Torah Incarnate

Soyeong said:

In Romans 7:21-8:2, Paul said that he delighted in obeying God's Law and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, which he served with his flesh, so he straightforwardly equated God's Law with the Law of the Spirit and contrasted them both with the law of sin and death.

Click to expand...

Excuse me getting down to more detail but when you say 'God's Law' are you referring to the Torah, the Law that only Jesus could keep, the 10 commandments, or something else.

When you say the Law of the Spirit is this the Law He put in believers hearts, the OT law, The Torah, or maybe the inner sense of right and wrong He gave to all men recorded in Romans 1:20? or Romans 2:15 or maybe something else. - it's OK to not be sure...

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Carl Emerson said:

Excuse me getting down to more detail but when you say 'God's Law' are you referring to the Torah, the Law that only Jesus could keep, the 10 commandments, or something else.

Click to expand...

"God's Law" refers to all of the laws given by God, which includes the Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 5:31-33). This is a Law that God said was not too difficult for His children to keep (Deuteronomy 30:11-14).

When you say the Law of the Spirit is this the Law He put in believers hearts, the OT law, The Torah, or maybe the inner sense of right and wrong He gave to all men recorded in Romans 1:20? or Romans 2:15 or maybe something else. - it's OK to not be sure...

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Click to expand...

Either the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses, or they are in disagreement about which laws we should follow. However, I see no disagreement, but rather in John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him, we will obey his teachings, if we don't love him, then we will not obey his teachings, and that his teachings are not own, but that of the Father, so if we love Jesus, then we will obey the Father's teachings, and the New Covenant involves God writing His Law on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33).

Our conscience is informed by the highest level or moral law that we believe. However, our conscience part of our fallen nature, so it is not perfect, which is why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 4:3 that even though he was not aware of anything against himself he was not justified. So our conscience helps us to live in accordance with the moral law, but it does not replace it, and therefore is not the ultimate determiner of our spiritual condition. Our conscience is capable of warning us when our spiritual condition is in danger, but it is not God's Law, and needs to be informed by God's Law in order to function correctly.

In Romans 14, there are weak Christians whose conscience is not informed in a mature way, where their conscience won't let them do what they really would be free to do, so again our conscience does not replace God's Law. Someone's conscience can be so misinformed that their glory is in their shame (Philippians 3:19), where both their mind and their conscience are defiled (Titus 1:15). So the first way to destroy the work of conscience is to misinform it where you don't give it the true Law of God and the second way is to silence it when it speaks. In 1 Timothy 4:2, Paul spoke about a wounded or seared conscience, and a good indicator of this is if someone sees nothing wrong with continuing to do what God has revealed in His Law to be sin.

Carl Emerson said:

Galatians chapter 3 spells out clearly that our righteousness is by faith and those trying to justify keeping the law to achieve some righteous gain are in fact under a curse.

But those trusting in His righteousness are free from the curse and enjoy the Blessings promised to Abraham and all his descendants in the family of faith in which he is the father.

Romans 4:11 following, says Abraham is... "the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised...."

So both believing Jew and Gentile have always been justified by faith only.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Click to expand...

God's Law straightforwardly does what it was given to do and does not do what it was not given to do, so I agree that we are not made righteous by obeying God's Law primarily because it was never given for that purpose, but that does not mean that we should not obey it for the purposes for which it was given. It is not as though the fact that we are not made righteous by obeying God means that we don't need to obey God.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's Law and obedience to God's instructions is about depending upon him to guide us in how to rightly live and has never been about depending upon our own efforts to save us. Every example of living by faith in the Bible is also an example of someone living in obedience to God's will, such as with the examples listed in Hebrews 11, whereas disobedience to God's instructions is referred to as breaking faith, such as in Numbers 5:6. In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so obedience to God's Law is what faith looks like. While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was credited as righteous, it is also true that Abraham believed God, so he didn't hesitate to obey God's command to offer Isaac, so Abraham expressed his faith through his obedience to God. So God's Law is of faith.

In Leviticus 18:5, Deuteronomy 30:15-16, Galatians 3:10, Romans 10:5, and Matthew 19:17, the one who obeys God's Law will obtain life by it, which would not be the case if it were not of faith. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law that was of works with a law that was of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in Romans 3:31 that our faith upholds God's Law, so again it is of faith. So in Galatians 3:10-13, Paul spoke about works of the law, which are not of faith, and contrasted them with the Book of the Law, which is of faith. In Deuteronomy 30:15-16, obedience to the Law brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse and in Romans 8:3-4, Jesus came to set us free from sin, which is defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so being set free from the curse of the Law is being set free from living in transgression of it, so that we can be free to enjoy the blessing of living in obedience to the Law.

Tone said:

What I had in mind here is the curse of the law being done away with as He cried out "Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani".

Click to expand...

God is not an unloving Father who gave the Law in order to curse His children, but rather He said that it was for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, obedience to the Law brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so the Law itself is not a curse, but rather the curse is living in disobedience to the Law. Jesus gave himself to free us from sin and sin is defined as disobedience to God's Law (1 John 3:4), so being set free from the curse of the Law is being set free from living in disobedience to it so that we can be free to enjoy the blessing of the Law. In Titus 2:11-14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Law, but in order to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe in what he accomplished on the cross, then that should cause us to become zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's Law (Acts 21:20).

Tone said:

Nnniiiccee...I need post #s 18 and 19

Here:

What commandments is Jesus talking about?

*Please

Click to expand...

I'll take a look, I'm not sure it would be best to just copy those posts in the middle of a thread.

Soyeong said:

"God's Law" refers to all of the laws given by God, which includes the Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 5:31-33). This is a Law that God said was not too difficult for His children to keep (Deuteronomy 30:11-14).

Click to expand...

What then was the law that Jesus kept for us that was too hard for anyone else to keep?

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Carl Emerson said:

What then was the law that Jesus kept for us that was too hard for anyone else to keep?

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Click to expand...

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Law as being instructions for how to love God and our neighbor, so someone saying that Jesus kept the Law for us so that we don't have would be like saying that Jesus loved the Father and our neighbor for us so that we don't have do, but rather he did so in part so that we would have an example to follow, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). In 1 John 5:3, it confirms that to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome.

The fault that God found with the covenant was not with His righteousness or with the difficulty of His righteous laws, but rather God found fault with the people because of the hardness of their hearts. So the solution to the problem was not to do away with God's righteous standard, but to do away with what was hindering us from meeting it. This is why the New Covenant involves God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us to obey His Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), sending His Son to free us from sin so that we might be free to obey the Law and meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4), and putting His Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts so that we will obey it (Jeremiah 31:33).

Thanks for your reply...

How do you interpret the following passage from Galations 2...

14 "For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross..."

The Greek word KATARGEO translated 'abolish' carries the meaning of being rendered useless or inactive.

Please understand that I am exploring where you stand on these important matters.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Carl Emerson said:

Thanks for your reply...

How do you interpret the following passage from Galations 2...

14 "For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross..."

The Greek word KATARGEO translated 'abolish' carries the meaning of being rendered useless or inactive.

Please understand that I am exploring where you stand on these important matters.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Click to expand...

Paul was a servant of God, not His enemy, so I don't see a good reason to interpret these verses as speaking against God's Law. In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's Law, but rather our faith upholds it, so Ephesians 2:14-16 can't be referring to the same law. Furthermore, Titus 2:14 does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from God's Law, but to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works. In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, everything spoken by God is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, training in righteousness and equipping us to do every good work, which is primarily referring to the Mosaic Law spoken by God in Deuteronomy 5:31-33. In Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we have been made new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works, so it wouldn't make sense to interpret Paul as saying a few verses later that Christ gave himself to do away with his eternal instructions for how to do good works. Eternal instructions for how to act in according to God's goodness can't be ended without first ending God's eternal goodness.

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Law as being instructions for how to love God and our neighbor, so it was not acting as a dividing wall of hostility and I don't see a good reason why God would give laws with the intention of creating a dividing wall of hostility or why He would need to break down His own laws as though He made a mistake in giving them. The Law was given to Israel so that they would be equipped be a light to the nations and to bless them by teaching them to repent from their sins and how to walk in God's ways in obedience to His Law (Isaiah 2:2-3, 49:6, Matthew 5:13-16). In Deuteronomy 4:5-8, the intended reaction from Gentiles seeing Israel's obedience to God's Law was to marvel at God's greatness and wisdom. In other words, the Law was given to Israel with the intention that they would use it as a tool to evangelize the nations, not to create a dividing wall of hostility between them.

Zechariah 8:20-23 “Thus says the Lord of hosts: Peoples shall yet come, even the inhabitants of many cities. 21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the Lord and to seek the Lord of hosts; I myself am going.’ 22 Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord. 23 Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’”

So if I were to take a stab at what Paul was referring to in Ephesian 2:14-16, then I think it would be man-made laws, such as the one that Peter mentioned in Acts 10:28, which forbade Jews to visit or associate with Gentiles.

Tone said:

@Soyeong

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "“Not everyone who says to Me, " ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"

Do you think that the spirit of anti-messiah has something to do with being anti-torah?

Click to expand...

Indeed, in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, the anti-messiah is referred to the man of Torah-lessness.

Soyeong said:

So if I were to take a stab at what Paul was referring to in Ephesian 2:14-16, then I think it would be man-made laws, such as the one that Peter mentioned in Acts 10:28, which forbade Jews to visit or associate with Gentiles.

Click to expand...

OK... This is the challenge of constructing a systematic theology - what do we do with the verses that don't fit well...

If you don't mind me raising another issue...

Rahab is referred to twice in the NT as a righteous believer yet she was not only a harlot but lied about where the spies were. It is hard to see a Torah obedient believer here...

At the end of the day we all have to have a broad understanding we are comfortable with.

For me I see the Law of the Spirit, planted in believers hearts is His living Word for each individual circumstance faced, and replaces the imperfect Law of Moses which could never be a final judge of how to act in every situation.

Jesus alone kept every aspect of the Law of Moses and had the authority to break its curse over believers.

As the temple veil was rent the authority of the priesthood and the law was removed but our obligation to obey His Law of the Spirit in our hearts remains.

In Colossians 2 we read... "He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. 16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Central to the Law of Moses is the Sabbath here specifically mentioned as not a matter to be judged by... because the authority of the Law of Moses has been taken away and replaced by the living Word of Jesus being the Law of the Spirit within.

The Torah is imperfect but has served a beautiful purpose for a season.

His Word, Jesus, is however truely incarnate and will never pass away.

The Jews have idolised the Torah and in so doing missed the living word when He came.

We must be careful not to repeat this error.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Carl Emerson said:

OK... This is the challenge of constructing a systematic theology - what do we do with the verses that don't fit well...

If you don't mind me raising another issue...

Rahab is referred to twice in the NT as a righteous believer yet she was not only a harlot but lied about where the spies were. It is hard to see a Torah obedient believer here...

At the end of the day we all have to have a broad understanding we are comfortable with.

Click to expand...

There are a number of God's laws that appear to conflict with each other, such as what happened when someone wanted to obey the command to circumcise their baby on the 8th day and it happened to fall on the Sabbath. However, it was not the case that they were forced to sin by breaking one of the two commands no matter what they chose to do, but that one of the commands was never intended to prevent the other from being obeyed. This is why priests were held innocent for performing their duties on the Sabbath or why David and his men were held innocent for eating the shewbread in Matthew 12:1-8.

Some Pharisees had reasoned that it was unlawful to work on the Sabbath and that healing someone was work, therefore it was unlawful to heal on the Sabbath. However, we are also commanded to love our neighbor, and it would not be loving our neighbor to refuse to heal them. All of the other commandments in the Bible hang on the greatest two commandments because they are all intended to be examples of what it looks like to correctly obey them, so no commandment was intended to prevent us from obeying the greatest two commandments, which is why Jesus ruled that it was lawful to heal on the Sabbath. So there are conceivable situations where the command to love our neighbor takes priority over other commands, such as with Rahab.

For me I see the Law of the Spirit, planted in believers hearts is His living Word for each individual circumstance faced, and replaces the imperfect Law of Moses which could never be a final judge of how to act in every situation.

Click to expand...

The Bible does not say that the Law is imperfect, on the contrary:

Psalm 19:7-11 The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple; 8 the precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes; 9 the fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; the rules of the Lord are true, and righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb. 11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.

If you believe that the Psalms are Scripture and therefore express a correct view of God's Law, then you should share it. Part of what led me to change my views concerning God's Law was the realization that the negative view of God's Law that I had been taught was the opposite of the extremely positive view that David had expressed even though I considered the Psalms to be Scripture, and that needed to change. When I read the NT as though the authors considered the Psalms to be Scripture and were in complete agreement with them, I found that the NT made much more sense and had much more continuity than I had given it credit for.

There are more ways to do what is righteous or sinful than the Law specifically prescribes or prohibits, so the Law is spiritual in that it has always been intended to teach us deeper spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples, and which are the divine nature/character traits of God, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. If you were to look at the life of someone who expressed these character traits through their actions and were to compare them with the life of someone who lived in obedience to the Mosaic Law, then you would not be able to tell the difference because both would look like the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. Our sanctification is about being made to be more like Christ, to have an to express the same character traits.

Jesus alone kept every aspect of the Law of Moses and had the authority to break its curse over believers.

As the temple veil was rent the authority of the priesthood and the law was removed but our obligation to obey His Law of the Spirit in our hearts remains.

Click to expand...

Can you please point to somewhere in the OT Bible where it suggests that someone who is able to obey the Law perfectly removes our obligation to obey it?

In Colossians 2 we read... "He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. 16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Click to expand...

Whenever someone was crucified, the people would write out a sign that listed the charges against them and nail it to their cross in order to announce why they were being executed (Matthew 27:37). This serves as a perfect analogy for the list of sins/violations of God's Law that we have committed being nailed to Christ's cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but has nothing to do with ending our obligation to any of God's eternal laws. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Law, but in order to redeem us from all Lawlessness.

In Colossians 2:16-23, the Colossians were keeping the Sabbath and God's other holy days in obedience to His commands in accordance with the example that Jesus set for us to follow, they were being judged by those teaching human traditions and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, and Paul was writing to encourage them not to let any man judge them and keep them from obeying God.

Again, Paul was a servant of God, not His enemy, so he should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying what God has commanded, and when we look at the views of the people judging the Colossians, then we see Paul's problem was with man-made teachings, not with the holy, righteous, and good commandments of God. However, the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so when God has commanded to keep His holy days and you think that Paul spoke against obeying God, then you should be quicker to disregard what Paul said than to disregard what God has commanded, but again I don't think it needs to come down to that. In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish the Law, but rather our faith upholds it, so we should not interpret him as seeking to do the opposite. Does your faith uphold the Law?

Central to the Law of Moses is the Sabbath here specifically mentioned as not a matter to be judged by... because the authority of the Law of Moses has been taken away and replaced by the living Word of Jesus being the Law of the Spirit within.

The Torah is imperfect but has served a beautiful purpose for a season.

His Word, Jesus, is however truely incarnate and will never pass away.

The Jews have idolised the Torah and in so doing missed the living word when He came.

We must be careful not to repeat this error.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Click to expand...

In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, God told Moses everything to write down without departing from it either to the right or to the left, so all of the Mosaic Law is God's Law, and you are trying to replace God's Law with God's Law as though Jesus and the Spirit were in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law, in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh, who are enemies of God, and who refuse to submit to God's Law, and in Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it.

While I agree that we should not idolize the Torah, we should nevertheless give the highest authority to the words that have been spoken by God. In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, everything spoken by God is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, training in righteousness, and equipping us to do every good work, which would not be true if it has been replaced. The Law is God's Word and Jesus is God's Word made flesh, so there is no disagreement. In Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because they diligently tested everything that Paul said against OT Scriptures to see if what he said was true. About 1/3 of the verses in the NT contain quotes or allusions to the OT and the NT authors did this thousands of times in order to show that it supported what they were saying and to show that they hadn't departed from it either to the right or to the left, so they certainly saw the OT as still being authoritative.

There is a "perfect Law", but it cannot be fully contained by the letter, because the entire world, (or in this day and age we might say "universe"), could contain what was, or would need to be, written (down) and/or expressed in writing to fully express it, or explain Him...

But, there is a way for us to know it and Him though...

He (God) has made a way... But, it will be very much more different from what you knew before, or the letter, or by just the letter alone before...

God Bless!

Carl Emerson said:

Thanks for your reply...

How do you interpret the following passage from Galations 2...

14 "For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross..."

The Greek word KATARGEO translated 'abolish' carries the meaning of being rendered useless or inactive.

Please understand that I am exploring where you stand on these important matters.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Click to expand...

You probably mean Eph 2:14-15.

ace of hearts said:

You probably mean Eph 2:14-15.

Click to expand...

Yes, exactly - sorry for the error...

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Tone said:

Psalms 1:1-2


Jeremiah 17:7-8

Click to expand...

You lost me here in regard to the subject of the thread.