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Top Ten Problems with Darwinian Evolution

Skaloop

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But that can't be right, because Noah sent out a raven, too. So, I mean...are ravens and doves separate kinds? Did doves come from ravens while they were on the Ark, or vice versa?

I totally forgot about the raven! If Noah had both the raven kind and the dove kind, that kinda blows EternalDragon's hypothesis out of the water.

Also, there's got to be a Poe or a "nevermore" joke in there somewhere. But I can't come up with a good one right now...
 
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Subduction Zone

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And frogs turn into princes.

I can't believe people actually believe that nonsense. Unless you are joking. It has to be a joke, right?


As others have pointed out a lame joke and even worse you are wrong. No frogs cannot turn into princes, nor can their offspring. They are in a different clade than we are. Don't you understand clades yet? This is one of the simplest ideas of evolution. Your Bible even describes it. Animals will bear after their kind. Your descendants will all be in the same clade.

So the justice system can observe the crime?

The justice system observes evidence that resulted from a crime. Just as we observe the evidence that resulted from evolution. It is the same evidence. If we are wrong then the police are wrong.


Those are all testable effects that happen in the present. Or results that can be observed in the present.

The same applies to the tests as used for evolution. Why do you think there is any difference?

Oh yes, it would upset your false belief in the myths of Genesis. Please note, evolution only debunks Genesis, it does not debunk the whole Bible nor does it even try to. It only debunks Genesis since it is so obviously wrong.
 
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bhsmte

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And frogs turn into princes.

I can't believe people actually believe that nonsense. Unless you are joking. It has to be a joke, right?



So the justice system can observe the crime?



Those are all testable effects that happen in the present. Or results that can be observed in the present.

You know, it is quite curious that the christian does not get hung up on not observing (seeing) God and claiming he exists, but when it comes to things like forensic evidence in a murder case, they claim it isn't observable.
 
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lasthero

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The more I think about it, the less sense 'kinds' makes, especially the way it's constantly 'defined'.

You keep giving examples when asked for a definition, but that's counter-intuitive. If a kid asked you to define a fruit, you wouldn't say 'apples are fruits, bananas are fruits, pears are fruits' and leave it at that. That would tell the kid nothing. The kid has no idea what makes those things fruits and why something like, say, cabbage, not a fruit. What is it based on? Color? Size? Would a tomato be a fruit? He could guess all day long, but he'll never figure it out.

And that's exactly what all this 'kind' stuff is - guessing. EternalDragon has no idea what it actually is. JT doesn't either. If they did, they would define it. Harp about taxonomic classifications all you like, but they actually do have definitions. Until you actually sit down and define 'kind' in some meaningful, consistent way, it's utterly useless, and the claim that 'one kind has never turned into another kind' is just a smokescreen - how can you pretend to say that's never happened when you don't even know what a kind is to begin with?
 
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TheBeardedDude

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Ignoring the fact that you just copied and pasted this, I'll have a stab at it for as long as I can stomach


1. Lack of a viable mechanism for producing high levels of complex and specified information. Related to this are problems with the Darwinian mechanism producing irreducibly complex features, and the problems of non-functional or deleterious intermediate stages. (For details see: "The NCSE, Judge Jones, and Bluffs About the Origin of New Functional Genetic Information," "Do Car Engines Run on Lugnuts? A Response to Ken Miller & Judge Jones's Straw Tests of Irreducible Complexity for the Bacterial Flagellum," "Opening Darwin's Black Box," or "Can Random Mutations Create New Complex Features? A Response to TalkOrigins");

Patently false. This would quite literally be the very first thing descirbed by Darwin...we call that "Natural Selection" and he also proposed "Sexual Selection" and you hit on another one later when we get to Gould and Eldredge and "Punctuated Equilibrium."

2. The failure of the fossil record to provide support for Darwinian evolution. (For details, see "Punctuated Equilibrium and Patterns from the Fossil Record" or "Intelligent Design Has Scientific Merit in Paleontology");

Also patently false. Both gradualism and punctuated equilibrium are observed in the fossil record (even some ideas as to "Punctuated Gradualism" have popped up but are more or less just occurences of one then the other occurring).

Examples of gradualism include: horses, whales, fish-reptile, etc
Examples of punctuated equlibrium include: trilobites, brachiopods, molluscs, etc (quite a few in each category, but the gradualism examples are more well known so I was more specific)

3. The failure of molecular biology to provide evidence for a grand "tree of life." (For details, see: "A Primer on the Tree of Life");

What? I don't understand that at all. We have phylogenies showing common ancestry and descent, and they are pretty clearly in agreement with evolution.

4. Natural selection is an extremely inefficient method of spreading traits in populations unless a trait has an extremely high selection coefficient;

Not so. Look at something like any one of the genetic diseases that plague humans. Why do they still exist? Why are they not selected out of the population entirely? (even though they are highly detrimental to survival). They persist because genetics can mask carriers of the trait, who pass it on unknowingly. Meaning that in any given population that is very large, selecting out a trait is mathematically impossible (limit theory)

5. The problem that convergent evolution appears rampant -- at both the genetic and morphological levels, even though under Darwinian theory this is highly unlikely. (For details, see "Convergent Genetic Evolution: 'Surprising' Under Unguided Evolution, Expected Under Intelligent Design" and "Dolphins and Porpoises and...Bats? Oh My! Evolution's Convergence Problem");

What? I am baffled again. If natural selection is a viable theory, then different organisms living in similar envrionments, should converge on the same solution to a problem. AKA, convergent evolution. I have no idea how you think convergent evolution would go against evolution.

6. The failure of chemistry to explain the origin of the genetic code. (For details, see "The origin of life remains a mystery" or "Problems with the Natural Chemical 'Origin of Life'");

A "god of the gaps" argument? And we actually have explanations for that too, you just reject them.

7. The failure of developmental biology to explain why vertebrate embryos diverge from the beginning of development. (For details, see: "Evolving views of embryology," "A Reply to Carl Zimmer on Embryology and Developmental Biology," "Current Textbooks Misuse Embryology to Argue for Evolution");

They don't. And we understand through things like HoX genes, how, when, and where organisms in differing phyla differ in their development.

In any event, this sounds like a criticism of "Ontogeny recapitulates Phylogeny", which we know to be false in science. Aka, you're trying to beat a dead horse.

8. The failure of neo-Darwinian evolution to explain the biogeographical distribution of many species. (For details, see "Sea Monkey Hypotheses Refute the NCSE's Biogeography Objections to Explore Evolution" or "Sea Monkeys Are the Tip of the Iceberg: More Biogeographical Conundrums for Neo-Darwinism");

Geology does a great job of explaining that mate. Continents shift as they ride upon the lithospheric plates that move across the surface of the Earth. Ever wonder why Africa and South America look like puzzle pieces that should fit together? It's because they did during the Mesozoic!

9. A long history of inaccurate predictions inspired by neo-Darwinism regarding vestigial organs or so-called "junk" DNA. (For details, ] see: "Intelligent Design and the Death of the 'Junk-DNA' Neo-Darwinian Paradigm," "The Latest Proof of Evolution: The Appendix Has No Important Function," or "Does Darrel Falk's Junk DNA Argument for Common Descent Commit 'One of the Biggest Mistakes in the History of Molecular Biology'?);

A long list of inaccurate predictions? You mean, hypotheses? Ergo, failed hypotheses? Of course! They can't all be right, now can they?

And we have explanations for vestigal organs and junk DNA. (like the hind limbs on a whale)

10. Humans show many behavioral and cognitive traits and abilities that offer no apparent survival advantage (e.g. music, art, religion, ability to ponder the nature of the universe).
- See more at: What Are the Top Ten Problems with Darwinian Evolution? - Evolution News & Views


Perception of our future selves is a extremely benefical trait (and that is the gist of what you are getting at with the ability for forethought).

As to music and art, a study recently found that despite differing countries and cultures, most people converge on the same idea of the perfect piece of art. A landscape of a grassy plain with a low-branching tree in the background and a source of water. Sound like our ancestral savannas much?
 
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Loudmouth

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Wrong. Apparently you have misconceptions of what electric current is.

I am pointing to the differences between a nerve impulse and electrons moving through a wire, such as that seen in a circuit.

A wire is not made up of just electrons, the free electrons drift in relation to the positive protons.

A wire is not pumping out potassium ions to the outside of the wire insulation.
First you need to grasp what an ion is:

I know what ions are just fine.

Only because you refuse to accept how each of those works.

I know exactly how nerve impulses work.

It is this difference in voltage that releases the ions, mere diffusion would not create a current flow in one direction, unless there was a reason they were all non-diffused to begin with and then reset. By electrical charge attracting or repelling them. What happens when these ions reach the receptor?

That is exactly how the ions get from the outside of the cell to the inside of the cell, by the process of diffusion through the open pore of a protein. Also, the movement of the positive ions is at a right angle to the propogation of the action potential.

Again you try to seperate one from the other. Your heartbeat is controlled by your sub-conscious mind, not itself.

Your heart rate can be adjusted by the brain, but the beat itself is controlled by the heart. A heart removed from the body can beat on it's own as long as it is supplied nutrients, oxygen, and the correct pressure feedback. I even gave you a vidoe of just that, a completely excised rat heart that was beating on it's own.

I think the simularities are worth pointing out.

What similarities do you think there are between a wire conductor carrying electrons and a nerve impulse that uses a wave of opening and closing proteins pores?
 
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Loudmouth

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Good question, how many times do we have to go over this? I have defined kind 20 times already.

You have never presented a set of criteria that could be used to determine if two species belong to the same kind or not.

Felidae is a kind. Canidae is a kind.

Based on what criteria?

I figured a concrete definition of kind 20 times already would be enough.

"Canidae" is not a definition for kind.

One more time, all feline creatures are of the same kind. All canine creatures are of the same kind. All apes are of the same kind. All humans are of the same kind. All birds are of a kind.

What criteria did you use to determine these kinds?
 
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Loudmouth

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I meant to say variations of dogs within the kind.

So why aren't humans a variation of primate, or a variation of vertebrate?

There is no DNA evidence that says humans descended from apes or any animal.

Yes, there is:

Constructing primate phylogenies from ancient retrovirus sequences

I'm not an expert in the field nor can I go back in time and see what was there before. The past is mostly outside the realm of the scientific method.

The past is most certainly in the realm of science. Scientists use evidence found in the present to reconstruct the past. This is exactly what forensic scientists do at a crime scene, and it is what we can do with the genomes of living species and the fossil record.


That is because it is historical science. It is inductive reasoning. It would be kind of hard to observe, test and repeat what already happened.

You don't repeat a theory. Repeatable evidence in science means data produced by experiments. It does not mean that you have to repeat past events. Also, there is only science. This separation between operational and historical science is something that creationists made up.

We'd have to hear it from an eyewitness. Do we have that? Hmmm....Oh, yeah. We do. God.

No, we have stories written by men.
 
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Loudmouth

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Those are all testable effects that happen in the present. Or results that can be observed in the present.


I presented the following in another thread, but you failed to respond. Perhaps you can respond to it here:

It is no different than a forensic scientist gathering evidence at a crime scene. Let's say that you are on a jury. The prosecution calls the forensic scientist to the stand and he demonstrates that the defendant's fingerprints, DNA, hair samples, fibers, shoe prints, and tire prints are all found on and around the murder victim, including on the knife that was found in the victim's chest. The defense cross examines the forensic scientist and asks him if he was an eyewitness to the crime. The forensic scientist says that he was not. The defense attorney then tells the jury, including you, that you should ignore everything that forensic scientist has just presented because it isn't evidence. In order to be evidence the forensic scientist would have to have witnessed the crime himself.

Would you be swayed by this argument?
 
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EternalDragon

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I totally forgot about the raven! If Noah had both the raven kind and the dove kind, that kinda blows EternalDragon's hypothesis out of the water.

Also, there's got to be a Poe or a "nevermore" joke in there somewhere. But I can't come up with a good one right now...

What hypothesis? Raven and Doves are the bird kind that can fly.

I am not about to try to break up all the different animals into kinds. Even experts have trouble with categorizing species.
 
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Loudmouth

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What hypothesis? Raven and Doves are the bird kind that can fly.

I am not about to try to break up all the different animals into kinds. Even experts have trouble with categorizing species.

That's because any level of taxonomy above the level of species is arbitrary. Where you draw the genus or family line between groups of species is left up to preference. There is no real division between the groups.
 
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Split Rock

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What hypothesis? Raven and Doves are the bird kind that can fly.

I am not about to try to break up all the different animals into kinds. Even experts have trouble with categorizing species.

Have you figured out yet why mammals and/or primates can not be considered "kinds?"
 
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EternalDragon

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You're getting very close to discussing "kinds" within "kinds" now. Hard not to, with the nested hierarchy... isn't it? But according to you, "kinds" were separately created... so there can be no "kinds" within "kinds." That is why you must ignore reality, since reality says there are.

I am in no way denying that species branch into different varieties. I just see no evidence that it goes as far as to be a completely different creature than the main species family.


Phylogenetic trees say otherwise. What genetic evidence would you expect?

Oh, I don't know. More similarities? I mean what they found right now may fool some people but it doesn't fool those that know what it means.

Good to see you admit you don't know what you are posting about.

Yes, and when dealing with past events you can't observe you have to make guesses.


You are the one who seems to be joking. Unfortunately, you aren't joking when you claim to believe in a man made from dirt and a woman from a man's rib.

Yes, made by an intelligence far greater than us. You are the one that believes every living things we see around us came from nothing and that complex biological machinery and code came from nothing.

I do not believe everything came from nothing or that biological system can increase on their own. It is the direct opposite of what we find.

The past leaves its mark or record on the present. Indeed, the present is built from the past. Do you deny this?

Sure.

Do you believe that the evidence has to be interpreted?
 
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Skaloop

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EternalDragon said:
What hypothesis? Raven and Doves are the bird kind that can fly.

Which would make them the same kind. So how many different representatives of each kind did Noah take on his ark?
 
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EternalDragon

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You know, it is quite curious that the christian does not get hung up on not observing (seeing) God and claiming he exists, but when it comes to things like forensic evidence in a murder case, they claim it isn't observable.

It would not be so curious if you took a moment to realize that the Christian has eyewitness testimony.

If a crime had that, then technically they could observe it.
 
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bhsmte

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It would not be so curious if you took a moment to realize that the Christian has eyewitness testimony.

If a crime had that, then technically they could observe it.

Eye witness testimony can be good, or it can be really unreliable if an agenda is in place. Also, the NT does not have eye witness accounts, none.
 
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Loudmouth

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I am in no way denying that species branch into different varieties. I just see no evidence that it goes as far as to be a completely different creature than the main species family.

A chimp and a human are not completely different. They are both primates.

A bear and a human are not completely different. They are both mammals.

A fish and a human are not completely different. They are both vertebrates.

A tree and a human are not completely different. They are both eukaryotes.

Oh, I don't know. More similarities? I mean what they found right now may fool some people but it doesn't fool those that know what it means.

So you are saying that species wouldn't share any similarities if they evolved from a common ancestor?

Yes, and when dealing with past events you can't observe you have to make guesses.

So a forensic scientist just guesses at whose fingerprints and DNA are found at a crime scene? Does a forensic scientist just guess as to how a victim died?

You are aware that we have evidence so that we don't have to guess, aren't you?

Yes, made by an intelligence far greater than us.

My mom and dad are pretty smart, but I doubt they are that much more intelligent than I am.

You are the one that believes every living things we see around us came from nothing and that complex biological machinery and code came from nothing.

You are the one ignoring biological reproduction, the OBSERVED method of how new organisms come about and how complex machinery comes about.

Do you believe that the evidence has to be interpreted?

Interpreted correctly, yes. What good is data if it isn't interpreted?
 
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