Top Three

Dave L said:

It is not a historic doctrine. But came about in the 1800s. The top dogs are those who spent considerable time developing the error.

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Again, I'm not going to argue it with you, the timing, the precedence, or your imaginary 'top dogs'.

Dave L said:

The NT does not mention a pre-trib rapture. We need to interpret the OT from the NT and not the other way around.

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Yet there many scriptures in the NT that can't be understood without referring to the OT.

Nowhere does the Bible present an unequivocally clear understanding of the "end times". All existing hypotheses are cobbled together using disparate sources and reasonings. Moreover, these debates have not just led to disputes in the Christian community but have caused much spiritual, psychological, emotional and even physical harm. I take a totally skeptical position. In fact I believe that the end times focus of the early church may have been an unfortunate mistake

JackRT said:

Nowhere does the Bible present an unequivocally clear understanding of the "end times". All existing hypotheses are cobbled together using disparate sources and reasonings.

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The unfortunate mistake is to ignore what the Lord has plainly told us thru His prophets; will happen.
2 Peter 1:19 says we should read the message of the prophets, they will illuminate our minds.

I posted a Bible based list of forthcoming events, #20. Do you reject them?
We are told we should not be in the dark about the end times. 1 Thess 5:4

keras said:

The unfortunate mistake is to ignore what the Lord has plainly told us thru His prophets; will happen.
2 Peter 1:19 says we should read the message of the prophets, they will illuminate our minds.

I posted a Bible based list of forthcoming events, #20. Do you reject them?
We are told we should not be in the dark about the end times. 1 Thess 5:4

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I don't reject or accept them but I remain skeptical. Skepticism is like an inoculation against being taken in.

JM said:

What are the top three reasons you hold to the eschatological position you have now? If you feel up to it please state your position (example Premil, Pretrib, Futurist, etc) This is open to all, to anyone willing to share their theological reflections, thanks in advance.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

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1) It is scriptural.
2) It is not confusing.
3) It is Finished.

I hold the premil, pretrib position:

#1) An imminent pre-wrather (Sam Smith) actually showed me in Matthew 24 how the rapture is actually in the text by examining the background of 'as the days of Noah'.
#2) I was originally taught pre-trib by Pastor John MacArthur
#3) The scriptures appear to make much more sense that Israel as a nation continues to this present day.

My eschatology is mostly agnostic. I hold to a few bits and pieces, based on what I'm sure of, but I'm neither pre- nor post- millennial, pre- nor post- tribulation, etc. The problem is not that I haven't studied the matter. The problem is that I started early spent a lot of time on it, and I have held most of the common positions at one point in my life or the other. All of them appear to have valid reasoning, based on scripture, and all of them have fatal flaws, as far as I can tell. My position can be generally summed up as this: bad times are coming, and Christ will return to judge the living and the dead.

Revelation 10:1 mentions an angel with a rainbow above his head. The rainbow is a symbol of God's promise not to flood the earth, and the angel stands with one foot in the water and another on the land. This means that, were it not for the promise, God would flood the earth at this time. This should give us some idea of how bad things will get. Following this angel we get the utterances of the seven thunders, which are most certainly a malediction.

In the following chapter, we get the two witnesses, who in Revelation 11:6 prevent rain and cause a variety of plagues. I notice how, by preventing rain, they effectively bring an end to rainbows. The earth still isn't flooded, but destruction comes upon it nonetheless.

JM said:

What are the top three reasons you hold to the eschatological position you have now? If you feel up to it please state your position (example Premil, Pretrib, Futurist, etc) This is open to all, to anyone willing to share their theological reflections, thanks in advance.
Yours in the Lord,
jm

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Jonaitis said:

Amillennialism - although I am still learning and somewhat lean toward Postmillennialism.

It is actually found on the pages of Holy Writ. It is simple, harmonizes with the rest of biblical history and is compatible with covenant theology. I suppose that was more than three.

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Maria Billingsley said:

1) It is scriptural.
2) It is not confusing.
3) It is Finished.

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Agree.......I will add 3 more reasons to that..

I am Preterist, Amill......

Orthodox preterism/amillenialism
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The top three reasons

1 Because Jesus said so to the 1st century Jews
2 Jesus never lied to them
3 Jesus wasn't a false prophet to them

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted
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The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ;...............

Luke 19:
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee,
and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee and shall be encompassing Thee,
and pressing Thee from-every-side.
44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,
and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee,
stead which not Thou knew the season of the visitation<1984> of Thee".

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18
8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows,
death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>,
that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.

19 and they cast dust upon their heads, and cried<2896>, lamenting<2799>, weeping and mourning<3996>, saying,
"Woe! woe! the great City! in which are rich all those having ships<4143> in the sea, out of Her preciousness<5094>,
for to one hour was She was desolated<2049>.
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Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive
THE ROMAN-JEWISH WAR

Dave L said: ↑
It is not a historic doctrine. But came about in the 1800s. The top dogs are those who spent considerable time developing the error.

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SeventyOne said:

Again, I'm not going to argue it with you, the timing, the precedence, or your imaginary 'top dogs'.

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Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

Dave L said:

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.

Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.

The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.

It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack. (Gary DeMar; “That’s Not in the Bible”)

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these?

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

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The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Rapture refuted
Rapture, Premillennialism & Dispensationalism Refuted!


See: "Replacement theology" proven from the Bible!

