Total Depravity

[BNR32FAN]

So you would, after all this, have the integrity of the decision of man as the hinge upon which his eternal destiny turns?

No not at all my friend. No one can possibly repent and believe who has not heard the gospel.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Can the gospel change someone’s heart? Also what about the type of repentance where a person’s heart is actually changed and they do become a new creation for years? You can’t say for certain that a person like this was not really changed that’s just, forgive me for saying this but, an excuse to patch up the holes in Calvin’s doctrines.

Yes, the Gospel can change someone's heart, but it can look like a bit of a play on words. The Gospel is not just a narrative about God and what he has done for us. The Gospel is the Word of God, it is Christ himself. He takes us residence in us, changing us, giving us New Birth, Regeneration. And the Word of God will not return to him void.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Gospel is a lot more than a little book with different colored pages and a narrative that goes with each one. The Gospel is Christ himself, and is Salvation, and is the mercy of God, and is wholly the Work of God --not of man.

Amen, but some hear it and are saved and some hear it and believe for a while and fall away and some simply reject it. My point is that Jesus said that some do believe and fall away. He didn’t say they didn’t really believe.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No not at all my friend. No one can possibly repent and believe who has not heard the gospel.

Heard the words and logic of the narrative we call the gospel? Or heard the Spirit within?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, the Gospel can change someone's heart, but it can look like a bit of a play on words. The Gospel is not just a narrative about God and what he has done for us. The Gospel is the Word of God, it is Christ himself. He takes us residence in us, changing us, giving us New Birth, Regeneration. And the Word of God will not return to him void.

Amen God is good

 

[Mark Quayle]

Amen, but some hear it and are saved and some hear it and believe for a while and fall away and some simply reject it. My point is that Jesus said that some do believe and fall away. He didn’t say they didn’t really believe.

He didn't say they were chosen to be members of the eternal Body of Christ either.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Amen God is good

Amen that!

 

[BNR32FAN]

Heard the words and logic of the narrative we call the gospel? Or heard the Spirit within?

That’s a good question. I can only testify from the perspective of a believer. I can’t actually testify from the perspective of a person who heard the gospel & didn’t believe. So I don’t think I could rightly answer that question. I would point out that many in the Old Testament never heard the gospel.

 

[BNR32FAN]

He didn't say they were chosen to be members of the eternal Body of Christ either.

He did say that they did not abide/remain in Him in John 15:6. Also Paul said to the Galatians that they were severed from a Christ and they had fallen from grace. You can’t be severed from Christ if you’ve never been joined to Him. And you can’t fall from grace if it was never bestowed to you.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That’s a good question. I can only testify from the perspective of a believer. I can’t actually testify from the perspective of a person who heard the gospel & didn’t believe. So I don’t think I could rightly answer that question. I would point out that many in the Old Testament never heard the gospel.

I really enjoyed the discussion but I have to get to bed now it’s pretty late and I have to wake up early. I look forward to further discussion in the future and I embrace you as a fellow loved one in Christ. God be with you.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Can the gospel change someone’s heart? Also what about the type of repentance where a person’s heart is actually changed and they do become a new creation for years? You can’t say for certain that a person like this was not really changed that’s just, forgive me for saying this but, an excuse to patch up the holes in Calvin’s doctrines.

Nor can you say that such a person does not in the end, take his place in Eternal Body of Christ. You CAN say, that if God chooses someone to be a specific member of the Body of Christ, he WILL be that member, and no other will be substituted in his place by his own failure. It is GOD who is faithful --not us. (See TULIP, Perseverance of the Saints).

 

[Mark Quayle]

I really enjoyed the discussion but I have to get to bed now it’s pretty late and I have to wake up early. I look forward to further discussion in the future and I embrace you as a fellow loved one in Christ. God be with you.

And with you, brother.

 

[Mark Quayle]

He did say that they did not abide/remain in Him in John 15:6. Also Paul said to the Galatians that they were severed from a Christ and they had fallen from grace. You can’t be severed from Christ if you’ve never been joined to Him. And you can’t fall from grace if it was never bestowed to you.

There are two easy takes on this, neither of which does violence to the text (I like the second):

1. There are many graces, though only one redemption, one regeneration, one Gospel. It is, for example, a common grace that though man is by nature totally depraved, the deeds of man are restrained by God. Here Paul could be meaning by 'grace' the mere opportunity offered by the Gospel, that they were abandoning, or perhaps a lifestyle of walking according to the Gospel, as it is effective also in restraining, and good deeds DO (particularly, obedience, does) change habits of thinking.

2. I think Paul here is referring to a simple use of that phrase, restating what he had said earlier --that they had abandoned the Gospel in favor of works. I don't think he was saying that they had lost their Salvation nor that they were no longer Regenerated. (In fact, he would not have written the way he did, I believe, if he thought they were irrevocably lost; I think he was spanking them --something a father does if he loves his misbehaving children).

