Top military officer: Gays should serve

[OllieFranz]

Well I must admit I didn't see your post #7--forgive me. Lots of people posted quickly. Therefore I will cover you points here I suppose.

Please remember that the Confederate States of America also had Black troops. And while it seems like the same premis, race and sexuality are different. While there are racial tensions within the army ranks, as with civilian world jobs I am sure, I feel that allowing homosexuals is a much different creature.

Blacks were allowed to serve, then they were intergrated into white units. So people already knew that Blacks were allowed in the military, even if only as cooks and what not. But this is intergration on a different level.

You seem to be thinking only of WWII, and not earlier. I already mentioned the buffalo soldiers. Pershing both got his nickname "BlackJack" and rose to general because he commanded strong units of black soldiers.

That blacks were "only cooks and what not" during WWII (that is, they were not assigned to front-line troops) does not mean that they did not see combat. Many did, and admirably. Just like women in today's army.

The front can shift quickly and dramatically, placing support troops in the direct line of fire. Support troops often ferry replacement equipment to the front line troops. Support troops are every bit as much trained and professional soldiers as the front line troops. They need to be.

BTW, the Confederacy conscripted black into their armed forces only out of desparation, and not to demoralize the North. And only after they learned (the hard way) that blacks could be formidable warriors.

 

[overit]

I'll just add what I did in another thread----maybe we need to check with 22 of our 26 NATO allies that DO allow openly gay men to serve in the military for advise???

Our policy of don't ask don't tell rivals China and Russia..nice.

Don't ask, don't tell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Most Western military forces have now removed policies excluding individuals of sexual orientations other than heterosexual (with strict policies on sexual harassment). Of the 26 countries that participate militarily in NATO, more than 22 permit gay people to serve; of the permanent members of the United Nations Security Council, two (Britain, France) permit gay people to serve openly, and three (United States, Russia, China) do not. Besides Greece, which bans homosexuals from serving, all other members of EU permit gay people to serve openly. The Greek discrimination policy has become the object of criticism by the European Union, as EU law prohibits discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.[46] In 2009, Argentina, Uruguay[47] and Philippines allowed gay men to serve openly in the military.[46] Israel Defense Forces policies allow gay men and lesbians to serve openly and without discrimination or harassment due to actual or perceived sexual orientation, including special units.[48] Consul David Saranga at the Israeli Consulate in New York City, stated, "It's a non-issue. You can be a very good officer, a creative one, a brave one, and be gay at the same time."[49]

 

[selfinflikted]

It's a valid point. You should answer it. And then accept the label of promiscuityandleeringaphobe if you don't want to allow it.

Ideally we wouldn't need Armies.

Touche!

Haha, touche indeed.

Seriously though, I have thought about this at length and this is what I think:

The point is completely moot, in my opinion. Why? Because homosexuals are ALREADY showering with the straight men. The only difference is, you don't know which ones they are.

 

[AlAyeti]

The point is completely moot, in my opinion. Why? Because homosexuals are ALREADY showering with the straight men. The only difference is, you don't know which ones they are.

May I forward your response on to the Pentagon?

Obviosuly Don't Ask, Don't Tell is a success. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[OllieFranz]

May I forward your response on to the Pentagon?

Obviosuly Don't Ask, Don't Tell is a success. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Yes, it is a success for the homophobes. The gay soldiers don't tell.

And it is true that most of the commanding officers don't ask -- directly -- any more. Funny, though, how the third part of the mantra (Don't investigate) has disappeared. There have witch hunts throughout the Armed Services ever since "Don't ask; don't tell; don't investigate" was first implemented.

 

[AlAyeti]

Yes, it is a success for the homophobes. The gay soldiers don't tell.

And it is true that most of the commanding officers don't ask -- directly -- any more. Funny, though, how the third part of the mantra (Don't investigate) has disappeared. There have witch hunts throughout the Armed Services ever since "Don't ask; don't tell; don't investigate" was first implemented.

A "commanding" officer. Having all those men under him.

Get ready for the straight versus gay sexual harrassment lawsuits. They probably won't have a chance to even see a day in court. Hopefully the Christians will not flee the military. But I'd encourage it.

It's far past time to live as Christians and let the world go the way it is destined.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Is it wrong that within the concept 'gays in the army', my problem is with the 'army' bit and not the 'gay' bit? I can see an awful lot wrong with violence but not with sexual orientation. :o

 

[AlAyeti]

Is it wrong that within the concept 'gays in the army', my problem is with the 'army' bit and not the 'gay' bit? I can see an awful lot wrong with violence but not with sexual orientation. :o

Not a bad perspective RJF. But both should be wrong in Christian life.

 

[Nooj]

May I forward your response on to the Pentagon?

Obviosuly Don't Ask, Don't Tell is a success. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

It's such a success that thousands of troops have been expelled from your military since the policy was established.

 

[Ayersy]

I think alot of people don't seem to understand that gay men aren't attracted to other men in the same way that heterosexual men are attracted to women.

One of my best friends came out a couple of years ago, he has never shown any sign of being attracted to anyone other than his partner. If we're getting changed in the same room, he won't look, he says he doesn't want to. It's not like all gay men want to perve on all other men.

Also, on the subject of rape, you seriously think they'd try that in the shower with all the other blokes around? They'd get beaten down in a flash.

 

[lawtonfogle]

I think alot of people don't seem to understand that gay men aren't attracted to other men in the same way that heterosexual men are attracted to women.

One of my best friends came out a couple of years ago, he has never shown any sign of being attracted to anyone other than his partner. If we're getting changed in the same room, he won't look, he says he doesn't want to. It's not like all gay men want to perve on all other men.

Also, on the subject of rape, you seriously think they'd try that in the shower with all the other blokes around? They'd get beaten down in a flash.

And it isn't like heterosexual men all want to perv on women. I have a friend who is only attracted to his wife. A lot of people, especially when they are in love, stop being attracted to anyone but their partner, be they gay or straight.

 

[armyman_83]

And it isn't like heterosexual men all want to perv on women. I have a friend who is only attracted to his wife. A lot of people, especially when they are in love, stop being attracted to anyone but their partner, be they gay or straight.

This brings up another point, while we have been talking it seems we have been speaking only of single servicemembers. Many are married, just think what all those army wives (and husbands!) would think should their husbands/wives shower with single women or men(if they are female). This being of course with the idea that sexually attracted people should be allowed to shower together. Adultery is a crime under the Uniform Code of Military Justice(UCMJ) and can cause one to be expelled from the service.

If you allow homosexuals to openly shower with heterosexual there will be problems, thats why women and men (straight) don't shower or live together.

Its not just showers, its everything. Like AlAyeti said, there will be lots more sexual harrassment cases too, heterosexuals charging homosexuals. If someone acts gay out of fun or slaps someone on the behind with only hetersexuals its one thing, but if you know someone is gay and it happens its sexual harrassment (in some eyes) and people can and will no doubt be charged.

If I am straight, do I have to bunk with a homosexual? I would feel uncomfortable. Or does the homosexual get his own quaters, in which case he is not treated equally with the rest, which causes problems.

 

[armyman_83]

You seem to be thinking only of WWII, and not earlier. I already mentioned the buffalo soldiers. Pershing both got his nickname "BlackJack" and rose to general because he commanded strong units of black soldiers.
That blacks were "only cooks and what not" during WWII (that is, they were not assigned to front-line troops) does not mean that they did not see combat. Many did, and admirably. Just like women in today's army.

My bad, I should have specified that most all white units who had blacks in them had them filling slots as cooks and things of that nature(as far as I am aware). I am aware that there were combat troops of color, "Black Jack" Persing is a good example like you said. And while you are right that non-combat units can do well in a fight, they cannot compare to the aggressive nature and combat efficiency of combat arms units, but then again I am totally biased.