See: The Origin of Rapture Doctrine in 1830 AD (Inventor: John Darby)

See: 50 ways Pre-millennialism contradicts the Bible
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The lens you see scripture through will determine your eschatology. There are many lenses to choose from and the one I believe correct is the literal sense of what is said unless it is clearly speaking symbolically. With this lens those who study the scriptures by themselves come largely to the same point of view that can actually set a timeline of events or themes many of them posted by Karas. Current events are leading to the very specifics that prophecy outlines for the chain reaction. One of the key elements is the return of the daily sacrifices. This would be necessary for the abomination of desolation to occur in. In 2 Thes the man of sin is revealed in the Temple claiming to be god and creating lying signs and wonders and he is given power by Satan. He is destroyed at the brightness of the LORD's coming which is the same fate that the beast in Rev has so it would seem they are one in the same. The book of Zech chapter 14 gives a clear picture of the day the LORD comes with His saints and is king over all the earth. It also shows life on earth after the LORD is king continuing as the nations which are left must now come and keep the feast of Tabernacles or they will get no rain.
There is the prophecy in LUKE 1 that Jesus mission is laid out
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

If you lay it all out there are hundreds of prophecies about Israel being saved and being established with a before the 2nd coming and after that is great evidence that the 2nd coming brings on the millennium as Jesus is to take the throne of David. in Zech 9
9 “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your King is coming to you;
He is just and having salvation,
Lowly and riding on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.
10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim
And the horse from Jerusalem;
The battle bow shall be cut off.
He shall speak peace to the nations;
His dominion shall be ‘from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth. Now in the new Jerusalem there is no more sea so this is talking of Jesus having this dominion on this earth.

Lastly if Jesus were king now and there is no millennium then Satan would have to be bound now. Any honest reflection at the powers and principalities over the last 2000 years makes this idea ludicrous. Jesus will rule with a rod of Iron.
Isiaah 9 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. Davids throne is on earth. The world when Chirst is king will be glorious.

Hosea 3 links the return of teh kingdom with the return of the sacrifice.
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

The kingdom of heaven starts after the 1000 years on earth are finished. Even the way Satan is destroyed is completely different at the 2nd coming than it is at the end of the 1000 years. These are two separate events. Only those born again have their names written in the lamb's book of life. And Jesus did preach the kingdom of heaven as well but not to the elimination of all other Bible prophecy. It is most paramount to be a citizen of heaven through faith. Also the LORD is going to keep every prophecy written. The two ideas of the kingdom on earth and then a heavenly eternal state are not mutually exclusive.

Tree of Life said:

Amil

1. It coheres with what all of Scripture says about the final days (in which we currently live).
2. It fits with the figurative language of Revelation.
3. Premil and postmil suffer from fatal problems.

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Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

Amillennialism: "no millennium", rejects the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year-long, physical reign on the earth. The amillennial viewpoint holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age.
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The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology

Amillennialism Study Archive

Amillennialism Study Archive
It follows a grammatical-historical-literal interpretation of the Scriptures which includes the allegorical interpretations.

Amillennialism – Wiki | A Defense of (Reformed) Amillennialism | Amillennialism: Intoduction and the Book of Revelation | amillennialism and premillennialism | Google Books | Premillennialism vs Amillennialism

I'm a believer in a pre trib secret rapture of the church - a post trib physical return of the Lord to earth - and a literal millennial reign of Christ on earth.

I've studied all of the major systems and this one seems the most scriptural and plausible.

Time will tell if I've got it right.

LittleLambofJesus said:

The top three reasons

1 Because Jesus said so to the 1st century Jews
2 Jesus never lied to them
3 Jesus wasn't a false prophet to them

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Jesus did prophesy, the same as the ancient prophets did.
They got a hard time from the people of their day, as what they said never happened then.
Ezekiel 12:27 The Israelites say; the visions the prophets see are not to be fulfilled for many years, they are for a time far off.
Mostly still not happened, but will they never happen? If they won't, then our Bibles are unreliable.

I totally reject the preterist notion of past fulfilment, that idea simply doesn't wash as the prophesies for the end times bear no relation to what happened in the past.

His student said:

I'm a believer in a pre trib secret rapture of the church - a post trib physical return of the Lord to earth - and a literal millennial reign of Christ on earth.

I've studied all of the major systems and this one seems the most scriptural and plausible.

Time will tell if I've got it right.

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But Jesus said that no one goes to heaven, except for the One who came from there. John 3:13

JM said:

What are the top three reasons you hold to the eschatological position you have now? If you feel up to it please state your position (example Premil, Pretrib, Futurist, etc) This is open to all, to anyone willing to share their theological reflections, thanks in advance.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

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No position, for these reasons:

• Everyone has an opinion on this and all say scripture teaches their position but there are many different opinions
• Scripture talks about an end to this world's way of doing things and a last judgement but doesn't set any dates
• I think that using Daniel & Revelation to get numbers and convert "a day for a year" is nonsense

keras said:

But Jesus said that no one goes to heaven, except for the One who came from there. John 3:13

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That implies that all who are "in Christ" go to heaven because they are in Christ who is the one who came from there.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists


The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Rapture refuted
Rapture, Premillennialism & Dispensationalism Refuted!


See: "Replacement theology" proven from the Bible!

See: The Origin of Rapture Doctrine in 1830 AD (Inventor: John Darby)

See: 50 ways Pre-millennialism contradicts the Bible
===============================

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Is there a real point to this?

JM said:

What are the top three reasons you hold to the eschatological position you have now? If you feel up to it please state your position (example Premil, Pretrib, Futurist, etc) This is open to all, to anyone willing to share their theological reflections, thanks in advance.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

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Partial preterism - end of the age, kingdom of God and the Son of man came in 70 AD

1) Because Jesus said that "this" generation will receive all the wrath
2) Because Jesus said that his apostles will not finish cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes
3) Because Jesus said that "there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom"