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You've gone past my point -- so lets say they lust after women in a regular bikini... SO JUST TACK ON GOING TOPLESS and make it even MORE immodest?Are men not attracted to seeing a woman in a bikini? Are men not attracted to seeing women in a one piece?
What are you advocating for, woman swimming in a sweat suit, to avoid the possible lust factor by a man?
and can you honestly say that seeing that wouldn't sexually arouse you or cause you to focus on a female's body - in a physical, sexual way?Are men not attracted to seeing a woman in a bikini? Are men not attracted to seeing women in a one piece?
What are you advocating for, woman swimming in a sweat suit, to avoid the possible lust factor by a man?
basically, I'm being told to believe this:
Men won't be sexually aroused or interested in women who they see at the beach without tops and a little bikini bottom walking around.
Ok, that makes sense, I also think it fits God's principle of Modesty for Godly women.
Thanks for helping me see the light folks!
You've gone past my point -- so lets say they lust after women in a regular bikini... SO JUST TACK ON GOING TOPLESS and make it even MORE immodest?
The point being, it leaves even LESS to the imagination than a regular 2 piece bikini. [The beach being one of the main locations for women going topless].
and can you honestly say that seeing that wouldn't sexually arouse you or cause you to focus on a female's body - in a physical, sexual way?
This is what we've been trying to say, but no one seems to want to believe us. "Leaving little to the imagination" is good when "the imagination" is what's causing it to be so tantalizing in the first place.If seeing female breasts becomes the everyday norm, then a female chest won't be any more alluring to men then a male chest is to women. This has been shown in cultures where toplessness is the norm.
Will some men still look at a particularly attractive topless women? Yes, of course. Do some some women now look at particularly attractive topless men? Yes, of course. Do people of either sex check out attractive members of the opposite sex even when they are fully clothed? Yes, of course.
And, once again, the Scripture that you quoted in support of modesty for women deals with wearing too much adornment.
If seeing female breasts becomes the everyday norm, then a female chest won't be any more alluring to men then a male chest is to women. This has been shown in cultures where toplessness is the norm.
Will some men still look at a particularly attractive topless women? Yes, of course. Do some some women now look at particularly attractive topless men? Yes, of course. Do people of either sex check out attractive members of the opposite sex even when they are fully clothed? Yes, of course.
And, once again, the Scripture that you quoted in support of modesty for women deals with wearing too much adornment.
Did Adam and Eve realize they were naked ?
Yes.
Did God cover them?
Yes, but there in nothing in Scripture indicating that Eve's breasts were covered. Indeed, some versions of Scripture indicate that only their loins were covered.
Why is that breasts are ok to expose and not sexual organs?
Because the breasts are not primary sexual organs. The following is from Wikipedia:
"A sex organ, or primary sexual characteristic, as narrowly defined, is any of the anatomical parts of the body which are involved in sexual reproduction and constitute the reproductive system in a complex organism; in mammals, these are:
Female: Bartholin's glands, cervix, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], Fallopian tubes, labia, ovaries, Skene's gland, uterus, vagina, vulva
Male: Cowper's glands, epididymis, penis, prepuce, prostate, scrotum, seminal vesicles, testicles."
If a man has to look at breasts and deal with it, lets just go all the way and expose the vagina as well.
No, becaue the vagina is a prisary sexual organ.
Why would we have to stop where YOU determine the line of moral decency is?
Right back at you--why should YOU make the determination?
You dont think its very easy to understand the reason a 19 year old boy would be ok with women walking around topless ?
And if it became commonplace, 19-year-olds generally wouldn't care.
Get back with me in 20 years and lets see how the next couple decades have gone and how you feel then.
I'm 46, and I think that women should have the same rights as do men.
Oh I see, will that work for a females genitals too?If seeing female breasts becomes the everyday norm, then a female chest won't be any more alluring to men then a male chest is to women. This has been shown in cultures where toplessness is the norm.
Will some men still look at a particularly attractive topless women? Yes, of course. Do some some women now look at particularly attractive topless men? Yes, of course. Do people of either sex check out attractive members of the opposite sex even when they are fully clothed? Yes, of course.
And, once again, the Scripture that you quoted in support of modesty for women deals with wearing too much adornment.
Oh I see, will that work for a females genitals too?
That isn't what is under discussion here--you did actually read the OP, didn't you?
This is YOUR theory - and it is NOT proven whatsoever.
Again--this has been said before--in many where women regularly go topless the breasts are notregarded sexually.
Also, so we just have people lust and sin till they "get it out of their systems once seeing more every day"? So sin for awhile, you'll eventually not care about it. That's like saying, "hey, if you get drunk enough, and enough times, eventually you'll get sick of getting drunk". Just indulge in your lust or habit (even tho it's sinful), till you're bored with it.
But Scripture doesn't say that a woman should expose her breasts. Indeed, as I said before, the Ethiopean Church is one of the oldest in Christendom and women there routinely go topless.
This is how cultures are dulled to conscience - this is how street drugs and prostitution have been common activity in Amsterdam. It's hardly Christian is it? Some theory.
That isn't what we are discusing here. Please stay on topic.