 

[All Glory To God]

That's the one of the problems with Calvinism ... the belief dismisses the fact God gave his created beings the freedom to choose. Many many many verses stated by God ... if you do this ... or if you do that ... IF is conditional and based on choice. Many IF's in His Word.

Gods foreknowledge .... God knows what choices people will make ... but He does not make our choices for us.

John 7:17
17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

We are indeed more inclined to sin than to not sin ... but ... IF one chooses Christ then by the power of His Holy Spirit working in the believer He will help them to overcome sin and/or avoid the temptation to sin. We will never be totally perfect in our earthly body ... but God will finish His work in the believer ... and His work continues until our earthly death or until He returns whichever comes first.

Revelation 3:20
Berean Study Bible
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me.

Revelation 3:21
King James Bible
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Philippine 1:6
Berean Study Bible
being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus

Sanctification:

It’s the reciprocation of our love toward God. We are being sanctified with the help of the Holy Spirit (Comforter) that Jesus gives us. Sanctification means to set a part or to make holy. His Holy Spirit helps us in this process to become more like Christ. This is not a one time event; it’s a life long process (we stumble here and there). The process of sanctifying and purifying us (the works that Jesus does in the believer, and is not of ourselves) ... it is HIM working in us and through us. We are separated from the world. We are in the physical world but not of the world spiritually. Our mind (thinking) changes over time and therefore our actions also change. Our faith increases more and more as He faithfully works in us. Hebrews 12:2

Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being (progressive) sanctified (during their earthly life-time).

Jesus is our advocate and judge and will cover us with His blood and will DECLARE us totally innocent of all sin and we will receive eternal life in His kingdom for eternity.

True love requires choice .... true love can not be forced ... one can not force another to love them .... God knows that .... we know that.

God does not force Himself on anyone.

Calvinism dismisses (makes void) Gods sovereign LOVE of mankind who He originally created in His image of Love.

And the greatest of these is Love.

God IS love.

God is the Greatest! AMEN!!!!!!

And who decides the type of will a person receives? Is it a random happening or it decided by God.

God's foreknowledge leads to who is elected and who is rejected before the world is even put together

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice the order.
We are chosen, foreknowledge.
We are predestined, our lives mapped out before we live it.
We are called, to be Christians.
We are glorified, by God's good works.

The creator does not operate in response to the actions of the fallen sinful creation, he is coordinator over them.

In regard to the nature of God I recall when isaiah and the apostle John were in the presence of the most high Gods heavenly servants adrresed him as "holy, holy, holy" also he has specified himself as being holy. Love is virtue but holiness is the main attribute of almighty God.

And you speak of forced loved, well this God of yours must be awefully shy because he doesn't love his chosen people enough to save them and doesn't give them details on how to have faith in him to start this loving relationship.

Anyway hopes that's alright.

 

[All Glory To God]

Amen my friend amen but what of the power of the gospel. Is it not God’s calling? Is the gospel not powerful enough to bring about repentance? I believe it is if the person is willing.

I don't think that's what the intention of the gospel is for. Is the gospel gods book or is it a book about god? Is it god revevealing himself to the creation for his own glory and purposes or is it a manual for the creation to use to save themself?

 

[All Glory To God]

I feel like I need to ask this question again just by itself because I feel that it has been overlooked.

Is Jezebel capable of repentance?

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Well this scripture is actually addressing a church, affected by a sin.

This is a church we are talking about in revelation so not personal salvation.

 

[All Glory To God]

Now if this were true then John 15:6 would be impossible. As well as Galatians 5:4. Let us not forget Jesus’ words in John 6:44.

How can you account for these teachings? The secret is in John 6:37.

This is in regard to eternal security or something else? I'm starting to lose track of our conversation which started with total depravity.

 

[com7fy8]

Like for example a person who actually has actually been born again and has become a new creation for several years and later doubts his faith becoming either agnostic or even atheist all together. Then there are some who’ve been born again and years later possibly after a tragic event have developed a hatred for God. These kind of scenarios exist in real life.

It can look this way, it can be made to look this way. But if fifty-percent of even married Christians are getting divorced . . . may be how they saw the ones they married was how things were made to look, not how things really were going to cook. So, we can see people the way we are able to, indeed. So, I pray to be ready in case God has me find out the real truth about anyone; and will I really love them, then?

Jesus said that some will not abide in Him and only those who endure to the end will be saved.

But Jesus does say He keeps His sheep. So, there is a verbal challenge, here, I would say.

And for personal application, I see God wants us to simply seek Him for Himself, and do what He has us do, and not hurry to draw conclusions from His word, but mainly draw the living water.

