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Zeek
Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
Originally Posted by Zazal
So did Jesus teach Torah?
please post a verse or two...then I will be happy to reply.
Strange how such a simple straight-forward question can prove so difficult to get a reply to...any of the intructions that Jesus gives will be adequate, but so you can see it for yourself in black and white here are some. ( I already quoted Scripture, but it was all ignored in my first post...ho-hum
)Matt 10: 32Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
Matt 15: 10After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, Hear and understand. 11It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.
Matt 18: 1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, 3and said, Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; 6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
well,, great verses, don't they show that one can"t keep the torah? What about the ALL., or break mycov in lev 26:15?
Aren't we specifically looking at the Torah given to Moses at Sinai...the 'binding' of the Law onto the Israelites...rather than making the mistake of putting all torah/teaching into the same melting-pot?
There is an interesting dichotomy between the Torah which is spiritual, and the heart of man which is sinful...the Bible talks about the Law being perfect, its weakness was man....hence the need for the Torah to be engraved onto hearts of flesh.
The Jewish Believers understood in part the liberty that they had in Messiah...but the appearance of the big cheeses from Jerusalem put a religious fear in their hearts and made them act hypocritically...it is one of the things Paul hated the most, because he devoted so much time in making sure the right teaching on grace was abounding in the Body...he realised that above all other teachings, this religious spirit had the ability to make the gospel ineffective, and to annul the whole purpose of Jesus' atonement on the cross.
You assume wrongly...I am merely trying to demonstrate that Torah is on-going, and it is the Torah in the New Covenant that actually initiates faith in a Believer to understand their position in Messiah, and not get into the trap of being Law-pleasers rather than G-d pleasers.
No no no and thrice no.
At best I am trying to show that the word Torah and Law have been poorly used and applied throughout much Christian teaching, or do you want to suggest that the torah/instruction that Jesus gave to a largely Jewish audience, was not also effective for all Gentiles who believed on Him?
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Steve Petersen
Senior Veteran
Hmmm...it all gets a bit surreal at times. (another useful post
Could you direct me to the post where NW gave examples? I am not ignoring anything. I have been over NW posts on this thread and he/she gave no examples where MG said Torah was a salvation issue.
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Zeek
Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
I know you're not ignoring anything bro...and as far as I can see, no examples were forth-coming of either MG or MJ quotes.
I think we all miss a few posts to answer sometimes, most of it is pure oversight, or sheer volume of posts to sift through, especially when a topic gets red-hot.
Some people are a wee bit over-sensitive at times, and things become personal, which is a pity, ahhh but such is life.
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Steve Petersen
Senior Veteran
I know you're not ignoring anything bro...and as far as I can see, no examples were forth-coming of either MG or MJ quotes.
I think we all miss a few posts to answer sometimes, most of it is pure oversight, or sheer volume of posts to sift through, especially when a topic gets red-hot.
Some people are a wee bit over-sensitive at times, and things become personal, which is a pity, ahhh but such is life.
Nuff said.
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Do you believe Duet 5?This is totally false.
They were given all scripture as it is able to throughly furnish all believers to perform good works.
Why would gentiles be ashamed of their past behavior, if they never heard the law that convinced them they were sinners?
The only way to know you are being led by the Spirit is by checking you're behavior as it stacks up with scripture.(including torah)
Do you believe John 3 and 10?
Do you believe Romans 10?
What about the historical record of Acts in the unfolding of the NC?
Do you believe Gal 3, 4 and 5?
Do you believe Jer 31?
Do you believe Hosea 2?
Do you believe Eph 2?
Do you believe Col 2?
bugkiller
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New_Wineskin
Contributor
You now have enough information on these dabates . They are ongoing and repetitive .
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Please quote one any one verse in the NT requiring the observance of the 7th day sabbath by Jesus or an Apostle. Just one is all I ask.
bugkiller
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New_Wineskin
Contributor
Would it matter to Gentiles if Jesus taught the Torah to the Jews ?
If not a requirement for salvation , it wouldn't matter .
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PaladinValer
Traditional Orthodox Anglican
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Christianity teaches the Torah is dead; nailed to the cross and fulfilled in Christ.
Christ is my Passover Lamb and my righteousness. Let Jews keep the Torah; Christians are not obligated and are theologically opposed, to the point of historically declaring heresy, to the practice of following Torah.
Christ is my Passover Lamb and my righteousness. Let Jews keep the Torah; Christians are not obligated and are theologically opposed, to the point of historically declaring heresy, to the practice of following Torah.
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