The front can shift quickly and dramatically, placing support troops in the direct line of fire. Support troops often ferry replacement equipment to the front line troops. Support troops are every bit as much trained and professional soldiers as the front line troops. They need to be.

Again, yes support units are vital to the front line troops. But that support units have as much training in combat skills as combat units, this is (sadly) untrue. Even Support elements attached to Combat units get far less combat training--because they support the training! But you are right, every soldier must know the basic soldier tasks and everyone should be a rifleman first.

BTW, the Confederacy conscripted black into their armed forces only out of desparation, and not to demoralize the North. And only after they learned (the hard way) that blacks could be formidable warriors.

Actually there were volunteer units of Black soldiers, and alos volunteer black soldiers in white units. While most often black soldiers were used for manuel labour (on both sides) there were combat units. The 1st Louisana Guard being one unit in particular.

"'There are at the present moment, many colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders and bullets in their pockets ready to shoot down...and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government"--Fredrick Douglass

 

[levi501]

If soldiers can't adapt to the impact that righting this inequity brings then they weren't very good soldiers to begin with.

 

[Skaloop]

If I am straight, do I have to bunk with a homosexual? I would feel uncomfortable. Or does the homosexual get his own quaters, in which case he is not treated equally with the rest, which causes problems.

So you can handle time in the trenches, facing enemy fire, executing precision military maneuvers, all of which put your very life at risk, but you can't handle sleeping near a gay man?

 

[levi501]

C'mon they're soldiers! Toughen up peaches! Quit acting like babies.

"but him see my bottom."
pathetic...

 

[lawtonfogle]

If soldiers can't adapt to the impact that righting this inequity brings then they weren't very good soldiers to begin with.

Amen! This is why men and women should not be treated any different. Same bunks, same expectations, same restrooms/washrooms.

 

[lawtonfogle]

C'mon they're soldiers! Toughen up peaches! Quit acting like babies.

"but him see my bottom."
pathetic...

Yeah, pathetic, be it a man talking about another man or a woman talking about a man sharing the same washroom.

 

[keith99]

And it isn't like heterosexual men all want to perv on women. I have a friend who is only attracted to his wife. A lot of people, especially when they are in love, stop being attracted to anyone but their partner, be they gay or straight.

I was thinking of the same point from the other side. My experience is that gay men are very similar to straight men when it comes to being attracted to others. I have been at a gay leather event and been hit on. Not being the hottest guy there I did not have the problem of being hit on all night. In fact just one nibble. If I were to pick one difference it was that when turned down (I simply made it clear I was Het) the guy was far more polite than the average male in a similar het situation.

 

[keith99]

...
Its not just showers, its everything. Like AlAyeti said, there will be lots more sexual harrassment cases too, heterosexuals charging homosexuals. If someone acts gay out of fun or slaps someone on the behind with only hetersexuals its one thing, but if you know someone is gay and it happens its sexual harrassment (in some eyes) and people can and will no doubt be charged.

...

And things are somehow OK because of Don't ask, Don't? How so? If some guy slaps you on the ass you have no idea if he is gay or straight. That is much more disturbing than if the sexual prefereances are known. I've had Rugby teammates grab me. No problem, if there was anythgin sexual about it his wife would kill him. I have also been goosed at a gay event. Also no problem. The guy involved was part of a couple (A couple that had been togeather for decades) and it came off pretty much the same, except for a bit of 'teasing the straight guy'. Absolutely no problem because it also very strongly implied it was just teasing and we both would know there was nothing more to it.

But what if a guy you are not sure of does the same, especially if yuo know he can not be sure you are het? Oops, not the issues of is this jsut teasing/joking or is it a pass come up.

No, Don't ask, Don't tell createds the problem. It is not the solution. As an ongoing situation it is the worst of both worlds.