And love each person. I get > they were fallen from grace, but Paul with others ministered restoration to ones who were going to repent of that > Galatians 6:1.

Always have hope, then, for any person. Be ready that the person needs restoration, or perhaps the person did not truly convert. Jesus does say one needs to believe and be converted.

And Hebrews 12:4-14 says a child of God is corrected . . . by God Himself; or else > Hebrews 13:8. And now I get that correction, here, means so the person is stable in Jesus so the person no longer has the capability to fall away >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So . . . I see from this > that our real assurance of salvation includes how God's love cures our character so that "in this world" we are "as He is".

And Philippians 2:13-16 helps with this > by not giving in to whatever in us can get us to complain or argue, this has us becoming more real in God's love so this love is curing us so that we may > "become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation".

And so . . . about total depravity > I see how we at any moment, even now, can not get ourselves to be able to tell the difference between when it is really God's Spirit or some other possibility having us experience we are loving. But in case we can tell, it is because God first got through to us and made us able > and this has been prayed for us > ministered by others used by God > for example >

"And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment." (Philippians 1:9)

Even now, then, God proves Himself to us and changes us so we succeed in choosing, in His way . . . not in our own effort and way > "without Me you can do nothing" (in John 15:5) can apply here, somehow, I would say.

I know you didn’t mention 1 John 2:19 I just wanted to include this into this explanation as a preemptive rebuttal because it’s very often used to explain why a person turns away from God.

And I already knew ones could say it only meant a specific group whom the Christians reading would know John is talking about . . . and now ones we could know the Holy Spirit is talking about, whom we know.

But I personally understand how God is the only One really in control, but this does not mean He has me busy with labeling people, but first seek Him for Himself, including actively seeking Him to correct me and other people. And if I be a good example in the sight of God, He can spread the grace of this to anyone and everyone around me, to bless each person however each one is blessed. And He has me have this hope for the ones I know who are turning out to possibly be deeply ruined people who might have gotten into the born-again culture but their dirty ways have come out and they have not obviously changed from them.

No one has been somehow superior to anyone else, so we got ourselves to choose Jesus while others did not. But "we all once" "were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." (in Ephesians 2:3) So, I would say our human spirit has been able to be totally with Satan or changed to be totally with God. But if God has made His almighty change in us, it can not change back. And then we grow in this. And, again, here is a thing to go with the depravity issue > we can not make an almighty change of truly repenting, in ourselves; God is the One almighty to make His way of changing in us, of true repentance which has a stable and growing result.

But the warnings can effect me not to take my salvation for granted, as much as I can get the wrong way . . . not having been cured to be perfectly like Jesus. And yes ones seem to say you can't be somewhere in between; so . . . God knows what to do, what is really going on. And in His perfect love and in His perfect joy I am ready for love with any person.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There are two easy takes on this, neither of which does violence to the text (I like the second):

1. There are many graces, though only one redemption, one regeneration, one Gospel. It is, for example, a common grace that though man is by nature totally depraved, the deeds of man are restrained by God. Here Paul could be meaning by 'grace' the mere opportunity offered by the Gospel, that they were abandoning, or perhaps a lifestyle of walking according to the Gospel, as it is effective also in restraining, and good deeds DO (particularly, obedience, does) change habits of thinking.

2. I think Paul here is referring to a simple use of that phrase, restating what he had said earlier --that they had abandoned the Gospel in favor of works. I don't think he was saying that they had lost their Salvation nor that they were no longer Regenerated. (In fact, he would not have written the way he did, I believe, if he thought they were irrevocably lost; I think he was spanking them --something a father does if he loves his misbehaving children).

Well I do agree that salvation was still available to them but it was contingent upon them relying on Christ as their means of justification and not by obedience to the law or of their own works. No I believe as long as a person still has breath in their lungs they still have a chance to be saved. I don’t believe anyone is completely cut off from salvation while they’re still alive, unless of course Jesus returns while they’re in a fallen state that is.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don't think that's what the intention of the gospel is for. Is the gospel gods book or is it a book about god? Is it god revevealing himself to the creation for his own glory and purposes or is it a manual for the creation to use to save themself?

What is the purpose of the Bible and who is it’s intended audience? The purpose of the Bible is to reveal God and His glory to man and to teach man what he must do to be saved. It’s God’s calling to man. Jesus commanded that the gospel be preached to all nations. There were no exclusions. The intended audience is everyone. If salvation comes thru hearing the gospel then no one has saved themselves furthermore since our justification came from Christ’s sacrifice again no one has saved themself. Then there’s still the involvement of the Holy Spirit that plays a monumental role. Just because a person can repent doesn’t mean they can save themself.