Torah Incarnate

Soyeong said:

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law and in Psalm 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law, so you can't removed grace and faith from the Law. The Law is God's instructions for how to grow in a relationship with Him. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, so we are not made righteous by our obedience to the Law, but rather the same grace and faith by which we are made righteous therefore also requires us to do what is righteous in obedience to God's Law.

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I can't begin to explain how contradictory this statement is...

What is God's Law under the NC...? And obedience to it...?

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

You know what Paul could have said...? How bout, "All sin is lawful for me, but no sin is ever good for anybody, ever, period, end of story" "so don't even try to think that or otherwise"... (maybe)...?

Does not ever produce good things, ever, or ever makes for a very easy, or comfortable or satisfying or content, or comfortable, or smooth ride in life, ever... Sin will get in the way of that, all of the time... Get in the way of what you really want, and what God knows you really want/need/desire, ect, and wants to give you those things, but sin can cause some problems with that sometimes...

But, does it affect ones eternal destination or Salvation, or place in the afterlife...? I'm not so sure...? But I wonder if it ever really ever does for the ones God has selected or chosen, cause those ones seem to be sealed no matter what...

God Bless!

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The major problem that Paul was trying to fix was with the Corinthians thinking that everything was lawful, so he was quoting what they were saying in order to argue against it, not endorsing it. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul listed a number of things that were unlawful that will bar someone from inheriting the Kingdom and he gave many other instructions, so he was not suggesting that we should disregard what he or God command. However, the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so when God has said that certain actions are lawful and you think Paul disagreed with God, then you should be quicker to disregard what Paul said than to disregard what God commanded.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's Law through faith is what our salvation from living in disobedience to God's Law looks like. In Romans 1:5, we have recevieved grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, so we are not saved by our obedience to God's Law, but rather the same grace and faith by which we are salved also requires our obedience. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, and sinful, which is essentially what God's Law was given to instruct how to do, so again this is what our salvation looks like.

Neogaia777 said:

I can't begin to explain how contradictory this statement is...

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I was mostly quoting Scripture, so I don't see anything contradictory in what I said, so please explain what you think that I need to clarify or what you think was wrong.

What is God's Law under the NC...? And obedience to it...?

God Bless!

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God's Law straightforwardly refers to all of the laws that God has ever given. While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same instructions for how to express His character traits. For example of the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness were to change when the New Covenant was given, then God's righteousness would not be eternal, but God's righteousness is eternal (Psalm 119:142), therefore any instructions that God has ever given for how to do what is righteous will always be valid regardless of which covenant we are under, but as part of the New Covenant, we are told that those who do not follow those instructions are not children of God (1 John 3:10).

Tone said:

"Everyone who believes that Yeshua is The Messiah is born from God, and everyone who loves him who begot, loves also the one who is begotten of him."
1 John 5:1

That better?

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Yes

Tone said:

So, what exactly do you see in the relationship?

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For who?

Soyeong said:

The major problem that Paul was trying to fix was with the Corinthians thinking that everything was lawful, so he was quoting what they were saying in order to argue against it, not endorsing it. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul listed a number of things that were unlawful that will bar someone from inheriting the Kingdom and he gave many other instructions, so he was not suggesting that we should disregard what he or God command. However, the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so when God has said that certain actions are lawful and you think Paul disagreed with God, then you should be quicker to disregard what Paul said than to disregard what God commanded.

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So did Paul have a bad case of diarrhea of the mouth?

Soyeong said:

Where did they so no?

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What exactly are you looking for? are you looking for specific words? If so give me some idea by saying for example....

The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is revealed through God's Law. Gentiles are either under God's Law and are obligated to refrain from sin and are not under God's Law, have no obligation to refrain from sin, and have never needed Jesus to give himself to redeem them from all Lawlessness.

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Well hmmmm! It sure seems there was no standard according to you for some 1000 or more years. Now just exactly where does the OT say gentiles are subject to the law given to Israel in the desert? I can't find it. God doesn't give permission for any to sin. I don't think you understand some of the reasons God gave the law. There are plain statements in the Book of the Law why. You're pro law and missed that? Maybe you didn't want to hear it.

However, God is sovereign, so all Gentiles are under God's Law and are obligated to obey it and to refrain from sin regardless of whether or not they are in a covenant relationship with Him. For example, God judged the world with the Flood for their sins, God will judge the world in Revelation, God threatened to judge Nineveh, and God judged Sodom and Gomorrah for their Lawless deeds (2 Peter 2:6-8). They didn’t get the option to choose whether or not they wanted to be under God’s Law and neither do we. The choice we do get to make is whether or not we are going to heed the Gospel message, repent, and obey.

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Please quote what law the world is under. Sodom and Gomorrah weren't judged by the famous 10 because they didn't exist according to Moses in Deut 5.

Soyeong said:

Indeed I do, and that's not what it says. If you make a claim about what the Bible says, then you should be able to quote it.

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I see. You don't provide any quotes it does. Since you have access and are or seem to be a student of the law (OT), why is it you need a quote from me and don't provide one contrary to my claim?

