Torture

[Copperpennies12]

And, we can get that information without applying torture.

How and what's your evidence? Is your evidence selective? Do you give credit to those who have experience with torture and say it doesn't work or isn't needed but discredit those who have experience but claim torture is necessary and does work?

 

[Copperpennies12]

Fin12, don't be naive. Those people would not be any more "evil" than the zealous and greedy oil cartels who manufactured war under false pretenses by conflating their activities with that of the former Iraq under Saddam. Or those who want to do away with civil liberties in the free world altogether in favor of some trailer park version of a neo-theocracy. Or those who gun down doctors in churches and imagine themselves serving God in the process -- hello, anyone read John 16:1-3 lately? Or those who commit violent assault upon gay people for no reason other than merely existing.

Patriotism untempered by critical analysis and independent thought too easily degenerates into nationalism. It would behoove us to know the difference, and not naively dupe ourselves into the whole "MY nation = The Good Guys whereas everyone opposed to us = EVUL TERRORISTS!!!" That kind of thinking brought us the witchhunts and pogroms of the McCarthy era and before that (sorry to "pull a Godwin" here but it does happen to be true) -- the horrors of the Nazi holocaust and concentration camps.

Nothing like being demeaning the faithful, calling them ignorant and equating them with Nazis.

 

[BelindaP]

How and what's your evidence? Is your evidence selective? Do you give credit to those who have experience with torture and say it doesn't work or isn't needed but discredit those who have experience but claim torture is necessary and does work?

My evidence is the testimony of numerous FBI and CIA interrogators before Congress in in books. They say that torture is ineffective and tends to produce bad information. They also say that other techniques that they themselves have employed work as well or better. A specific example is the interrogator who got the information about where to find Saddam Hussein. He didn't have to put a hand on the guy that they got the info out of.

Those who say that torture is necessary and effective are the very ones who engaged in or ordered it done. They have no credibility with me.

Also, I found the procedure the Japanese used for waterboarding. It ranks about the same as that which was done by the US.

A towel was fixed under the chin and down over the face. Then many buckets of water were poured into the towel so that the water gradually reached the mouth and rising further eventually also the nostrils, which resulted in his becoming unconscious and collapsing like a person drowned. This procedure was sometimes repeated 5-6 times in succession.

 

[Copperpennies12]

But, in reality, that scenario is bogus.

That's easy to believe when classified information is selectively declassified to paint such a picture.

Sometimes the ticking bomb is indeed a matter of minutes before destruction and sometimes it's hours or days or weeks or months. Sometimes the information can be gathered in other ways (outside of torture) and sometimes the "bomb" will be a dud (fail to work as planned - think shoe bomber"). But for all those other sometimes when torture works a man or two or three guilty men were severely discomforted and yet hundreds or thousands innocent were saved.

 

[BelindaP]

Hundreds of thousands? Where?

If the US had pulled off a coup like preventing a nuclear holocaust, they would have trumpeted that from the top of the Sears tower. In reality, there has never been a documented case of a ticking time bomb scenario actually happening. If you can post a link showing me to be wrong about that, I'll welcome it.

 

[Copperpennies12]

Was it unjust for God's innocent son to die for us?

Did everyone benefit from His sacrifice or only the repentant?

I don't think any of us have a complete picture of what God's justice looks like. But, I know that torture isn't part of the deal.

But wanton slaughter is. What's worse? Being slaughtered or tortured and left to live?

"Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

 

[Copperpennies12]

My evidence is the testimony of numerous FBI and CIA interrogators before Congress in in books. They say that torture is ineffective and tends to produce bad information. They also say that other techniques that they themselves have employed work as well or better. A specific example is the interrogator who got the information about where to find Saddam Hussein. He didn't have to put a hand on the guy that they got the info out of.

Those who say that torture is necessary and effective are the very ones who engaged in or ordered it done. They have no credibility with me.

At least you freely admit to give no consideration to evidence that is contrary to your beliefs.

