Torah debates

[Frogster]

Which of those I posted are explicitly called out in the New Covenant?

the feasts and sabbath were given to the jews..

these verses show who had it.





Psalm 147:19 He declares his word to Jacob, his statutes and rules to Israel.20 He has not dealt thus with any other nation; (gentiles mine) they do not know his rules. Praise the LORD!



2 Chronicles 2:4 Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God and dedicate it to him for the burning of incense of sweet spices before him, and for the regular arrangement of the showbread, and for burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths and the new moons and the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, as ordained forever for Israel.

John 2:13
The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

John 6:4
Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand.

John 11:55
Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and many went up from the country to Jerusalem before the Passover to purify themselves

Exodus 12:48
When a stranger sojourning with you wishes to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.


Romans 9:4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.

 

[Achilles6129]

The Torah is extremely important as it gives us deep insight into the nature of God. I have started threads on these forums before about the Torah that have "shocked" various "nominal" believers. People cannot reconcile the God of the Torah with the God they have heard of in church because the God they have heard of in church is a fake version of God.

Here are a few examples of what I'm talking about:

"And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not.
2 And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord." Lev. 10:1-2

What makes this passage all the more interesting is the fact that prior to their death, Nadab and Abihu were actually highly favored by God. They had received a revelation on Mt. Sinai along with Moses, Aaron, and seventy elders (Ex. 24). They were also next in line to be High Priest after Aaron. So they were basically the 3rd or 4th highest ranking individuals in Israel. In spite of all of this they die instantly for offering strange fire in front of God.

Here are a few other examples of what I'm talking about:

"9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." Lev. 21:9

"6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage." Deut. 13:6-10

The list could go on and on. The point is that the real God of Scripture is far different from what the "modern mind" thinks.

 

[Zeek]

Originally Posted by Zazal

So did Jesus teach Torah?
​

what does this have to do with what i posted?

I'm trying to establish the fact that Torah is on-going.

You are only in bondage to the Law of Moses if you attempt to be justified by the Law Moses...but in Jesus we are free from the Law, His blood freely justifies us.

you can't keep torah, they were under torah, now no more torah.

....The Torah of Moses has run it's course because its finishing line is Jesus...but Torah has not suddenly become redundant, and much of the heart of the writings within the Torah of Moses is relevant today.

no circumcision meant no judaism for the churches in Acts 15, and everywhere paul used Abraham, it was to ward off law, circumcision, judaism, nationalism, and race, and the old cov.

A yoke...Peter said it..

Jesus also taked about a yoke....putting on one...that was part of His torah/instruction to His disciples.

Peter was issuing the torah/instruction of the Holy Spirit, the Apostles, and the Elders...that Gentiles should not be bound by Mosaic Torah, nor the Covenant Torah for Jews. Before when a male Gentile joined the nation of Israel, they were circumcised...but this is not a covenant with Israel the nation, but with all who Believe, therefore circumcision is not necessary....and those that were troubling the Gentiles by insisting on it, did not fully grasp the significance of the Kingdom of G-d. (which is why Paul jokingly wished they would mutilate themselves in their most sensitive area)

 

[Zeek]

Zazal said....

So did Jesus teach Torah?

check out these verses...

I checked them all out...great verses.

Back to my question, a simple yes or no will suffice.

Did Jesus Teach Torah?

 

[Frogster]

I checked them all out...great verses.

Back to my question, a simple yes or no will suffice.

Did Jesus Teach Torah?

please post a verse or two...then I will be happy to reply.

well,, great verses, don't they show that one can"t keep the torah? What about the ALL., or break mycov in lev 26:15?

why were the jewish Christians living as gentiles in Antioch??

bottom line, you want to go where Jesus was elaborating on things in the law to jews, forgetting that the cross came. Why do you not elaborate on how peter, james, paul, said not to burden with the torah, after the cross?

so at best you just show that jesus was talking to jew before the cross.

 

[Frogster]

I'm trying to establish the fact that Torah is on-going.

You are only in bondage to the Law of Moses if you attempt to be justified by the Law Moses...but in Jesus we are free from the Law, His blood freely justifies us.



....The Torah of Moses has run it's course because its finishing line is Jesus...but Torah has not suddenly become redundant, and much of the heart of the writings within the Torah of Moses is relevant today.



Jesus also taked about a yoke....putting on one...that was part of His torah/instruction to His disciples.

Peter was issuing the torah/instruction of the Holy Spirit, the Apostles, and the Elders...that Gentiles should not be bound by Mosaic Torah, nor the Covenant Torah for Jews. Before when a male Gentile joined the nation of Israel, they were circumcised...but this is not a covenant with Israel the nation, but with all who Believe, therefore circumcision is not necessary....and those that were troubling the Gentiles by insisting on it, did not fully grasp the significance of the Kingdom of G-d. (which is why Paul jokingly wished they would mutilate themselves in their most sensitive area)

wait..uh uh..he was still saying no torah obligation, agreed?

if they were snipped, would they be bound to LIVE..LIVE each day, in their future, under torah?

indeed, we have no torah for sanctification also, don't we?

same in galatia, let me ask u this..

If they were snipped, would they be bound to Torah for the rest of their lives?
ahhhaa...we now move beyong justification, don't we?

were they at a crossroad for their future, live by faith, or law in 3:11-12?

indeed, we now move past the initial act of justification, don't we?

 

[AnonUser2013]

Im trying to avoid a full blown out debate of Keep Torah, Dont Worry about Torah. Im really wanting to know the underlying importance/motivation to YOU as to why this is so sensitive. I've seen Frogster try to battle to the bitter end (I dont think theres an end in sight dude) and I've seen MJs have just as many 'comebacks' but in the end, does it REALLY matter.

I mean can we all agree its probably NOT a salvational issue?

 

[Eliwho]

the torah was never given to gentiles.

This is totally false.
They were given all scripture as it is able to throughly furnish all believers to perform good works.
Why would gentiles be ashamed of their past behavior, if they never heard the law that convinced them they were sinners?


The only way to know you are being led by the Spirit is by checking you're behavior as it stacks up with scripture.(including torah)

 

[Steve Petersen]

Im trying to avoid a full blown out debate of Keep Torah, Dont Worry about Torah. Im really wanting to know the underlying importance/motivation to YOU as to why this is so sensitive. I've seen Frogster try to battle to the bitter end (I dont think theres an end in sight dude) and I've seen MJs have just as many 'comebacks' but in the end, does it REALLY matter.

I mean can we all agree its probably NOT a salvational issue?

Don't know any MJs who ever said it was.

 

[AnonUser2013]

That's a relief for sure! I just wanted to be certain though.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Im really wanting to know the underlying importance/motivation to YOU as to why this is so sensitive.

Those were presented in the thread , already .

I mean can we all agree its probably NOT a salvational issue?

No . If we agreed on that , those demanding the use of the Torah would not bring up the topic over and over again .

 

[New_Wineskin]

That's a relief for sure! I just wanted to be certain though.

MJ's do not say it but they are not involved in these debates . The MG's ( Gentile's in Messianic clothing ) are responsible .

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

AnonUser2013,

Confusion is with every denomination, belief, religions, you name it. It is every where. The topic was regarding the Torah topic and I used the Messianics as the example as there is much confusion within these groups.

Zazal,

You are correct, there is much confusion in the body of Christ as believers.

Moriah Ruth

 

[Frogster]

This is totally false.
They were given all scripture as it is able to throughly furnish all believers to perform good works.
Why would gentiles be ashamed of their past behavior, if they never heard the law that convinced them they were sinners?


The only way to know you are being led by the Spirit is by checking you're behavior as it stacks up with scripture.(including torah)

i postet text, it was not given to the gentiles, u can refute the text, if u so desire.

also, you did not quote the verse before, it talks about the writings that made wise unto salvation by faith, it was not about works, as far as the ALL SCRIPTURE GOES, if you read the full context..lookie here..

15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.


say, did we ever chat before on the forum, u seem familiar?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Those were presented in the thread , already .


No . If we agreed on that , those demanding the use of the Torah would not bring up the topic over and over again .

Name just ONE MJ on this forum who EVER said it was a salvation issue!

 

[New_Wineskin]

edited - person would not engage in a decent discussion

 

[Frogster]

Name just ONE MJ on this forum who EVER said it was a salvation issue!

sanctification by works, a works maintence program, in violation of gal 3:3, PERFECTION by human effort..

the judaizers we will say were saved, but they wanted to ADD LAW...

sanctification....

LIVE as a jew now?

live by faith, or law, that was the issue, for the most part.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Are you able to read ? I wrote that MJ's are not responsible . MG's are .

Then name ONE MG on this forum who EVER said it was a salvation issue!

 

[New_Wineskin]

edited - person would not engage in a decent discussion

 

[Steve Petersen]

Are you now admitting that you intentionally skipped that post ?

Dodge. Answer EITHER question if you can.

Perhaps you can link us to a post where any MG said it.