What does GOD say to do with temptation?
FLEE IT, not indulge till you become dulled to it.
Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.(we flee lusts, not pursue them - adding to temptation)
Romans 12:2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
The scripture you qouted has nothing to do with whether women should have the right to go topless.
This is nothign more than being told to live like the World around me and forget God's principles...sometimes I truly wonder
No one is suggesting that we forget God's principles.
Yes, but by then you will have grown up, and will act so much like us that it would frighten you if you could see it now, or else you will be one of those pathetic old men who still try to act like teenagers for their whole lives.Because we actually have a bit of familiarity with psychology.
Fact of the matter is, though, that my generation is quite likely to see things this way, whereas your generation will hold fast. Eventually, my generation will be the major political/social force in America (which will be only another decade or so). So on your way into retirement, we'll start seeing more and more of these things talked about.
And in that, I find comfort.
This is a false generalization you're using - it's not what we have said or advocated.I didn't realize it was a sin to simply see another human naked.
Yes, and this type of occurrence is what I call dulling our conscience and being desentized to worldly things that we aren't supposed to be getting used to or build apathy towards.As I said, I've seen enough art and photography that I don't look twice at a naked guy (or a girl, for that matter). It's just the human body, so who cares?
You answer to GOD not me or anyone else. One day you will stand before Him all by your lonesome to give account of your life and conduct and salvation/ or lack thereof. My issue is, this isn't the actual source of what's going on spiritually; THIS IS 1 SYMPTOM/SIDE EFFECT of the overall spiritual condition that is the much larger issue.Guess I'm a horrible sinner, then. Personally, I'd rather shrug and move on than get all worked up and furious over it.
I didn't see this or I would of answered it - I met a lady at a function I was at who's husband was a gynocologist. In chatting with a group of us, she mentioned that for some reason, he just didn't have sexual issues/turn on's w/ those women, but had a healthy sexual appetite w/ his wife.And no one answered my question about male gynecologists. They see naked women every day, and they put their hands all over them too. Are they sinning? Would I be sinning by seeing a male gynecologist? Do you think they struggle with lust, or do they just not care because they see a million vaginas and sets of boobs a day?
Women in Demark have gained the right to go topless in public pools.
Why should this be an issue? Shouldn't women have the right to go topless anywhere that men can go topless?
Whatever the reason, the word "uptight" is a bit unfair.The Europeans are not as uptight about nudity and other matters. I think it's because the Puritans left Europe and they influenced America with their version of "morality".
Whatever the reason, the word "uptight" is a bit unfair.
I'm not "uptight", I'm obeying God in modesty - it's GOD who clothed Adam & Eve for a reason.
I can easily turn your statement around to say something like, "The Europeans are not as spiritually in tune with God due to their open nudity".
lol
And this is your view. You think that men being tempted is universal if breasts are shown. It isn't. Men are tempted in any regard. If you want to stop female forms from turning men on, then you have to cover women in burkas. And even then you can be sure men will still 'feel the sap rising' so to speak.Oh I see, will that work for a females genitals too?
This is YOUR theory - and it is NOT proven whatsoever.
Also, so we just have people lust and sin till they "get it out of their systems once seeing more every day"?
So sin for awhile, you'll eventually not care about it.
That's like saying, "hey, if you get drunk enough, and enough times, eventually you'll get sick of getting drunk".
Just indulge in your lust or habit (even tho it's sinful), till you're bored with it.
This is how cultures are dulled to conscience - this is how street drugs and prostitution have been common activity in Amsterdam.
It's hardly Christian is it? Some theory.
What does GOD say to do with temptation?
FLEE IT, not indulge till you become dulled to it.
2 Timothy 2:22
Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
(we flee lusts, not pursue them - adding to temptation)
Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
This is nothign more than being told to live like the World around me and forget God's principles...
sometimes I truly wonder -----------------
No, this is NOT an issue of "that's your opinion, but mine is different as a Christian".And this is your view. You think that men being tempted is universal if breasts are shown. It isn't. Men are tempted in any regard. If you want to stop female forms from turning men on, then you have to cover women in burkas. And even then you can be sure men will still 'feel the sap rising' so to speak.
It's a human trait. What is or isn't a turn on is more cultural than anything else. What is or isn't a norm is also cultural.
Here in Scandinavia people go sunbathing in the middle of the city with hardly any clothes on. Men and women. Most Scandinavian women are very beautiful by western standards. Tall, blonde, large breasts, long legs.... But how they look isn't a factor. Not a large one anyway. Women aged in their 60s also take off most of their clothes and sunbathe publicly. Even if they are overweight, clear evidence of childbearing and more.
It's common. It's normal. And Norwegian men aren't going nuts over it. Sure, during spring everyone gets a little more... Friendly, but that's because of the sun, heat and days off. It's natural.
Let's say it this way, it may not be 'clean' for you. Or for men in your immediate vicinity. But does that mean we have to cover up because you find it offensive that we don't?
If so, should we then cover our women up like Muslim women do? Because it can be/is seen as offensive whenever a woman wears anything less than a normal house's supply of curtains?
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