• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Total depravity / Free-will questions...

xapis

Soli Deo gloria!
Jul 1, 2004
2,022
254
Lambsburg, VA
Visit site
✟18,464.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Obviously, one of the biggest obstacles between many thinkers in the Arminian camp (no, that's not an oxymoron ^_^ ) and Calvinism is the difference in belief on the issue of free-will. This is one thing I continually find myself wondering where the line is drawn. Where does free-will end? Sure, God is sovereign but we do have free-will to some extent, right?

I understand the Calvinist position is rooted in "there is none good" and "there is none that seeketh God" (though I'm sure it's not quite so simple).

I have several more questions on the subject so please bear with me.

I understand you believe that people are unable in themselves to choose to follow God and be saved. But once saved, is it not by their own free-will that they love, honor, and obey Him?

As a follow-up to the previous question, I will pose these oft-asked questions: If we don't serve Him by our own free-will, doesn't that make us "drones", "pawns", or "puppets"? Wouldn't that make our "love" for Him forced and therefore meaningless?

What about Satan and the fallen angels? Doesn't their fall prove they had a free-will to choose to rebel against God?

How do you explain Hebrews 6:4-6? According to this, can one who has been saved therefore continue a life of sin? Doesn't this bring to question the answer to Q. 82 of the Westminster Shorter Catechism?

I don't seek a debate. I seek the Truth. Please give me your best apologetic. :thumbsup: ...you may just change my mind.

Shalom,
Lane
 

cygnusx1

Jacob the twister.....
Apr 12, 2004
56,208
3,104
UK Northampton
Visit site
✟94,926.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
THE ELECTION AND PREDESTINATION
OF THE BELIEVER
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Romans 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
Isaiah 64:7 And there is no one who calls on Your name, Who stirs himself up to take hold of You...
Isaiah 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
Romans 3:11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
Joshua 24:15 "...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve..."
John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you...
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

If it is true that there are none that seek after God, call upon His name, choose Him, or receive Him, then how did we believe? John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. I. How did we believe?
A. His power
1. Ephesians 1:15-19 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power
2. 2 Corinthians 3:3-5 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart. 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
3. Acts 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
4. John 6:63-65 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
5. Isaiah 26:12-13 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.

B. His gift
1. Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
2. John 3:27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.

C. His grace
1. Acts 18:27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;
2. 1 Peter 1:18-21 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
3. Romans 5:11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

II. Who will believe? John 5:39-44 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. 41 "I do not receive honor from men. 42 "But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 "How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?
A. Those who have been given by the Father to the Son.
1. John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
2. John 17:1-2 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3. John 17:6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
a. "They have kept Your word."

4. John 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
a. Christ prays only for them.
5. John 17:11-12 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
6. John 17:24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.


B. The sheep
1. John 10:1-5 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 "And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 "Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
2. John 10:10-11 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. 11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
3. John 10:26-29 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

C. The chosen
1. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
2. Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.
3. Numbers 16:1-13
4. Matthew 22:1-14
5. 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

D. As many as were ordained
1. Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
2. Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

E. Whom the Lord wills
1. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
2. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (gk.-helko-to drag) him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
3. John 5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

III. When did God choose us?
A. From the beginning -- Acts 15:18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works."
1. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
2. Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

IV. Why did He choose us? -- Acts 15:18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works."
A. His foreknowledge
1. 1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge (gk.-prognosis) of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
2. Romans 8:28-29 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
3. What did He foreknow?
a. Acts 15:18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works."
b. 2 Timothy 2:15-19 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."
c. A common heresy being taught among people claiming to be Christians is that, the reason God chose us, was that He foreknew who would choose Him (John 15:16) or who would seek Him (Romans 3:11) or who would call upon His name (Isaiah 64:7) or who would receive (1 Corinthians 2:14) or who would come to Him (John 6:44).This teaching is heretical, glorifies man, and must be stopped with the Word of God.

B. His love
1. Deuteronomy 7:6-8 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. 7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; 8 "but because the LORD loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
2. Ephesians 1:4-5 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

C. His will and purpose -- Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
1. Ephesians 1:5,9,11 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
2. Matthew 11:21-27 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 "But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 "And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 "But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you." 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

D. To the praise of His glory and grace
1. Ephesians 1:4-6,11-14 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
2. 2 Corinthians 4:5-7 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us.
3. 1 Corinthians 1:23-31 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God; and righteousness and sanctification and redemption; 31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the LORD."

E. To go and bring forth fruit
1. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
2. Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

http://www.eschatology.com/predestination.html
 
Upvote 0

seekingpurity047

Why am I not surprised
Apr 12, 2005
3,303
148
39
Brooklin
✟4,248.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Conservatives
7cworldwide said:
Obviously, one of the biggest obstacles between many thinkers in the Arminian camp (no, that's not an oxymoron ^_^ ) and Calvinism is the difference in belief on the issue of free-will. This is one thing I continually find myself wondering where the line is drawn. Where does free-will end? Sure, God is sovereign but we do have free-will to some extent, right?

Yes. We do have free will to a certain extent. In our unregenerate state, we have free will: free will to choose any sin we want to choose, because we can't choose to do good.

7cworldwide said:
I understand the Calvinist position is rooted in "there is none good" and "there is none that seeketh God" (though I'm sure it's not quite so simple).

There is also Rom. 8:7 that says "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot." Unregenerate man's mind is always set on the flesh, so... yah, the rest follows.

7cworldwide said:
I have several more questions on the subject so please bear with me.

I understand you believe that people are unable in themselves to choose to follow God and be saved. But once saved, is it not by their own free-will that they love, honor, and obey Him?

Yes. Because God has changed our hearts, replacing our heart of stone to a heart of flesh (Ezek. 11:19-20), thus making us desire to love, honor, and obey Him. He changes our hearts, then we inevitably place our complete trust in Him. It's not a matter of Him forcing us, but it's a matter of Him making us willing, for we must ask ourselves: is volition self-determining? Answer: no.

7cworldwide said:
As a follow-up to the previous question, I will pose these oft-asked questions: If we don't serve Him by our own free-will, doesn't that make us "drones", "pawns", or "puppets"? Wouldn't that make our "love" for Him forced and therefore meaningless?

We do serve Him by our own free will because He continues to work in us. God changes our hearts, then we continue to choose to walk in His statutes, and such. He will continue to work in us, but He never forces us, He makes us willing.

7cworldwide said:
What about Satan and the fallen angels? Doesn't their fall prove they had a free-will to choose to rebel against God?

Yes. As C.H. Spurgeon likes to put it: Free will sent many a soul to hell, but ne'er a soul to heaven. Take a look at Adam and Eve, for instance. God did not make them sin, but they chose to by their own free will. That led to their wills being bound to their sin nature, and it passed on all the way to us.

7cworldwide said:
How do you explain Hebrews 6:4-6? According to this, can one who has been saved therefore continue a life of sin? Doesn't this bring to question the answer to Q. 82 of the Westminster Shorter Catechism?

Can one who is saved continue in a life of sin? Well, when you think about it, in reality we always sin. We are always sinning, everyday. If we aren't glorifying God all the time in everything that we do, we are sinning. But, one who has been regenerated by God will have no desire for sinning. Their heart has changed already.

Now, I don't know all that much about the Westminster Shorter Catechism, so I will have to let someone else answer that part for you.

7cworldwide said:
I don't seek a debate. I seek the Truth.

And I am, therefore, glad. We have come across far too many people who just wanted to debate in here.

I hope this answered your questions.

To the glory of God,

Randy
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The robot thing, I had an intellectual problem with, even though I never realy felt like a robot.
I think it can be explained in terms of Primary & Secondary causes. God predestined sin ~ "vessels of dishonor" & "brute beasts made for destruction", but He doesn't commit sin, we do. This might illustrate the difference between being guilty & being responsible.
God is holy, not evil.

Isaiah verifies that God created evil (45:7), but His motivation is unquestionably good. He doesn't take pleasure in the evil He predestined, His only begotten Son's crucifixtion for instance, rather His pleasure is in what it accomplishes.

What I gather that it accomplishes, boils down to 2 reasons; generaly, His glory (justice) & specificaly "the perfection of the saints".
 
Upvote 0

JimfromOhio

Life of Trials :)
Feb 7, 2004
27,738
3,738
Central Ohio
✟67,748.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Without the Holy Spirit, we do have the "inability" to get saved. Without the Holy Spirit is TOTAL DEPRAVITY".

The Holy Spirit is the only person that can quicken people to be saved. 1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 1 Thessalonians 4:8 Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, we will not REPENT. We cannot repent on our own. We are to repent with the help from the Holy Spirit who will help us TRANSFORM us to the image of God.

People can either acknowledge the conviction of the Holy Spirit to repent and come to Christ in faith.

OR

Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 1 Thessalonians 4:8 Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Are people willing to acknowledge the conviction of the Holy Spirit is the question. Since sin often ignores the Holy Spirit... not many will acknowledge. People will (as 2 Timothy 3:7 says) always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth.

I am Calvinism more than I am an Arminianism. I used to be an Arminianism but over the years, the more I studied, the more I understand God's plan of Salvation and the works of the Holy Spirit, I tend to agree with Calvinism. As a calvinist, I do believe we have "free will" but only according to God's will. God will direct our lives as He sees fit. Bible clearly pointed out that God have directed our lives. In Ephesians 1:11, "He works all things according to the purpose of His own will." 'Providence" means God’s faithful, moment-by-moment control over everything He has made to ensure that everything He has created are going according to His will. He is active in every detail of it. He’s active at every moment. He doesn’t stand back and let things happen because He decides to intervene if something or someone is not going according to His will. He governs the world moment-by-moment through providence, so that everything that happens, every detail of our life occurs by God's divine providence or by God’s express permission. He is in control of everything. God constantly intervenes in our lives through His Providence.

This also include the election of salvation. In my position, God will not hold me responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination, and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these is to look to God in deepest respect say, "0 Lord, You know all." These issues belong to God's omniscience. I want to add that Calvinism believe in the Great Commission. We don't know who are elected to be saved. We just preach the Gospel to ALL and allow God handle the election part. Even though God is in control and He KNOWS who will accept and reject before the earth was even created. Jesus did die for ALL but the atonement is only for the elected (in other words, those who are convicted by the Holy Spirit to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, repented and etc).
 
Upvote 0

heymikey80

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Dec 18, 2005
14,496
921
✟41,809.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
7cworldwide said:
I understand you believe that people are unable in themselves to choose to follow God and be saved. But once saved, is it not by their own free-will that they love, honor, and obey Him?
Hm. It depends what you mean by "free will". If you mean that we are changed slowly first to desire and then the Spirit works through us His own actions and changes our desires to want them, then if that's "free will", then sure.

If we're somehow free to choose evil, well, we already have that freedom, eh? Doesn't do us a whole lot of good.
7cworldwide said:
As a follow-up to the previous question, I will pose these oft-asked questions: If we don't serve Him by our own free-will, doesn't that make us "drones", "pawns", or "puppets"? Wouldn't that make our "love" for Him forced and therefore meaningless?
If we do what we desire, yet we plead with God to change our desires and He does so, it seems to me we're dependent on Him for our desires, and we're not "free". Again, I think it's a question what you mean by "free will."
7cworldwide said:
What about Satan and the fallen angels? Doesn't their fall prove they had a free-will to choose to rebel against God?
Again, it's very dependent on what you mean by free will. They were made with wills that rebelled against God and there was nothing in creation that walled them in. If that's what you mean, then they were "free". I believe that's called "free agency" in Reformed thought. 'Course God won't leave them free, His Judgement will reach them as well.
7cworldwide said:
How do you explain Hebrews 6:4-6? According to this, can one who has been saved therefore continue a life of sin? Doesn't this bring to question the answer to Q. 82 of the Westminster Shorter Catechism?
No. The person didn't have faith, it's not even mentioned attributed to him. The Apostle is highly familiar with the need for faith, it permeats Hebrews. And it's absent from here.
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0

heymikey80

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Dec 18, 2005
14,496
921
✟41,809.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
7cworldwide said:
...just the basic Arminian/Pelagian view that we have the ability to "choose" salvation on our own.
Actually, Jacob Arminius denied that we have that ability. Pelagius is still considered a heretic of the Christian faith because he thought we did have the ability to choose salvation on our own.

Keep in mind, too, the question comes back to, "And what do you mean by 'on my own'?" Do you think that human beings can choose God independently of God's working in them? Do you think that the basis for God's saving them is entirely a result of that decision? Or do you think that there's an exact correspondence, that the people God moves in are themselves actually moved to a faith in Christ? The first is Pelagianism; the second is still held by some evangelicals, and essentially arminian if not exactly what Arminius held; the last is Calvinistic.
 
Upvote 0

xapis

Soli Deo gloria!
Jul 1, 2004
2,022
254
Lambsburg, VA
Visit site
✟18,464.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
heymikey80 said:
Keep in mind, too, the question comes back to, "And what do you mean by 'on my own'?" Do you think that human beings can choose God independently of God's working in them? Do you think that the basis for God's saving them is entirely a result of that decision? Or do you think that there's an exact correspondence, that the people God moves in are themselves actually moved to a faith in Christ? The first is Pelagianism; the second is still held by some evangelicals, and essentially arminian if not exactly what Arminius held; the last is Calvinistic.

Actually, it's not really about what I think. That's why I'm here in "Ask a Calvinist". ;)

Thanks,
Lane
 
Upvote 0

heymikey80

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Dec 18, 2005
14,496
921
✟41,809.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
7cworldwide said:
Actually, it's not really about what I think. That's why I'm here in "Ask a Calvinist". ;)

Thanks,
Lane
LOL! Ok, it's tough to extract this for a reason.

The truthful answers "for comprehension" can be different from the way we need to approach people. Sometimes the truth is more than even we can bear. Yet we seek to help redeem one another, to help move the thinking along. I bet that's why all the questions here more than anything: we don't know what position you're taking, and we don't want to unload some big issues that you're not asking. But let's peel this back a little.

1. Sometimes people just don't want to admit they're not master of their own fate. It happens. We don't haul out this "big gun" much at all in conversation, because (1) it never convinces the person who really wants total control, and (2) it only offends those who don't want total control! But still, there are people in this category. I just have to let 'em rattle onward.

2. Maybe the person has a view of responsibility that only seeks one "responsible party". This one is tougher to convince than it seems it should be, and I'm not quite sure why. I think, for instance, that the steel-maker is responsible for a car, as is the assembly-man, as is the car's designer, as is the drafter. They occupy different roles and responsibilities, but they're all "responsible". The idea of God, Who causes everything, and there's nothing that exists that God didn't bring into existence is a highly specialized, absolute form of "Responsible" that we try to grasp in theology. But humans are also "responsible" in a secondary way.

So when God is said to move in a person, the implication is that God is doing something in an absolute sense. If we attempted it we'd have to resort to possibly evil methods, or we'd be doing it for wrong reasons or by wrongful power over others. God has position and capacities far outside ours. And so God has responsibilities and authority far different from ours. God's God; we're not.

3. Maybe the person has a view of "freedom" in a sense that's ambiguous. This one is supremely tough to talk with people about. You're always being challenged by, "Then I'm not free." We often use different terms for "free" to get rid of ambiguity -- not to deny "free will", but to refine what we mean, to avoid mistakes. There's "free agency", "liberty", "anarchy", "libertinism", "empowerment", and with a more contrarian edge, "fatalism", "determinism", and the fun one, "predestination".

Here there're still people who think they rightly "want what they want", and nobody rightly changes that. In a narrow sense that's a fact: people don't stop wanting what they don't get! But reality interferes with this view when it's a rule of life. Anyone who's brought up kids (or even tried to organize a team) realizes there are external forces against this kind of free will: it's libertinism, and it results in social anarchy.

Moving on to other words: people are or should be uniquely "empowered" in this Creation. They are rightly allowed, within certain limits of moral enforcement, to work in this creation by responding to their own desires. That makes them "free agents" in this Creation, people with liberty. Creation also doesn't fatalistically lock people into specific actions or desires on its own. The human will responds personally, not impersonally, to the forces placed on him -- and persons are not completely determined (though they can be limited and restrained ) by external forces placed on them.

But we're all created by God, built by God, and built as persons by God. It would be rash to think that God doesn't determine what His creations will be, how they will respond. And God has powers He can use to rightly change us, from the inside out. His Spirit is a great example of that.

God does give us certain authority, liberty, and integrity as persons, too. That's why the world isn't fatalistic: because God has given us liberty. But God also moves in us, changing our wills, so that by the Spirit we freely will and desire different things.
 
Upvote 0