Moses says very clearly the covenant law was given to Israel only in Deut 5. This covenant is also quoted therein. The quote is from the stone tablets according to Deut 4:13. Ex 31:13, 17 specifically says the 4th is a sign of that covenant. There's no mention anywhere this covenant was given to the people of Canaan or Egypt from which they were delivered. No mention of the people of Ur included either. Jeremiah a prophet of Israel said there will be a new covenant. The word new here means not in prior existence. It doesn't mean renew as self defined in the same sentence of 31:31-33. Then there's no mention of the 4th commandment in any list of commandments found in the NT. There's not any mention of the sabbath in any list of sins either. Kinda strange that it's said to be a requirement in the NT or of its believers.

Romans 2:6-8 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

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So what works are you going to tell God you did come that fateful day? I know what God will say because of Scripture even from the OT. Your righteousness will be called filthy rags and cast into the fire. There's only one way to get through those pearly gates.

JN 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The bolded have specific meaning and are the words of Jesus.

These verses are fully in agreement with Moses and in favor of those doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law and are against those who do not obey it. In Romans 2:13, only the doers of the Law will be justified. In Romans 2:26, the way to tell that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 10:12-16, 30:6)

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You forgot the words of Ps 14:3 and Rom 3:23. They give you a headache. Neither will allow for your explanation. There are no doers of the law. My Father made sure there would be none. That is what drives us to Jesus. Well some of us. Jesus nor the Holy Spirit enables any one to be a doer of the law. None of our works even the goods works God created us to do have anything to bring about our salvation. One of your buddies references Eph 2:8 and never verse 9 part of the sentence. I think it's because they believe works can cause salvation.

God's Law refers to the Law that God has given, which everyone is under because God is sovereign, and I listed some examples where Gentiles were under God's Law and were obligated to obey it.

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Not if you reference Gen 26:5 or refer to Adam subject to the law issued to Israel only. Only Israeli are subject to the famous 10 per Moses as I've shown above.

You are so focused on whom the Law was given to that you've lost sight of whom it was given by. There are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalm 103:7, and many others, so the Law was not given as instructions for how to live as a Jew, but as instructions for how to express God's character traits, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. Jesus expressed these character traits through his actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is what it should look like when he is living in us. Our sanctification is about being made to be more like Christ, to have and to express the same character traits, so there is no sense in Gentiles wanting to be made like him while wanting nothing to do with what he was like.

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Incorrect. Everything you referenced is said to Israel only. As such it applies to Israel only. There's not a shred of evidence the law was given to anyone else even in Romans. Your statements are the result of bad indoctrination, not Scripture.

So while the Law was given to Israel, it was never intended only for Israel, but rather it was given to Israel in part so that they would be equipped to be a light to the nations and bless them through teaching them to repent from theirs sins and how to walk in God's ways in obedience to His Law (Isaiah 2:2-3, 49:6). In Deuteronomy 4:5-8, the intended reaction from the nations of seeing Israel's obedience to God's Law was to marvel and how great and wise God is. In other words, the Law was intention to be used as a tool to evangelize the nations and draw them into a covenant relationship with God. There is no sense in a Gentile wanting to become a follower of God while refusing to follow the instructions that He gave for how to follow Him.

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Ah yes fear was struck in the hearts of the local nations of the middle east because of God and Israel. Read about that in Joshua. I disagree that Israel was to spread the law to other nations as you seem to think with Isa 49:6. I think this is a direct reference to Jesus the light of the world. JN 8:12, 12:36

Indeed, there are many examples of God's laws being given throughout Genesis prior to when they were given. Sin was in the world before the Law was given (Romans 5:13), so there was was nothing that became sinful when the Mosaic Covenant was made or that ceased being sinful after it has become obsolete, but rather the Law revealed what has always been and will always be sinful. So if under the New Covenant you believe that we should still refrain from what God has revealed to be sin, then you should believe that we should still obey His Law.

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Not quite correct.

Tone said:

"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Is this guy lawless, because he breaks the Torah, or because he doesn't believe (to say the very least) in Messiah?

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This isn't a human. It's our enemy clothed in a human body.

Tone said:

Ha ha, I just heard a good one...

"...so, suppose you look outside and see a lemon tree being obedient and producing lemons. Would that be considered legalism?"
(Paraphrase of Brad Scott, The WildBranch Ministry)

Then someone in the audience says,

"No, it would be lemonism" (paraphrase)

Ha Ha Ha!


As an aside (not the source):

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Nice joke. Now please answer my question.

Tone said:

Your question was: "for who?".

My question was: "So, what exactly do you see in the relationship?".

The context is the relationship between "YHWH and His Torah".

So, what exactly do you see in the relationship between YHWH and His Torah?

Thank you.

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When it come to Torah, the law and in your case the covenant law made with Israel the relationship of the Torah and God is with Israel only. The relationship God has with mankind has changed with the giving of His only begotten dear Son Jesus. There's no more law in the relationship between mankind (including Israel) and God. The law served its purpose.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Now I've answered your question twice. Are you going to answer my question?

But since you most likely won't answer my question I will -

1 Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Tone said:

You don't have to qualify it. I asked for your thoughts concerning the relationship between YHWH and His Torah...no third parties included...yet.

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What third parties are you talking about? Surely not those you mentioned (Torah and God). I quoted Scripture you seem top be calling a third party.

Tone said:

You don't have to qualify it. I asked for your thoughts concerning the relationship between YHWH and His Torah...no third parties included...yet.

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Sorry but I do. I need to narrow things down because you'll only argue about anything I say. You asked for personal opinion and I gave you mine backed with Scripture. But that's not what you wanted. So I've got an idea - PM me with what you want to say so I can be sure to post it.