Torah debates

[Zeek]

I have been around people who are into Messianic teachings and have read many forums regarding the issue. What I find is lot of confusion, strife and false teachings that have nothing to do with the word of God. One side tells you that it is biblical, the other side tells you it is not. Who do you believe? One side disagrees with another, one group believes that Jesus is God while the other side doesn't believe He is God.

Many of these groups twist scripture to suit their own thinking or belief sytem. When I had started to read and get involved in some of the Messianic Forums it seemed like everyone had soemthing they wanted to share. I had to stop because I was getting confused. God is not the author of confusion. The enemy Satan is. He is very good at deceiving many.

Some groups get into heated arguements. They can't discuss without bashing one another. Where is God's love in that?

Moriah Ruth

I think there is a lot of confusion in the Body of Messiah generally....Messianics don't have the monopoly.

 

[Zeek]

the torah was never given to gentiles.

What terminology do you think Pauls teachings to the Gentiles comes under if not Torah?

I think many Gentile Believers today baulk at the word 'Torah', because they have been taught a negative theology about Torah, and see it only as something that was heavy and burdonsome, but fail to see that Torah is ongoing, perfect and liberating.

Which is why I believe Jesus spoke about His 'yoke' being 'different'....but a 'yoke' nevertheless....

Matt 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30 “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

 

[Frogster]

What terminology do you think Pauls teachings to the Gentiles comes under if not Torah?

I think many Gentile Believers today baulk at the word 'Torah', because they have been taught a negative theology about Torah, and see it only as something that was heavy and burdonsome, but fail to see that Torah is ongoing, perfect and liberating.

Which is why I believe Jesus spoke about His 'yoke' being 'different'....but a 'yoke' nevertheless....

Matt 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30 “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

peter in acts 15 called the law a yoke, and so did Paul, and james in acts 15 said not to burden the church with it.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Which of these shall we do away with then:

Leviticus 19: 1 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: ‘Be holy because I, the Lord your God, am holy.

3 “‘Each of you must respect your mother and father, and you must observe my Sabbaths. I am the Lord your God.

4 “‘Do not turn to idols or make metal gods for yourselves. I am the Lord your God.

5 “‘When you sacrifice a fellowship offering to the Lord, sacrifice it in such a way that it will be accepted on your behalf. 6 It shall be eaten on the day you sacrifice it or on the next day; anything left over until the third day must be burned up. 7 If any of it is eaten on the third day, it is impure and will not be accepted. 8 Whoever eats it will be held responsible because they have desecrated what is holy to the Lord; they must be cut off from their people.

9 “‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner. I am the Lord your God.

11 “‘Do not steal.

“‘Do not lie.

“‘Do not deceive one another.

12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.

13 “‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor.

“‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight.

14 “‘Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the Lord.

15 “‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people.

“‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the Lord.

17 “‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.

18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

19 “‘Keep my decrees.

“‘Do not mate different kinds of animals.

“‘Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.

“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

20 “‘If a man sleeps with a female slave who is promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment.[a] Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the tent of meeting for a guilt offering to the Lord. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the Lord for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.

23 “‘When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden. For three years you are to consider it forbidden[c]; it must not be eaten. 24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the Lord. 25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the Lord your God.

26 “‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.

“‘Do not practice divination or seek omens.

27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord.

29 “‘Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.

30 “‘Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the Lord.

31 “‘Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God.

32 “‘Stand up in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly and revere your God. I am the Lord.

33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

35 “‘Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight or quantity. 36 Use honest scales and honest weights, an honest ephah[d] and an honest hin.[e] I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt.

37 “‘Keep all my decrees and all my laws and follow them. I am the Lord.’”

 

[Frogster]

Which of these shall we do away with then:

can u go to temple?

 

[Zeek]

peter in acts 15 called the law a yoke, and so did Paul, and james in acts 15 said not to burden the church with it.

So from this are we to understand that the Law, meant all Law, or does it relate specifically to the Law of Moses, (Torah of Moses)?

I believe as well that these were formative years, a period of transition where the grace of G-d was actively at work to bring about the implications of how things were changing..a paradigm shift if you like.

 

[Frogster]

So from this are we to understand that the Law, meant all Law, or does it relate specifically to the Law of Moses, (Torah of Moses)?

I believe as well that these were formative years, a period of transition where the grace of G-d was actively at work to bring about the implications of how things were changing..a paradigm shift if you like.

in acts 15 circumcison meant become jewish, and that would bind the whole law anyway, gal 5:3, if snipped, keep the whole law.

there are more citations to prove the law was one, and one did it all.



Josh 1:8, Deut 28:15, Deut 28:58, Lev 26:15, James 2:10, Gal 3:10, Gal 5:3, Heb 9:19, Ex 24:3, Ex 24:7, Neh 10:29, Deut 27:26.
.

 

[Frogster]

Hebrews 9:19 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you



Exodus 24:3 Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD and all the rules. And all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words that the LORD has spoken we will do.”


Leviticus 26:15
if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my rules, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant,


Josh 1:8 This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it.


All....THE BOOK, THAT OF GAL 3:10, ALL....

Deut 28:15 “But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you.



Deut 28:58 “If you are not careful to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, the Lord your God,


Neh 10:29 join with their brothers, their nobles, and enter into a curse and an oath to walk in God's Law that was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the Lord our Lord and his rules and his statutes.


Ex 24:7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.”

