Steve Petersen
Senior Veteran
Sin is trangression of the Law. (1 John 3:4)
Jesus never sinned.
Therefore, Jesus never transgressed the law.
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Sin is trangression of the Law. (1 John 3:4)
Jesus never sinned.
Therefore, Jesus never transgressed the law.
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AnonUser2013
Guest
Lets not forget here that Jesus is God and God did give Torah. So to say that Jesus didnt care about Torah or espouse it in any way is completely false. I'd find it more heretical to say that he opposed Torah. But at the same time, to say that whether one eats pork or wears tzitzit or goes to a fair on a Saturday... are these things really so important in the grand scheme of things? And especially in our own culture today... just a few things to keep in mind.
To me, I see Torah as having some great wisdom and I figure God knows best so if He says pork is unclean then I believe Him. But at the same time if someone serves sausage and eggs or something, am I going to ask them 'is this pork or beef/turkey?' I put people above food.
To me, I see Torah as having some great wisdom and I figure God knows best so if He says pork is unclean then I believe Him. But at the same time if someone serves sausage and eggs or something, am I going to ask them 'is this pork or beef/turkey?' I put people above food.
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There certianly good not great reasons to not be involved in the MJ forums. I do not read or post in them for good reason.
bugkiller
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AnonUser2013
Guest
Theres good reason not to debate in any denominational 'corner' of the forum for the same reaons. I dont see MJs arguing amongst themselves a whole lot here on CF, but I might be missing it?
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New_Wineskin
Contributor
The Lord did give the Torah - to the Israelites .
Jesus did espouse the Torah- to the Jews .
What does that have to do with Gentiles *needing* it ?
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AnonUser2013
Guest
A different standard for Jews and a different standard for Gentiles, that sounds rather unfair and not like our God at all! I thought God was no respector of persons. Either everyone who loves God should embrace Torah or everyone should be free from obligation to following it.
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Zeek
Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
I think you will find that Messianic Believers have the capacity to argue as much as anyone else.
Some people like to point the finger though and stir up strife.
Some Messianic things I go along with, others I don't.
I also think that when people think of Messianics, they get a wrong impression that they are all into imposing Jewish tradition and Mosaic Law on other Believers...that simply isn't true...those that do are right out on the fringe.
Messianic-generally means Jewish Believers and Gentile Believers that prefer to have a more traditional Jewish flavour/tradition to their communities and get back to re-introducing some elements that have been lost or deliberately eradicated by the rise of anti-Semitism in the early centuries within the Christian community.
Bear in mind that it is in its infancy...some of it is flakey, some of it is a bit weird (Gentiles trying to be Jews), some of it verges on cultish.....but a lot of it is forging ahead and breaking new ground with some great in-depth teaching relating to the specific Jewish nature of the Scriptures...one just has to be a bit discerning, but then that could be said of the rest of the Body...from the traditional Catholic and Orthodox communions, to the smorgasbord of Protestant congregations...a rich and lively variety!
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Zeek
Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
There is a distinction between the Torah of Moses and the Torah of Jesus..I have tried to express it as clearly as I can, but it keeps getting ignored.
Torah simply means 'instruction'...and when we read 'Law' in the New Testament, it confises the issue and no real distinction is made at times...which is why the context usually gives the clue to what is being expressed...for example in Acts 15 we see verse 5 saying two distinct things that people often overlook....circumcision plus the torah of Moses...one is an act of Covenant, the other subjection to a set of Laws.
I won't rabbit on, but check it out and see if you can begin to get a handle of what all the fuss is about, and why it is vital that Believers understand the Law of Moses is not what justifies us.
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AnonUser2013
Guest
Im not trying to ignore you at all, my comment about it being unfair was directed towards another member.
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PaladinValer
Traditional Orthodox Anglican
- Apr 7, 2004
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...why do they stare.
It is merely the only-historic, only-orthodox, and only-traditional Christian belief.
Straw Man.
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NorrinRadd
Xian, Biblicist, Fideist, Pneumatic, Antinomian
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No. From the Law-keeper point of view, every dot and dash of the Law is eternal, and anyone denying it is denying the God Who gave it.
From my point of view, Paul taught that law-keeping is useless, actually engenders the sin it purports to prohibit, and in terms of salvation severs us from Christ.
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annier
Guest
Yes, I believe he did. So did John the baptist. They warned the people to escape it's wrath
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Steve Petersen
Senior Veteran
Then Paul was severed. He kept the Law.
He participated in the Festivals (Acts 18 20-22)
He took a Nazirite vow (Act 18:18-19)
He helped in the Nazirite vow of others (Acts 21:20-26)
He brought offerings to the Temple (Acts 24:17-18)
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Zeek
Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
Can you show me a couple of Scriptures so that I can see where you are coming from on this, it is getting tricky to follow because so many people seem to have a different understanding about the whole import of what is being spoken about.
Also permit me to give a passage that gives a sense of what I am trying to get across...unsuccessfully. (ps I was generalizing when I used the word 'ignor' in another post)
1Cor 9: 19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
Just use the word Torah instead of Law, and perhaps you will see.
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New_Wineskin
Contributor
That is not what I wrote .
According to those that push the Torah , it is not required for salvation which means that Christians are not obligated to following it . Yet , they continue to push it for some reason .
This is the cycle that happens with me ...
They ask if the Sabbath was done away with . I answer that it doesn't matter because , as a Gentile , I would not have been under the Law before becoming a Christian ; observing it did not bring me salvation in becoming a Christian ; and , the Lord has not told me to observe it after becoming a Christian . They then state that they have not said that it was required for salvation . I respond , good - that means that the Lord doesn't care if I observe it . Anything required of a Christian because they are a Christian is a requirement for obtaining/maintaining salvation/righteousness .
Everything should be good at that point but they begin again implying that the Sabbath was not done away with . Ok . So it still exists . What does that mean for me as you have already stated that it is not a requirement for me ?
So ... what gives ? No answer that does not include circular reasoning .
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AnonUser2013
Guest
ITs really not all that circular. When an MJ pushes the Sabbath its because they feel its meaningful and theres a reason God gave man the Sabbath as a day of rest. (You know the term Sabbatical? Same derivative). It's not a matter of salvation to MJs. But to them it is one way of obeying God and I mean isnt obeying God what we should be doing? So the argument isnt 'do I need this to be saved?", the argument moreso should lie in whether God wants us to obey Him in matters of Torah or not, that is what the whole Torah debate should be. Salvational matters arent an issue, so dont twist it into such or blame the MJs for making it such, they arent and I can see that.
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