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Torah debates

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AnonUser2013

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So it seems there is always a good Torah vs. Torahlessness debate going on in this section (including the Sabbath debate as well). I've seen both sides of the battleground and sympathize towards the logic of both. But logic wont answer the ever present debate of whether or not Torah (any part, all parts, some parts) is for today. So just how important to you is this matter personally? Not tearing anyone down, just getting a feel for the why behind the big debate.
 

New_Wineskin

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So it seems there is always a good Torah vs. Torahlessness debate going on in this section (including the Sabbath debate as well). I've seen both sides of the battleground and sympathize towards the logic of both. But logic wont answer the ever present debate of whether or not Torah (any part, all parts, some parts) is for today. So just how important to you is this matter personally? Not tearing anyone down, just getting a feel for the why behind the big debate.
Starting another thread on it will not end it . Every thread has an explanation by both sides as to the why for the debate .
 
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NorrinRadd

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So it seems there is always a good Torah vs. Torahlessness debate going on in this section (including the Sabbath debate as well). I've seen both sides of the battleground and sympathize towards the logic of both. But logic wont answer the ever present debate of whether or not Torah (any part, all parts, some parts) is for today. So just how important to you is this matter personally? Not tearing anyone down, just getting a feel for the why behind the big debate.

I don't necessarily get deeply into every "Torah" or "Law" discussion that comes along, but OTOH I often do find reason to address the topic in discussions not explicitly devoted to it. It's a pretty foundational point to me that Xians are under a NEW Covenant of grace, faith, and Spirit, not the Obsolete Covenant of Law, works, and flesh, and that for us only the "royal" law is still in effect.
 
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Zeek

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Is a Christian one who follows the Torah?

Is a Christian one who doesn't follow the Torah?

Just as Moses was given Torah on Mt Sinai...so Jesus gave Torah on a hillside in Galilee. Torah/instruction has never stopped, it has just changed and certain aspects have undergone a modification.

The Torah of Moses was given because of sin, but it was in place for a set period, because its fulfillment was in Messiah...many things still apply, but its overall function has run its course...to guide, lead and protect the Jewish nation and present them before their Messiah.

I like what football5680 touched upon...Jesus never negated Torah, He taught it more perfectly and revealed some of its core purposes, in particular:

John 5: 39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.......
46 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. 47 “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

So a Christian is most definately one who follows Torah and is obedient from the heart...we just have to get rid of the picture we have of only Torah being a set of rigid rules written on stone tablets and only applicable to the Jewish people.

John 14:15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

If we try using the word Torah as a substitute for 'commandments' and it might give people a closer understanding of Torah.
 
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AnonUser2013

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And in the midst of TorahIsAMust versus TorahIsUselessTOday - is there some kind of middle ground that anyone follows? I mean for intsance, knowing there IS good stuff in Torah. For instance, no its not healthy to eat ham and yes its good to have 1 day of rest per week. But at the same time, not picking it apart and trying to scrutinize Torah and apply every aspect to their lifestyle/culture. I hope Im making sense.
 
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Moriah Ruth 777

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I have been around people who are into Messianic teachings and have read many forums regarding the issue. What I find is lot of confusion, strife and false teachings that have nothing to do with the word of God. One side tells you that it is biblical, the other side tells you it is not. Who do you believe? One side disagrees with another, one group believes that Jesus is God while the other side doesn't believe He is God.

Many of these groups twist scripture to suit their own thinking or belief sytem. When I had started to read and get involved in some of the Messianic Forums it seemed like everyone had soemthing they wanted to share. I had to stop because I was getting confused. God is not the author of confusion. The enemy Satan is. He is very good at deceiving many.

Some groups get into heated arguements. They can't discuss without bashing one another. Where is God's love in that?

Moriah Ruth
 
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AnonUser2013

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What I find is lot of confusion, strife and false teachings that have nothing to do with the word of God.
When I had started to read and get involved in some of the Messianic Forums it seemed like everyone had soemthing they wanted to share. I had to stop because I was getting confused. God is not the author of confusion. The enemy Satan is. He is very good at deceiving many.

Some groups get into heated arguements. They can't discuss without bashing one another. Where is God's love in that?

Moriah Ruth

I've witnessed this in the messianic community. Within one city alone, there was like 3-5 messianic congregations but instead of them getting along, they were all divided and not getting along. Very sad. I'm not bashing individual messianics or their beliefs, Im sure there are very sincere MJs just like there are pentecostals baptists or methodists.

But the other thing you mentioned was CONFUSION. Yep... But are you saying this confusion doesnt exist among other groups?
 
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Girder of Loins

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And in the midst of TorahIsAMust versus TorahIsUselessTOday - is there some kind of middle ground that anyone follows? I mean for intsance, knowing there IS good stuff in Torah. For instance, no its not healthy to eat ham and yes its good to have 1 day of rest per week. But at the same time, not picking it apart and trying to scrutinize Torah and apply every aspect to their lifestyle/culture. I hope Im making sense.

Oh yes. The Torah is a great place to start if you're wanting to grow deeper into God. It is God's will, is it not? Even if it no longer applies to us for salvation, learning about God throughout time and learning how He never changes is very important to going deeper into His love. I love studying the Torah, and seeing how 1) it was taught by Christ, and 2) how it can apply to me in today's world.
 
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Frogster

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How do you know this or can back it up?

In gal 2 it's recorded that peter was living as a gentile in antioch, it was ongoing he was LIVING, he then feared the circumcision, and withdrew, and started living as a jew again, then barnabas and the rest of the jews did the same thing.

for them to follow in the same pattern and footsteps as peter, they had to be living as gentiles also, before thier turncoating back to judaism. They, the rest of the jews, and Barnabas did what peter did. They were all living as gentile prior to the circumcision visitors, who intimidated peter.

12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”




besides, Paul said he became as a gentile right in gal 4:12. How could paul and barnabas possibly live as jews, around the gentile converts?
 
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Frogster

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Oh yes. The Torah is a great place to start if you're wanting to grow deeper into God. It is God's will, is it not? Even if it no longer applies to us for salvation, learning about God throughout time and learning how He never changes is very important to going deeper into His love. I love studying the Torah, and seeing how 1) it was taught by Christ, and 2) how it can apply to me in today's world.

the just shall live by faith, not law, it's said 3 times in the NT. the law is not of faith, gal 3;12.
 
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Girder of Loins

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the just shall live by faith, not law, it's said 3 times in the NT. the law is not of faith, gal 3;12.

I understand that, and that is why I said,"Even if it no longer applies to us for salvation." BUT, isn;t understanding God through time beneficial to us? To fully understand where a person is today, you have to know where they've been.
 
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