Torn, Stressed,

[Luther073082]

I must say I'm a little concerned. . . EVERYONE in your family seems to agree with your parents on this. And they give valid reasons, such as anger.

Can you tell us more about his anger. . . or at the very least how your parents have come to see him as an angry person?

I mean sometimes parents don't like the person we are dating because they are over protective or they don't want you getting married this early for whatever reason or because of where this person comes from. And I can get that sometimes you can't be ruled by your parents when they have an invalid reason for disliking him...

But the person having a problem with anger is a very valid reason for not wanting you to marry him. And before I say. . . ok go ahead and don't worry about your parents feelings on the matter, I want to know that their impression of him is wrong.

And that's esspecially true when your extended family is trying to tell you to listen to your parents.

I have a big family, I have like 14 cousins on my dad's side along, 5 natural (genetically related) aunts and uncles plus all of their spouses and my grandmother is still around. . . I can not possibly imagine marrying someone when both of my parents, my brother, and all of my aunt's, uncles, and cousins telling me not to marry them.

 

[SilkRainn]

I was bad and posted this question in a second category.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7690465/
You can get your answer there and let me know what you think! Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore your question!

That's still very vague.

So you're in a long distance relationship with an angry, butter person who you entire family doesn't like. Parents can sometimes be wrong, but a whole family is rarely wrong. Slow down, there is no rush.

 

[Sarah2BH]

Wow... not sure where the references to anger and bitterness come from.
My parents have only pointed out immaturity and controlling.

Some specific examples... dad saw immaturity in the fact that he brought a sword from his collection to show my siblings on one visit. Dad wanted to be asked before another man "brings a weapon into my home".
Mom likes to say that the fact that he "let" me visit him three hours away with noons else in the house but his mom shows immaturity.

The controlling part is less easy to identify. I am a definite caring type so when he visits I do a lot for him. They don't see what he does for me when I'm at his family's house. He does "correct" things or point out faults, but almost always in a humorous way. I don't mind this.

 

[Mrs. Luther073082]

Your parents are older than you and seeing this from an outside perspective that is not tainted with infatuation. They are your parents and probably have your best interests in mind. You say that your relationship with them has not been the best, however. I would see a counselor before making any permanent decisions.

 

[Sarah2BH]

We have been through counseling, but not with my parents' pastor. We are not against doing this for their sake, however.

 

[Luther073082]

Wow... not sure where the references to anger and bitterness come from.
My parents have only pointed out immaturity and controlling.

Some specific examples... dad saw immaturity in the fact that he brought a sword from his collection to show my siblings on one visit. Dad wanted to be asked before another man "brings a weapon into my home".
Mom likes to say that the fact that he "let" me visit him three hours away with noons else in the house but his mom shows immaturity.

The controlling part is less easy to identify. I am a definite caring type so when he visits I do a lot for him. They don't see what he does for me when I'm at his family's house. He does "correct" things or point out faults, but almost always in a humorous way. I don't mind this.

Ok I misread the OP and thought when you wrote about anger and bitterness your parents where saying he had that, but re-reading it I see that you ment that your parents are angry and bitter got it.

First the sword thing sounds somewhat understandable maybe, but that doesn't seem to be a major problem with his character but maybe he just overlooked something that he didn't think would be a problem.

But I would sit down with your parents WITHOUT him present and try to get to the bottom of the whole "controlling" thing. Take notes and get their side of the story as to what he does that they think is controlling.

Next I would ask someone in your family other then your parents that is familiar with him and find out what they think about him. Is the whole thing about them telling you to listen to your parents mean they agree with them or are they just doing this to support your parents.

I think I would next try to talk to someone who knows your fiancee well, someone that is NOT his friend. Not an enemy either but a bit more neutral. . . If he has a pastor that knows him well, that would be a good source to go to. Especially with a pastor you tell him about what your parents think about him and find out what he thinks. Again all of this is without him there.

Because here is the thing. This is high stakes here. If he's not controlling or anything, then you will probably be fine.

But there is also a chance that your parents are right and he is controlling. Controlling men almost always become abusive men. Excessive control is the gateway to abuse. You don't want to marry that.

The thing is that when we are in love we also blind to major faults in some ways. And you could be totally blind to him being controlling because you are in love with him. But then the rest of your family is seeing this and all going "No don't do it!!" because they arn't blind.

So I'll be perfectly honest. . . even though you havn't given me a reason why I should be worried, any time someone has their entire family saying not to marry someone and that the person is controlling. . . that's a red light, that says there could be something there that maybe you don't notice or arn't telling me.

Also answer me these questions:

1. Does this man ever tell you what to wear or suggest what you should wear without your asking? How often?

2. Do you have friends outside of your family, his family, and his friends?

3. Does he ever talk down about your friends?

4. Does he ever talk down about your family?

5. Does he try to prevent you from seeing or talking to either one?

6. Does he have any weird habits or necessities that he insists you follow? Is there anything in his life that needs to be in a certain order and that he insists you follow this order when it doesn't make a lot of sense?

