of Christianity.

 

[All Glory To God]

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭18:13-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Why was God so pleased with Enoch, Noah, Elijah, and Abraham? Was He pleased with what they had done or was He just pleased with what He had done? They were counted as being righteous by their faith. You’ll often see faith mentioned in a possessive form. Noah’s faith, Abraham’s faith, etc. Faith derives from the individual. God has given all men a measure of faith and they may exercise it as they please. Those who humble themselves to God will be welcomed by Him.

How does a person repent? I am looking to get some specific details.

I'm looking for the how and not the what. I accept that repentance is part of salvation but how is this done. There is no point telling a person they need to do something and not explaining how to do it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

How does a person repent? I am looking to get some specific details.

I'm looking for the how and not the what. I accept that repentance is part of salvation but how is this done. There is no point telling a person they need to do something and not explaining how to do it.

Its really simple, you just humble yourself to God and turn to Him for help. He will provide the rest as long as your willing. Hence “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:7-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice it doesn’t say receive so that you can ask or the door will be opened so that you can knock.

 

[All Glory To God]

Its really simple, you just humble yourself to God and turn to Him for help. He will provide the rest as long as your willing. Hence “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:7-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice it doesn’t say receive so that you can ask or the door will be opened so that you can knock.

No it is not really simple because you can't give the details how to do it and you are advocating this system,so how can it be simple. This scripture you offered,Jesus is addressing believers so they do not need to repent for salvation because they are already saved. We know they were believers because they are ''brothers'' in Christ.

Matthew 7:4-7
Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you.....


God demands us to repent

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

I don't see Jesus telling us how to repent although it is mandatory. Don't you think that's odd? Perhaps it is not ours to carry out that task?

 

[BNR32FAN]

No it is not really simple because you can't give the details how to do it and you are advocating this system,so how can it be simple. This scripture you offered,Jesus is addressing believers so they do not need to repent for salvation because they are already saved. We know they were believers because they are ''brothers'' in Christ.

But Jesus never says “you” in those verses. They are not limited to only believers. The terms “he who seeks” and “he who knocks” is not limited to those he is speaking to but to anyone who does this. Your saying the door is opened before a person knocks. In your theology the door was opened at creation when according to what Jesus said here the door is not opened until someone knocks. And I did give an explanation to how someone is saved and provided the scriptures to back it up. You simply can’t admit when your wrong. He who exalts himself will be humbled but he who humbles himself will be exalted. Read the message. How complex was it for the tax collector to humble himself to God?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don't see Jesus telling us how to repent although it is mandatory. Don't you think that's odd? Perhaps it is not ours to carry out that task?

No I don’t think it’s odd because his audience understood how to repent. Don’t you think it would be completely stupid for Jesus to tell them to repent if they have no control over it? I mean c’mon, what’s the point of telling someone to repent if it’s God’s task and not their’s?

 

[All Glory To God]

But Jesus never says “you” in those verses. They are not limited to only believers. The terms “he who seeks” and “he who knocks” is not limited to those he is speaking to but to anyone who does this. Your saying the door is opened before a person knocks. In your theology the door was opened at creation when according to what Jesus said here the door is not opened until someone knocks. And I did give an explanation to how someone is saved and provided the scriptures to back it up. You simply can’t admit when your wrong. He who exalts himself will be humbled but he who humbles himself will be exalted. Read the message. How complex was it for the tax collector to humble himself to God?

How does this '' but he who humbles himself will be exalted'' get you any closer to proving your point? All you have done is added another step to the previous question which you couldn't answer and you won't be answer this one,how does a person humble them self? You need to be able to tell us from scripture how a person can do this because if people cannot be shown how to come to God by their own choice then there must be an alternative to this system you suggest.

 

[All Glory To God]

No I don’t think it’s odd because his audience understood how to repent. Don’t you think it would be completely stupid for Jesus to tell them to repent if they have no control over it? I mean c’mon, what’s the point of telling someone to repent if it’s God’s task and not their’s?

And how did they do it? Give us the details.

 

[BNR32FAN]

How does this '' but he who humbles himself will be exalted'' get you any closer to proving your point? All you have done is added another step to the previous question which you couldn't answer and you won't be answer this one,how does a person humble them self? You need to be able to tell us from scripture how a person can do this because if people cannot be shown how to come to God by their own choice then there must be an alternative to this system you suggest.

Did you read Luke 18:10-14? That’s the message I provided giving an example of the tax collector humbling himself.