Also, I found the procedure the Japanese used for waterboarding. It ranks about the same as that which was done by the US.

Then I'd suggest you do more research even though you may choose to only accept that information that matches what you want to believe about torture.

Water torture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Copperpennies12]

Hundreds of thousands? Where?

If the US had pulled off a coup like preventing a nuclear holocaust, they would have trumpeted that from the top of the Sears tower. In reality, there has never been a documented case of a ticking time bomb scenario actually happening. If you can post a link showing me to be wrong about that, I'll welcome it.

Do you have any clue about the role of intelligence (military/CIA/etc.) and keeping information classified.

Consider our ability to track and listen to Bin Laden until the coup was joyously celebrated that we were tracking his satellite phone.

When President Obama selectively declassified information that sold torture as ineffective, he supposed that Bush and Cheney would remain silent as the outgoing administration typically does (untill the past couple decades). They did not. They called his bluff telling him to declassify the rest of the memos. Sadly, there are too many people who are willing to accept everything said by Obama as gospel or when there is information that contradicts their beliefs, they ignore it. Their itching ears only want to hear certain things. Instead of testing Obama and demanding that he release the rest of the information, they gave him a free pass. It kept them from having to find out that Obama was lying to them and that torture does have a place.

 

[BelindaP]

My source was actual testimony from victims of the Japanese waterboarding. Your wiki article doesn't even address that.
Scroll to the bottom of this page to get one description of Japanese waterboarding.

The quote that I used in my previous post ishere.

 

[BelindaP]

Do you have any clue about the role of intelligence (military/CIA/etc.) and keeping information classified.

Consider our ability to track and listen to Bin Laden until the coup was joyously celebrated that we were tracking his satellite phone.

When President Obama selectively declassified information that sold torture as ineffective, he supposed that Bush and Cheney would remain silent as the outgoing administration typically does (untill the past couple decades). They did not. They called his bluff telling him to declassify the rest of the memos. Sadly, there are too many people who are willing to accept everything said by Obama as gospel or when there is information that contradicts their beliefs, they ignore it. Their itching ears only want to hear certain things. Instead of testing Obama and demanding that he release the rest of the information, they gave him a free pass. It kept them from having to find out that Obama was lying to them and that torture does have a place.

Cheney did that full well knowing the documents couldn't be declassified. It is noteable that somebody from Cheney's administration said the documents he asked to be declassified in no way supported what he claimed. It was Cheney who was doing the bluffing.

 

[Copperpennies12]

My source was actual testimony from victims of the Japanese waterboarding. Your wiki article doesn't even address that.
Scroll to the bottom of this page to get one description of Japanese waterboarding.

The quote that I used in my previous post ishere.

Apparently your stuck with itchy ears syndrome. Since you are unwilling to critically examine any evidence that is inconvenient to your position, there's obviously no reason to try and continue an intelligent discussion on water torture.

 

[Copperpennies12]

Cheney did that full well knowing the documents couldn't be declassified. It is noteable that somebody from Cheney's administration said the documents he asked to be declassified in no way supported what he claimed. It was Cheney who was doing the bluffing.

And what were the restirctions that did not allow them to be declassified like the other documents were as a matter of political expedience?

 

[BelindaP]

And what were the restirctions that did not allow them to be declassified like the other documents were as a matter of political expedience?

The Justice Department refused to let them be declassified. Were Obama to release them without JD approval, he would face impeachment.

Now, if you're going to accuse me of cherry-picking to fit my views, let's see you post some real data and not just a wiki article. What are your sources that waterboarding by the Japanese was done any differently from what I described? And, where are your sources stating that torture produces good information? And, finally, where are your sources showing that torture is more efficacious than other forms of interrogation?

 

[Copperpennies12]

The Justice Department refused to let them be declassified. Were Obama to release them without JD approval, he would face impeachment.

The JD/AG works for Obama not the other way around. Perhaps you should review David Axelrod's comments on Obama deliberating on whether or not to release the original memos. By the way, who's decision was it to allow the recent round of photographs to be released or not?

Now, if you're going to accuse me of cherry-picking to fit my views, let's see you post some real data and not just a wiki article. What are your sources that waterboarding by the Japanese was done any differently from what I described? And, where are your sources stating that torture produces good information? And, finally, where are your sources showing that torture is more efficacious than other forms of interrogation?

Accuse you of cherry-picking? YOU ADMITTED that you cherry pick. You refuse to accept any information from those who have firsthand experience of torture working. How would I ever be able to overcome your refusal to actually examine the information?

Torture and democracy - Google Books

 

[BelindaP]

Provide information from dispassionate observers that says it works. Surely there are folks who have first-hand knowledge who didn't actually do or approve the torture.

 

[Fin12]

I'm sorry but if you can't pose a question without insulting me or using emotional hyperbole, you aren't worth the time.

Silverback don't dodge the question, it is perfectly valid.

You condone the torture of your enemies, so do your enemies.
You are exactly the same.

Now don't give me that "we are just and good and fighting for what is right"

What do you think your enemies are told.

"We are evil?"

No they are told exactly the same as you.

Reality check silverback, war is clear cut good vs evil, it is just us vs them.

And from the outside, you'll see it's the same thing anyway.

People killing people in the name of "justice", people torturing people to save "innocent" lives, people destroying other peoples homes, and then the other group of people in the name of "justice", "good" and "defending the innocent" do exactly the same.

Don't get me wrong killing is distasteful, but it seems I truly understand that fact, you seem to understand, "killing people who I deem on my side is distasteful"

I see no difference between a government employee bringing a hammer down on someones thumbs, and some Mafia boss wanting his money and to deal justice to the man that wronged him.

Both have their justifications, both actions are utterely reprehensible.

 

[Copperpennies12]

Provide information from dispassionate observers that says it works. Surely there are folks who have first-hand knowledge who didn't actually do or approve the torture.

Perhaps you can respond to my last post without cherry-picking. Your argument relies on artificial limitations that require the "acceptable evidence" to necessarily agree with your position.

Additionally, if someone has firsthand knowledge then they are bound to not reveal classified information. One side has decided to release classified information that agrees with their position while keeping classified information that disproves their position. Since this behavior coincides with your belief, you're content to not seek the truth. As should be apparent, the administration has not denied other information exists, they've merely decided to not release further information.

Luckily for them this does not yet involve a legal case otherwise they'd be prosecuted for withholding exculpatory information.

But since you couldn't even bother to respond to the points in my last post and you have admitted to cherry-picking your information, let's quit the charade. You have absolutely no desire to discuss the truth and I have absolutely no desire to continue a conversation with a person who identifies as a Christian but refuses to consider the truth (not necessarily accept).

 

[Copperpennies12]

Silverback don't dodge the question, it is perfectly valid.

I owe him no answer. He decided to be juvenile and insulting and I will not waste my time with such a person. I also won't waste my time with someone who advocates or endorses such behavior by saying that I'm merely dodging a question. If either of you want answers then you can apologize for the insults and juvenile behavior or you can expect further silence.

 

[keith99]

I owe him no answer. He decided to be juvenile and insulting and I will not waste my time with such a person. I also won't waste my time with someone who advocates or endorses such behavior by saying that I'm merely dodging a question. If either of you want answers then you can apologize for the insults and juvenile behavior or you can expect further silence.

Ah, so anyone who has the unmittigated gall to ask for answers from you is insulting?

Perhaps they are, perhaps they and I do not deserve an answer. I have not played that way for many years now, I learned long ago that there are many who just stand back and listen and such an attitude drives most of them towards favoring the other side in any argument.

So if you are posturing for those who already agree with you then by all means continue, but if you hope to convince the undecided then you just might want to step back and take a look at your tactics.

 

[quatona]

I owe him no answer.

Yes, it´s everyone´s perfect prerogative to dodge a question here.