Torture

[sk8Joyful]

Convention against Torture and
Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment

Thanks for stating that. It says: the term "torture" means
any act by which severe pain, or suffering,
whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as
1. obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession,
2. punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or
3. intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for
4. any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted
by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.

It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful (??) sanctions."

Apparently, alot of people, sadly many 'christians' included, do not care
how wrong & harmful is -> mental suffering, caused by intimidating <-
That abuse goes on everywhere: too many spouses, parents, medical practitioners, preachers, teachers, and anyone else of a dysfunctional Militant bullying disposition. - sadly, it won't stop, until God/Jesus comes to reign on this earth in peace.

 

[hollowgram]

tl;dr: Something other people do.

Yup. CaDan nailed it for all intents and purposes ... and the spelling, too.

 

[sk8Joyful]

In my opinion,
a person must be physically maimed to be considered torture.
Sleep depravation, and the like are not torture. In my opinion.

I can tell you I'll take the gutter and do whatever is necessary and I won't feel bad about it.

Obviously, you are woefully ignorant, or you do not care (who knows),
one iota about Neuro-anatomy/physiology, and how prolonged sleep deprivation leads to
increasing severe physical impairments, including (Adrenal-collapse which I suffered in '99),
plus cognitive-impairments and finally death. <- being tortured to death, is worse than "maiming", sir!
and
your sig. says: &#8220;You cultivate the essential virtues: high purpose, intelligence, decency, humility, fear of the Lord, and the passion for freedom.&#8221; - your post is totally the opposite, of what you claim!

Please!! get educated , that is if you care.

 

[corvus_corax]

What is your definition of torture?

When certain non Christian religionists take captives. As can be seen from just recent accounts, beheadings are the nice part.

Ignoring history again, I see
"When certain non Christian religionists take captives" indeed.

Look to the recent administration that your neoconservative compatriots seem so hell bent to defend.

You said, in one complete sentence, that when non Christians (religionists...do you consider atheists in the same vein?) take captives, it is automatically torture.
And that is pure male bovine excrement.
You also imply that when Christians take captives, that is not torture. Are you willing to say that Christians have never utilized torture?
And don't fall back on the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. You are better than that.

 

[Fin12]

In my opinion, a person must be physically maimed to be considered torture. The damage may be permanent, like Senator McCain suffered, or it could be temporary wounds that would heal.

Sleep depravation, exposure to cold or heat(without damage), loud noise, threatening dogs on short leashes, water boarding, and the like are not torture. In my opinion.

Is real torture ever justified? I can't say no. It would depend on the given situation and whether or not information was time sensitive and believed to be achievable through hard knocks.

As far as the concept that doing nasty stuff makes one as bad as their enemy, I find that a flawed and naive belief. Does one allow the high ground to dictate whether or not innocent lives may be saved? Again, I guess this is a personal viewpoint, but I can tell you I'll take the gutter and do whatever is necessary and I won't feel bad about it.

1. I have to agree with other posters, you seem to be tottaly ignorant to the absoloute hell that can be inflicted on someone with the methods that you mentioned.

2. This "depends on the situation" is flawed, torture is nearly always used to obtain information to save "innocent lives".

What do you think Al Jazeera are doing when they torture captives?

They are saving innocent lives by waging a more effecient war on something that will destroy them and their culture.

Problem is when you say "it depends on the situation" it immiediatly justifies torture, becuase "you are saving innocent lives", we just choose to forget that the situation where we aren' the torturers, are simply mirror images of what we do.

I's just that they have a different opinion on who is "innocent" and who should be saved.

 

[BelindaP]

Ignoring history again, I see
"When certain non Christian religionists take captives" indeed.

Look to the recent administration that your neoconservative compatriots seem so hell bent to defend.

You said, in one complete sentence, that when non Christians (religionists...do you consider atheists in the same vein?) take captives, it is automatically torture.
And that is pure male bovine excrement.
You also imply that when Christians take captives, that is not torture. Are you willing to say that Christians have never utilized torture?
And don't fall back on the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. You are better than that.

Sir, you have just been Poe'd.

 

[BelindaP]

What do you think Al Jazeera are doing when they torture captives?

That would be Al Quaeda. Al Jazeera are a news organization that the previous administration would have you believe was aligned with the terrorists, when it was not.

Also, Al Quaeda often tortures to instill terror, not just to save lives.

 

[Fin12]

That would be Al Quaeda. Al Jazeera are a news organization that the previous administration would have you believe was aligned with the terrorists, when it was not.

Also, Al Quaeda often tortures to instill terror, not just to save lives.

Ah cheers for the correction.

Al quaeda torture to instill terror, in order to instill terror and fight a just cuase.

My point remains, that nearly every case of torture, from the correct POV can be easily justified.


We are fighting evil ones, we must discourage them from killing us.

We need their information if we are to save lives.

We need their information to win this war and save our country.

 

[BelindaP]

And, we can get that information without applying torture.

 

[hollowgram]

Fin12, don't be naive. Those people would not be any more "evil" than the zealous and greedy oil cartels who manufactured war under false pretenses by conflating their activities with that of the former Iraq under Saddam. Or those who want to do away with civil liberties in the free world altogether in favor of some trailer park version of a neo-theocracy. Or those who gun down doctors in churches and imagine themselves serving God in the process -- hello, anyone read John 16:1-3 lately? Or those who commit violent assault upon gay people for no reason other than merely existing.

Patriotism untempered by critical analysis and independent thought too easily degenerates into nationalism. It would behoove us to know the difference, and not naively dupe ourselves into the whole "MY nation = The Good Guys whereas everyone opposed to us = EVUL TERRORISTS!!!" That kind of thinking brought us the witchhunts and pogroms of the McCarthy era and before that (sorry to "pull a Godwin" here but it does happen to be true) -- the horrors of the Nazi holocaust and concentration camps.

 

[Fin12]

Fin12, don't be naive. Those people would not be any more "evil" than the zealous and greedy oil cartels who manufactured war under false pretenses by conflating their activities with that of the former Iraq under Saddam. Or those who want to do away with civil liberties in the free world altogether in favor of some trailer park version of a neo-theocracy. Or those who gun down doctors in churches and imagine themselves serving God in the process -- hello, anyone read John 16:1-3 lately? Or those who commit violent assault upon gay people for no reason other than merely existing.

Patriotism untempered by critical analysis and independent thought too easily degenerates into nationalism. It would behoove us to know the difference, and not naively dupe ourselves into the whole "MY nation = The Good Guys whereas everyone opposed to us = EVUL TERRORISTS!!!" That kind of thinking brought us the witchhunts and pogroms of the McCarthy era and before that (sorry to "pull a Godwin" here but it does happen to be true) -- the horrors of the Nazi holocaust and concentration camps.

Hollogram maybe you should read my post...........

My argument is precisely that all torture is done for a just cause. But that just cause is always subjective.

Hence it should not be argued that torture is moral.

But it's good to see that you are thinking on my line

 

[BelindaP]

I take the Catholic view of torture, that it is an intrinsic evil. What that means is that good can never come from doing an intrinsic evil. Therefore, torture is never justified. It can be a hard thing to swallow when you have the ticking time bomb scenario. But, in reality, that scenario is bogus.

 

[Kid Fish]

Obviously, you are woefully ignorant, or you do not care (who knows),
one iota about Neuro-anatomy/physiology, and how prolonged sleep deprivation leads to
increasing severe physical impairments, including (Adrenal-collapse which I suffered in '99),
plus cognitive-impairments and finally death. <- being tortured to death, is worse than "maiming", sir!
and
your sig. says: “You cultivate the essential virtues: high purpose, intelligence, decency, humility, fear of the Lord, and the passion for freedom.” - your post is totally the opposite, of what you claim!

Please!! get educated , that is if you care.

My sig is completely in keeping with my stance and opinion on this matter. Decency is a virtue bestowed upon those deserving, and no others. Once a person has demonstrated their own penchant toward anti social behavior to the degree that they take innocent lives, they have relinquished any decency toward them.

And your post is quite flaming and stupid as well. Be a pal to the terrorists all you want. For me, I'd take a hammer to their thumbs for a start, and see where it leads.

Spare me the high ground when innocent lives are in the balance.

 

[Hypothetical]

Torture is never a good idea. It is inefficient, inaccurate, and bad PR.

 

[Copperpennies12]

Torture is always wrong.

That's an opinion you're entitled to.

While there may be occasional defenses of necessity, one tortures at one's own peril.

While we are contending for our own Liberty, we should be very cautious of violating the Rights of Conscience in others, ever considering that God alone is the Judge of the Hearts of Men, and to him only in this Case, they are answerable.

Sorry but the God of the Bible is just and allows for justice. It's unjust to allow many innocent to die so that the guilty don't have their consciences violated.

 

[BelindaP]

Was it unjust for God's innocent son to die for us?

I don't think any of us have a complete picture of what God's justice looks like. But, I know that torture isn't part of the deal.

 

[Copperpennies12]

I'm pretty sure that waterboarding is considered to be torture under the convention. We prosecuted Japanese soldiers for doing it after WWII.

What the Japanese soldiers were prosecuted for in no way resembles what the US did. I would suggest reading up on it. Don't be misled by use the use of a similar term.

 

[BelindaP]

What the Japanese soldiers were prosecuted for in no way resembles what the US did. I would suggest reading up on it. Don't be misled by use the use of a similar term.

I am very familiar with the procedure that was used by the US. Do you have a link to the waterboarding procedure used by the Japanese?

 

[Copperpennies12]

So what's it like being just as bad as your enemies?

I'm sorry but if you can't pose a question without insulting me or using emotional hyperbole, you aren't worth the time.

 

[Copperpennies12]

Thanks for stating that. It says: the term "torture" means
any act by which severe pain, or suffering,
whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as
1. obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession,
2. punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or
3. intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for
4. any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted
by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.

It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful (??) sanctions."

Apparently, alot of people, sadly many 'christians' included, do not care
how wrong & harmful is -> mental suffering, caused by intimidating <-
That abuse goes on everywhere: too many spouses, parents, medical practitioners, preachers, teachers, and anyone else of a dysfunctional Militant bullying disposition. - sadly, it won't stop, until God/Jesus comes to reign on this earth in peace.

Why would you advocate the endangering and deaths of hundreds or thousands so one person is not discomforted (or worse)? It never ceases to amaze me how many Christians have no concept of justice.