Torturers and Hell

brinny

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Jesus speaks at various points in Revelation (particularly at the beginning ... and the end sections). The rest is John's description of what he saw in the vision. And much of that is deemed to be symbolic.

Revelation means "to reveal", does it not?

Jesus Himself is revealing to John what is to come.

In addition it seems that Jesus Himself took it all quite seriously, as it is written what at the close of Revelation?
 
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A_Thinker

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Revelation means "to reveal", does it not?

Jesus Himself is revealing to John what is to come.

In addition it seems that Jesus Himself took it all quite seriously, as it is written what at the close of Revelation?

I'm not saying that Revelation is not the revelation of Jesus Christ. I am saying that it contains a lot of symbolic imagery, ... as does much of Jesus teachings (remember the parables).
 
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brinny

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I'm not saying that Revelation is not the revelation of Jesus Christ. I am saying that it contains a lot of symbolic imagery, ... as does much of Jesus teachings (remember the parables).

Hell is not symbolic.

He shed His blood and DIED so we would not be obliged to go there.

To do such a thing implies that it was a deadly serious horror that is best avoided.

And that is through Him.

Isn't it?
 
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A_Thinker

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Hell is not symbolic.

He shed His blood and DIED so we would not be obliged to go there.

To do such a thing implies that it was a deadly serious horror that is best avoided.

And that is through Him.

Isn't it?

I didn't say that hell was symbolic.

I am, however, agreeing with a previous poster that our understanding of hell may have been influenced by Hellenist culture, as any Jewish concept of hell does not match ours (i.e. christian).

Also, the scriptures which speak of eternal conscious suffering are only found (2 of them) ... in the highly symbolic imagery of the book of Revelation.

The scriptures speak much more abundantly of DEATH being the alternative to EVERLASTING LIFE than our current concept of hell.

For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus. Romans 6:23

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoseover believeth in Him should not PERISH, but have everlasting Life. John 3:16

He that hears my words, and believes upon He that sent Me, shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from DEATH to LIFE. John 5:24
 
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brinny

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I didn't say that hell was symbolic.

I am, however, agreeing with a previous poster that our understanding of hell may have been influenced by Hellenist culture, as any Jewish concept of hell does not match ours (i.e. christian).

Also, the scriptures which speak of eternal conscious suffering are only found (2 of them) ... in the highly symbolic imagery of the book of Revelation.

The scriptures speak much more abundantly of DEATH being the alternative to EVERLASTING LIFE than our current concept of hell.

For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus. Romans 6:23

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoseover believeth in Him should not PERISH, but have everlasting Life. John 3:16

He that hears my words, and believes upon He that sent Me, shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from DEATH to LIFE. John 5:24

You are correct.

Hell is NOT symbolic.

And it's based on what Jesus HIMSELF said about it, regardless of any cultures or man's notions about it.

Jesus was/is WARNING us all NOT to go there.

That is why God's grace is available, through Jesus Christ's sacrifice.

Hell is SERIOUS.

That's why God sent His only begotten Son to die such a SERIOUS death.

Seriously.
 
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A_Thinker

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You are correct.

Hell is NOT symbolic.

And it's based on what Jesus HIMSELF said about it, regardless of any cultures or man's notions about it.

Jesus was/is WARNING us all NOT to go there.

That is why God's grace is available, through Jesus Christ's sacrifice.

Hell is SERIOUS.

That's why God sent His only begotten Son to die such a SERIOUS death.

Seriously.

I agree ... we shouldn't go there.

That much is clear ...
 
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SarahsKnight

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I'm not saying that Revelation is not the revelation of Jesus Christ. I am saying that it contains a lot of symbolic imagery, ... as does much of Jesus teachings (remember the parables).

Don't bother, A_thinker. Some people just like to insinuate that you are arguing with or going against Jesus Christ or God the Father in some way when they don't like what you've said about any Biblically-related subject, in order to shut you down. It's lame.
 
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SarahsKnight

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I didn't say that hell was symbolic.

I am, however, agreeing with a previous poster that our understanding of hell may have been influenced by Hellenist culture, as any Jewish concept of hell does not match ours (i.e. christian).

Also, the scriptures which speak of eternal conscious suffering are only found (2 of them) ... in the highly symbolic imagery of the book of Revelation.

The scriptures speak much more abundantly of DEATH being the alternative to EVERLASTING LIFE than our current concept of hell.

For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus. Romans 6:23

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoseover believeth in Him should not PERISH, but have everlasting Life. John 3:16

He that hears my words, and believes upon He that sent Me, shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from DEATH to LIFE. John 5:24

Simple, no? But some really like to complicate it, knowingly or unknowingly.
 
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brinny

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Simple, no? But some really like to complicate it, knowingly or unknowingly.

Jesus never complicated a thing.

It is written that God is not the Author of confusion.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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When I see people say this it makes me wonder if revelations is meant to be taken literally or not. The book was almost not even included in the bible at one point.

Personally, I think the book of Revelation is meant to be taken very, very seriously since this seems to be implied by John as he relates what the Angel has told him.

However, needless to say, most of the rest of Revelation right up to the very end is described in veiled, metaphorical terms, so it's difficult for us to really draw a comprehensive understanding about everything that is being told to us. God has decided not to tell us the future in upfront, ultra-literal terms. If he wanted to do that, He could have given us a specifically delineated calendar time-table without use of metaphor so it would be clear enough for us to not have to guess or wonder what the meaning of all of the visions really are meant to be.

I think this is important to understand, because it is this median way of conveying the future to us that ensures two things: 1) that we react with freewill because we can't fully see the nature of what is revealed until the 'End,' 2) and paradoxically---God retains His Full Sovereignty over all that He already knows without much in the way of disturbance provided by our partial understanding of how its all going to turn out.

The upshot of this is that Hades (Hell) is pictured as a metaphorical being, along with Death, and both are thrown into the Lake of Fire, which, if we maintain consistency, would also have to be metaphorical.

Now, I hope everyone keeps in mind, here, that I'm not attempting to be dogmatic about what I've just said, and there's always the possibility that I'm dead wrong, but from what I can tell, it would take could a leap in appraisal of Jewish literary motifs to prove that I am indeed in error. Also remember, to say that something in Revelation is given in metaphor is NOT to say that it doesn't mean something really significant will happen at each point in history which is symbolically depicted in the narrative; no, it just means that these catastrophic events will not be clear to us when they happen in history. We'll all be giving our individual, hopeful approximate guesses though in the meantime............and each of us will be right about a few things, and each of us will be wrong about a few other things.

That's my two cents.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Jesus never complicated a thing.

It is written that God is not the Author of confusion.

That's not what that means, brinny. You're a smart person, and I know you can do a better hermeneutical reading of that verse than that. :rolleyes:
 
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brinny

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That's not what that means, brinny. You're a smart person, and I know you can do a better hermeneutical reading of that verse than that. :rolleyes:

It means exactly what it says. God is not the Author of confusion.

In addition, there is a REASON that Jesus Himself warned against hell, as we are to do as well.

To allow any to float on down that fast moving stream towards destruction believing that there really isn't a hell, is the antithesis to why Jesus shed His blood and died.

It really IS a matter of life and death.

Therefore, their blood, so to speak, is on our hands.

Satan, who goes about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may deceive and devour, wants all headed down that stream towards destruction to believe there's no hell. It's his best and most effective deception.

And he's counting on it working.

Unfortunately, many times it does.

Tragic.
 
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brinny

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Well Sister, However it is gonna be, we have a mediator that is atoning for us so we don't have to go there, right ;)

Indeed. It is through Jesus Christ alone that salvation is given.

Amen.
 
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Valetic

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Satan, who goes about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may deceive and devour, wants all headed down that stream towards destruction to believe there's no hell. It's his best and most effective deception.
Amen.

And Jesus is the lion of Judah, seeking out who's soul he might save :clap:
 
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brinny

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We are never ever to mis-lead others or to knowingly allow them to be bound-up and mired in deception.

God help us if we do.

Praying.

iu
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It means exactly what it says. God is not the Author of confusion.

In addition, there is a REASON that Jesus Himself warned against hell, as we are to do as well.

To allow any to float on down that fast moving stream towards destruction believing that there really isn't a hell, is the antithesis to why Jesus shed His blood and died.

It really IS a matter of life and death.

Therefore, their blood, so to speak, is on our hands.

Satan, who goes about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may deceive and devour, wants all headed down that stream towards destruction to believe there's no hell. It's his best and most effective deception.

And he's counting on it working.

Unfortunately, many times it does.

Tragic.

Actually, sis, I think you're confusing Hades with Gehenna, and one is not the other. That's not a sin in itself, it's just that I think you're putting too much stock into the standard connotation that people often cull about these eschatological entities from various English translations we have of the New Testament.

Of course, this is all a matter of life and death. No one is debating that, and no one is downplaying the fact that if a person denies Christ in this life, there will literally be "Hell to pay" of some form or another.
 
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