Total depravity

[bling]

So only believers have sinned?

Answered already, but just because both Jewish and Gentile Christians have sinned in the past and that is what Paul is addressing in Ro. 3, does not mean others also have not also sinned, but are not addressed at this time.

 

[Hammster]

What are you saying to reconcile the two?

I’m not seeing what needs to be reconciled.

 

[Hammster]

Believers have sinned, both Jewish and Gentile Christians have sinned and that is who Paul is addressing in Romans 3. We read other places nonbelievers who reject God's Love also sinned.

And all of us have Adam’s sin imputed to us. I’ve already posted Romans 5 twice. I don’t think I’ll post it again.

 

[JLB777]

You need to start a little earlier.


The Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
— Genesis 6:7-8

The context of what you just quoted is. —


Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:1-4


These giants were the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men. They were perverse and corrupt beings who were eventually destroyed by the children of Israel.


In the beginning —


Abel was righteous.

Cain was not.


Cain had the ability to rule over sin and do good.


If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.
Genesis 4:7



He just choose not to.




JLB

 

[JLB777]

True -- but that was the result of the work of the New Birth, the gospel in the life of Noah... it is not that wicked people just "have that ability".

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”
Genesis 4:7



Cain had the ability, but chose not to do good.




JLB

 

[Hammster]

The context of what you just quoted is. —


Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:1-4


These giants were the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men. They were perverse and corrupt beings who were eventually destroyed by the children of Israel.


In the beginning —


Abel was righteous.

Cain was not.


Cain had the ability to rule over sin and do good.


If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.
Genesis 4:7



He just choose not to.




JLB

Too bad that doesn’t address my post.

 

[JLB777]

Too bad that doesn’t address my post.

The context of what you just quoted is. —


Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:1-4


These giants were the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men. They were perverse and corrupt beings who were eventually destroyed by the children of Israel.



JLB

 

[Hammster]

The context of what you just quoted is. —


Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:1-4


These giants were the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men. They were perverse and corrupt beings who were eventually destroyed by the children of Israel.



JLB

And Noah was part of that group. But he found grace.

 

[bling]

I’m not seeing what needs to be reconciled.

You said:
“The elect aren’t punished.” And “Since death is the punishment for sin, it’s bad.”

Do the elect die, because if they do die by your definition they are punished?

 

[bling]

And all of us have Adam’s sin imputed to us. I’ve already posted Romans 5 twice. I don’t think I’ll post it again.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned⁠— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

— Romans 5:12-14

You are adding something not stated in scripture: “Adam’s sin imputed to us.”

Death comes with sinning. Death both: stops the unrepentant sinner from sinning more and some sinners, partly out of the fear of death, to repent of their sins.

 

[Hammster]

You said:
“The elect aren’t punished.” And “Since death is the punishment for sin, it’s bad.”

Do the elect die, because if they do die by your definition they are punished?

Death came about because of sin. It’s a punishment. Fortunately for us, Christ bore that punishment. That’s why He died. Had He not been our substitute, He would not have died. So death is no longer a punishment for us. We will still die physically because of the effects of the fall. However, that’s not even a given because if He returns before you finish reading this sentence, then we would not experience physical death.

 

[Hammster]

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned⁠— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

— Romans 5:12-14

You are adding something not stated in scripture: “Adam’s sin imputed to us.”

Death comes with sinning. Death both: stops the unrepentant sinner from sinning more and some sinners, partly out of the fear of death, to repent of their sins.

I’m not adding. I’m explaining.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin.

 

[bling]

I’m not adding. I’m explaining.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin.

That is not saying: "Adam's sin was imputed to all humans including the unborn". It is talking only about the relationship between sin and death. Death comes to all humans and death comes because of the first sin and all sins, so you might argue that "death" is imputed, but not sin.

 

[Hammster]

That is not saying: "Adam's sin was imputed to all humans including the unborn". It is talking only about the relationship between sin and death. Death comes to all humans and death comes because of the first sin and all sins, so you might argue that "death" is imputed, but not sin.

“because all sinned⁠”

 

[bling]

Death came about because of sin. It’s a punishment. Fortunately for us, Christ bore that punishment. That’s why He died. Had He not been our substitute, He would not have died. So death is no longer a punishment for us. We will still die physically because of the effects of the fall. However, that’s not even a given because if He returns before you finish reading this sentence, then we would not experience physical death.

I like your saying: “We will still die physically because of the effects of the fall”, but you also said: “It’s (death is) a punishment.”, but again you said: “death is no longer a punishment for us.”

Death is the “effect” of Adam sinning, but like you point out it does not have to be a punishment and thus death is not a punishment in and of itself, since you are saying death does not have to be punishment.

Going to hell is the real punishment for sins and not death itself.

 

[bling]

“because all sinned⁠”

Again, the context of that verse is not suggesting unborn children are included in the "all".

 

[Hammster]

I like your saying: “We will still die physically because of the effects of the fall”, but you also said: “It’s (death is) a punishment.”, but again you said: “death is no longer a punishment for us.”

Death is the “effect” of Adam sinning, but like you point out it does not have to be a punishment and thus death is not a punishment in and of itself, since you are saying death does not have to be punishment.

Going to hell is the real punishment for sins and not death itself.

My fault for not being clear on spiritual death, physical death, and the effects of the fall.

 

[Hammster]

Again, the context of that verse is not suggesting unborn children are included in the "all".

It does, actually. Death is the result of sin. Death came to all men which means all have sinned. And since death is because of sin, and babies die, that means the sin is in them.

 

[dms1972]

It does, actually. Death is the result of sin. Death came to all men which means all have sinned. And since death is because of sin, and babies die, that means the sin is in them.

But not every death is natural, some would have lived but were aborted.

 

[Hammster]

But not every death is natural, some would have lived but were aborted.

Death through sin.