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

 

[GladiatorforGod]

This issue has so much discussion, because Sunday is has NO biblical basis for replacing Sabbath! And 4th Commandment is one of the laws that God wrote with His own finger, and yet man made tradition from the Pope of Rome has subordinated the Sabbath to Sunday!

 

[New_Wineskin]

What terminology do you think Pauls teachings to the Gentiles comes under if not Torah?

I think many Gentile Believers today baulk at the word 'Torah', because they have been taught a negative theology about Torah, and see it only as something that was heavy and burdonsome, but fail to see that Torah is ongoing, perfect and liberating.

Which is why I believe Jesus spoke about His 'yoke' being 'different'....but a 'yoke' nevertheless....

Matt 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30 “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

I have no negative theology concerning the Torah . I even consider it to have been a very good way for a people to live in their land if they attempted to do so . That doesn't mean that I will consider it to be necessary for salvation . And , I certainly will not try to do some of it while throwing other parts away as all of those do who attempt to promote it among Gentiles . For me , it would be all or nothing .

 

[New_Wineskin]

And in the midst of TorahIsAMust versus TorahIsUselessTOday - is there some kind of middle ground that anyone follows? I mean for intsance, knowing there IS good stuff in Torah. For instance, no its not healthy to eat ham and yes its good to have 1 day of rest per week. But at the same time, not picking it apart and trying to scrutinize Torah and apply every aspect to their lifestyle/culture. I hope Im making sense.

You make sense . However , that cannot be done . The Torah is a unit - all or nothing . If you disregard one item in the Torah , you are not following it .

 

[GladiatorforGod]

I have no negative theology concerning the Torah . I even consider it to have been a very good way for a people to live in their land if they attempted to do so . That doesn't mean that I will consider it to be necessary for salvation . And , I certainly will not try to do some of it while throwing other parts away as all of those do who attempt to promote it among Gentiles . For me , it would be all or nothing .

All or nothing, was what told the Rich Young Ruler in so many words. Its not that complicated. The Sabbath is the issue that cannot be avoid, because it is so clearly defined by God, and it is a Commandment of the highest moral basis, namely, defining a time of rest from labor and focusing on our relationship with God, and our fellow men, and yet Evangelicals, Catholics, and most Protestants ignore what God said to "Remember"!

 

[New_Wineskin]

All or nothing, was what told the Rich Young Ruler in so many words. Its not that complicated. The Sabbath is the issue that cannot be avoid, because it is so clearly defined by God, and it is a Commandment of the highest moral basis, namely, defining a time of rest from labor and focusing on our relationship with God, and our fellow men, and yet Evangelicals, Catholics, and most Protestants ignore what God said to "Remember"!

What others not only ignore but flat out spit on is that part of observing the Sabbath is putting to death their own for disobeying it .

I certainly do not ignore that the Lord told the Israelites to remember . But , I may as He didn't tell me anything about it .

 

[Zeek]

I have no negative theology concerning the Torah . I even consider it to have been a very good way for a people to live in their land if they attempted to do so . That doesn't mean that I will consider it to be necessary for salvation . And , I certainly will not try to do some of it while throwing other parts away as all of those do who attempt to promote it among Gentiles . For me , it would be all or nothing .

You totally misunderstand the emphasis of what I was attempting to say.

 

[Zeek]

in acts 15 circumcison meant become jewish, and that would bind the whole law anyway, gal 5:3, if snipped, keep the whole law.

there are more citations to prove the law was one, and one did it all.



Josh 1:8, Deut 28:15, Deut 28:58, Lev 26:15, James 2:10, Gal 3:10, Gal 5:3, Heb 9:19, Ex 24:3, Ex 24:7, Neh 10:29, Deut 27:26.
.

So did Jesus teach Torah?

 

[New_Wineskin]

You totally misunderstand the emphasis of what I was attempting to say.

You totally misunderstand my understanding of what you were attempting to say .

How useful these two posts were to the thread ...

 

[NorrinRadd]

Which of these shall we do away with then:

Any and all except for what is explicitly part of the New Covenant, i.e. the two-fold Commandment to Love God and Love One Another. Everything else -- special holy days (sabbaths, Sundays, whatever), clean vs. unclean foods, hair styles, clothing styles, a myriad of other minutiae -- all of it is useless excess baggage. Cast out the bondwoman and her son!

 

[Steve Petersen]

Any and all except for what is explicitly part of the New Covenant, i.e. the two-fold Commandment to Love God and Love One Another. Everything else -- special holy days (sabbaths, Sundays, whatever), clean vs. unclean foods, hair styles, clothing styles, a myriad of other minutiae -- all of it is useless excess baggage. Cast out the bondwoman and her son!

Which of those I posted are explicitly called out in the New Covenant?

 

[Frogster]

So did Jesus teach Torah?

what does this have to do with what i posted?

you can't keep torah, they were under torah, now no more torah.

no circumcision meant no judaism for the churches in Acts 15, and everywhere paul used Abraham, it was to ward off law, circumcision, judaism, nationalism, and race, and the old cov.

A yoke...Peter said it..

 

[Frogster]

So did Jesus teach Torah?

check out these verses...





Look at what Jesus, Paul, Peter and James, said about the law. The law that James and Peter, did not want to burden the church with, as Peter called it a YOKE, in Acts 15. All agreeing with Paul, who in Galatians 2:4, said we did not let them enslave you with law.



Jesus..

Rev 2:24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden.


James….same wordage as Jesus in Revelation.

Acts 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:


Peter..

Acts 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

Paul..

Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

James...don't trouble the church by putting the full Torah on them.


Acts 15:19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,