I don't want to seem like I am putting your fiance on the inquizition so to speak. But if your family is saying he's controlling, even if you don't see it, it always deserves further investigation. And I think you should do that too.

Because there are a lot of people, both men and women who made terrible marriage and relationship mistakes that their parents warned them about, but they where too proud and too blind to see what their parents where talking about.

 

[Sarah2BH]

1. Does this man ever tell you what to wear or suggest what you should wear without your asking? How often?

2. Do you have friends outside of your family, his family, and his friends?

3. Does he ever talk down about your friends?

4. Does he ever talk down about your family?

5. Does he try to prevent you from seeing or talking to either one?

6. Does he have any weird habits or necessities that he insists you follow? Is there anything in his life that needs to be in a certain order and that he insists you follow this order when it doesn't make a lot of sense?

It all makes sense. Thanks for the advice. As for the questions:
1. Not at all without me asking. If I ask, he is very honest about whether he likes/dislikes what I chose or am thinking of choosing to wear, but does not insist that I conform to his wants/desires, though I usually do out of respect.

2. I love his mom and his cousins and we hang out all the time. I have met his grandparents and aunts and uncles and have no problem with them either.

3. No

4. Yes (possibly encouraged by me due to my poor relationship with them in the first place and my "need" to vent about them to him?)

5. No way, in fact he pushes me toward spending more time with them when he feels that I spend most of my time with him. He says that I need to repair my end of those relationships and get the most out of the time I have being with them.

6. Weird habits/necessities yes... Insist I follow...? Maybe prefer that I follow would be a better wording. I do some things that annoy him but we make jokes out of it. He has never gotten angry over anything.

I also want to mention that, being from a large family and also being a submissive person, I am used to almost never getting to make decisions like what to watch on TV, what/where/when to eat, etc. Sometimes I am overwhelmed with my fiance's desire to make me happy by letting me make decisions. Most of the time I can decide, but a few times I have wished he would just take control because I couldn't handle making every decision about our day. I just wanted to be with him.

 

[Luther073082]

It all makes sense. Thanks for the advice. As for the questions:
1. Not at all without me asking. If I ask, he is very honest about whether he likes/dislikes what I chose or am thinking of choosing to wear, but does not insist that I conform to his wants/desires, though I usually do out of respect.

2. I love his mom and his cousins and we hang out all the time. I have met his grandparents and aunts and uncles and have no problem with them either.

3. No

4. Yes (possibly encouraged by me due to my poor relationship with them in the first place and my "need" to vent about them to him?)

5. No way, in fact he pushes me toward spending more time with them when he feels that I spend most of my time with him. He says that I need to repair my end of those relationships and get the most out of the time I have being with them.

6. Weird habits/necessities yes... Insist I follow...? Maybe prefer that I follow would be a better wording. I do some things that annoy him but we make jokes out of it. He has never gotten angry over anything.

I also want to mention that, being from a large family and also being a submissive person, I am used to almost never getting to make decisions like what to watch on TV, what/where/when to eat, etc. Sometimes I am overwhelmed with my fiance's desire to make me happy by letting me make decisions. Most of the time I can decide, but a few times I have wished he would just take control because I couldn't handle making every decision about our day. I just wanted to be with him.

Ok on #2 I was asking if YOU have friends that are not primarily his friends (or not his friends prior to your relationship with him). And these people arn't in your family or his.

On #4 does he just agree that your parents have some poor habits or something or does he call them names or something like that.

Because everyone has a certain personality quirk that people find annoying. My mom can be passive-aggressive and my MIL can sometimes give advice when it isn't solicited. But me saying that doesn't mean I don't love and respect them both. . . It's just that I recognize they arn't perfect people.

So I guess I'm asking if you think he ultimatly respects or at least could respect your parents of maybe they relaxed their attitude against him??

Everything else sounds good. I would still check with the people that know the 2 of you best like I described in the earlier post.

In regards to #6: There is definatly a balance that needs to be struck between him stepping up and leading but also you telling him what you are feeling or thinking.

A leader can't really lead very well when he has no idea what those who are following him want and where they want to go.

 

[Sarah2BH]

Completely misread #2. I don't have any close friends, no. I just recently started reaching out to acquaintances for support/advice. I get a lot of mixed answers/feelings.

I feel like he does his best to respect my parents despite the stress that their relationship with us has caused. He has never ceased to reach out to them, attempt to communicate, etc. He has felt like calling them names at times, but always catches himself or apologizes to me.

 

[Mrs. Luther073082]

We have been through counseling, but not with my parents' pastor. We are not against doing this for their sake, however.

I meant counseling with an actual mental health counselor and without your fiance present.

 

[SilkRainn]

I meant counseling with an actual mental health counselor and without your fiance present.

This seems a touch harsh.

I think OP should see her family's counselor, then let them get an opinion from their priest. That would be a gentle way of convincing them that he is suitable without any conflict.

 

[Mrs. Luther073082]

It was in no way meant to be harsh. A mental health counselor could provide an outside, unbiased opinion and would have the training to recognize warning signs of a controlling personality.

 

[Sarah2BH]

Firstly, I want to thank everyone for all of the advice and knowledge.

Second, even though I believe that just about all is said at this point, I just want to clarify:

The purpose of this post was to determine whether it is right or wrong to marry without parental consent. I believe we have determined:
-a couple of you believe that it is Biblically wrong according to scripture because the father has the authority over his daughter until he gives her to the husband to be under his authority.
-most of you believe that mom and dad have the right to input and that the daughter should consider it carefully, but that it is ultimately her decision and it would not be wrong to marry.

Did I miss anything?

 

[SilkRainn]

It was in no way meant to be harsh. A mental health counselor could provide an outside, unbiased opinion and would have the training to recognize warning signs of a controlling personality.

I think it comes off as harsh regardless of your intent. There is nothing mentally unhealthy about a woman with a submissive nature. I would not blame the OP if she felt attacked by your statement.

You know, I came in this thread thinking that the OP was rushing into a bad situation. But she explained herself well, and I think she has a realistic grip on why her parents might not like him. And I think people with different lifestyle choices(not singling out anyone here) became passive aggressive about it.

I see no red flags with this guy. I would still recommend counseling with your parents pastor as a couple, and a bit more of a wait before marriage though. Id advise your bf to be more formal in dealings with your parents, and even if he knows they don't approve of him, never give up on gaining that approval. Again, marriage is for life, it's worth waiting for to make sure it's going to be worth it.

 

[Sarah2BH]

I can see the wisdom in seeking advice from a mental health counselor or some other counselor who could provide unbiased opinion. In a way, that's what this forum is acting as, right?

...what does OP mean?

 

[Sarah2BH]

Obviously OP refers to me... so I'm going to guess "Original Poster". Makes sense.

 

[Luther073082]

Firstly, I want to thank everyone for all of the advice and knowledge.

Second, even though I believe that just about all is said at this point, I just want to clarify:

The purpose of this post was to determine whether it is right or wrong to marry without parental consent. I believe we have determined:
-a couple of you believe that it is Biblically wrong according to scripture because the father has the authority over his daughter until he gives her to the husband to be under his authority.
-most of you believe that mom and dad have the right to input and that the daughter should consider it carefully, but that it is ultimately her decision and it would not be wrong to marry.

Did I miss anything?

It's ultimatly your decision, those passages from the old testament and they where marriage laws for a different culture. Get what you need to know about marriage from the New Testament.

That having been said, I do want to urge you to make that decision extremely carefully.

#1. Your parents and family don't support it. That should be cause for concern, and while that doesn't overwrite your decision, it's a good enough reason to consider this even more carefully.

#2. I am noting you are 22. While that's not too young to make an important decision or to get married, I will also note that at that age there is still a lot of nievety left in you (That's just the way things are, you learn as you get older) So that's why you should be even more careful.

 

[Luther073082]

Obviously OP refers to me... so I'm going to guess "Original Poster". Makes sense.

Origional Poster or sometimes it's just used to mean Origional Post.

 

[LinkH]

It is important to have community recognition, but none of the scriptures indicate that this makes a marriage valid or that it is the key element to it. What was the 'community recognition' of Adam and Eve's marriage? There is no evidence that the angels were present. They may have been, but they might be there viewing a couple of people fornicating in the back of a truck too for all we know.

What we do see at the first wedding is the One standing in the role of Father, presenting the bride. God gave the bride to Adam. I used to have a book about various Hebrew things that said that a word used in the passage was used to refer to father's giving their daughters in marriage. My memory is a bit fuzzy on this.

The New Testament does mention giving in marriage, both in the gospels and the in the epistles. That's what fathers did with their daughters. Fathers also had the right to refuse to give their daughters to men who had spoiled them with premarital fornication.

Women without fathers could be wed as well. Certain daughters whose father died could marry whoever they wanted to within their father's clan and still keep the patriarchal inheritance. The father had had no sons, and the land was allowed to pass to the daughters in this special case as long as they married within the fathers clan. Apparently, Mordecai, who had raised Hadassa, known as Esther, was involved in her being wed to the king. The widow according to Paul, may marry whomsoever she wills, but only in the Lord.

Even if there are some obstacles, I think it's best for your boyfriend to win your parents over first. Just from a practical point of view it is better to do that so you will keep up a good relationship with your family after the wedding, and so he will be sowing good things for his own future. You may have some daughters some day.

 

[Mayzoo]

If you marry, I have a big word of advice. Do not use your parents as sounding boards for any issues in your marriage. Since they are already hesitant, hearing you state any fault your hubby has will just reinforce what they already felt and it may make family restoration impossible. If you do not mention hubby's faults and only show your happiness, then they will likely eventually come around.