Tongues & the cessationists.

[Bible Highlighter]

Come now.you just ignored the op and scripture.. That states
. no one understands .
And the scripture that states there are different kinds/types .
There is tongues that can be understood by the stranger.
There is interpretation of tongues where the believer suddenly understands the language of a non believer
There are tongues which specifically " do not speak to man but to God and no man understands them.

Your ignoring so much to stick to a religious opinion a man taught you.
The bible doesnt teach cessationism.
Its taught by men who judge the outer appearance and do not believe.

Please share the verses that says exactly what yoiu said.

1 Corinthians 14 is dealing with speaking in tongues via public prayer (which must include an interpreter).

Side Note:

Again, there is no reason to believe that this was a kind of language that NOBODY could understand. The fact that an interpreter was needed and it makes a difference to the unbeliever shows that it was a real language of some kind. Unbelievers are not going to be impressed by some gibberish noise that they cannot understand.

Side Note 2:

I noticed that you do not post in the other threads on your denomination or favored teacher or teachers. Hiding truth like that does not bode well so as to convince any readers here unless they are already Charismatic.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Come now.you just ignored the op and scripture.. That states
. no one understands .
And the scripture that states there are different kinds/types .
There is tongues that can be understood by the stranger.
There is interpretation of tongues where the believer suddenly understands the language of a non believer
There are tongues which specifically " do not speak to man but to God and no man understands them.

Your ignoring so much to stick to a religious opinion a man taught you.
The bible doesnt teach cessationism.
Its taught by men who judge the outer appearance and do not believe.

Paul is also criticizing the improper use of tongues in 1 Corinthians 14. His point is not that tongues is some unknown language (verse 2), but his point is that if somebody does speak in an unknown tongue, it cannot be without an interpreter.

For Paul says that if one does speak in that way they are like a barbarian.

"Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian," (1 Corinthians 14:11).

Paul says,

"Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." (1 Corinthians 14:19).

So Paul is not endorsing speaking in an unknown tongue without an interpreter present to give meaning.

Tongues were also for unbelievers.

"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not" (1 Corinthians 14:22).

This is why there is no such thing as private prayer in tongues. With the exception of Pentecost, tongues are always public prayer to God and it is for the benefit of the unbeliever.

Seeing that tongues are for unbelievers, we have to conclude that they will help the unbeliever to be amazed in some way so as to help them to believe.

In other words, these tongues have to be as a miracle to them in some way.

Side Note:

Oh, and again, the words, "no man understands him" in 1 Corinthians 14:2 is not in reference to all men in the world. It is a generalized statement that tongues would not be understood because many do not always speak certain languages. Paul's point with tongues is that no man understands him.

For Paul says:
"how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air." (1 Corinthians 14:9).

 

[Alithis]

Please share the verses that says exactly what yoiu said.

1 Corinthians 14 is dealing with speaking in tongues via public prayer (which must include an interpreter).

refer to the Op in which the direct verse is quoted which says exactly that .

Side Note:

Again, there is no reason to believe that this was a kind of language that NOBODY could understand. The fact that an interpreter was needed and it makes a difference to the unbeliever shows that it was a real language of some kind. Unbelievers are not going to be impressed by some gibberish noise that they cannot understand.

The verse in the Op quoted directly from scripture gives 100% full reason to believe that a type of tongues - ..."..speaks not to MAN but to GOD and no man understands ... He edifies himself and speaks MYSTERIES in the spirit. If any man can understand then what he prays would not be a mystery.it would then not be the type of tongues that - Does not speak to men...
Calling it gibberish is nothing more then "name calling "
A ploy used when no solid refuting can be provided and one resorts to derogatory name calling thus proving .
You cant refute what is plainly written in scripture.

I noticed that you do not post in the other threads on your denomination or favored teacher or teachers. Hiding truth like that does not bode well so as to convince any readers here unless they are already Charismatic.

When a person redirects off the actual topic and onto false or non verified accusation against the "persons character or authority"
This is called "ad hominem "
It happens when a person has exhausted attemp to refute and instead launches personal attack.
E.g. 1: ...bringing up completely irrelevant points about the person not disclosing denomination . (it makes no difference the scripture will still say the same thing regardless of denomination)
E.g. 2: the false accusation ( attacking authority of character) of hiding the truth .
Which sounds like one is implying the person is a liar . all of which will still not change the validity of the point in the OP.
But is evidence that there is no clear scriptural basis and all the arguments of the party doing ad hominem and name calling have already been refuted.

Any further reply using "derogatory name calling"
Or "ad hominem " i will simply "report as a violation of the CF rules.

 

[Alithis]

To return to the OP .....and topic

To cut to the point...
This claim that if it is not an intelligible language its not tongues of the holy spirit is Fully refuted BY SCRIPTURE well Before cessationists made the claim.

Its simply this.. In his explanations and instructions around the topic of tongues and prophecy Paul makes an astounding statement.

....For he that speaketh in an
[unknown] tongue speaketh
not unto men, but unto God:
for no man understandeth
[him]; howbeit in the spirit he
speaketh mysteries..... 1 Corinth 14 v2..

Now i have left the parenthesis In on purpose. They are not in the greek but added -for transliteration .

But what IS in the greek i will now HIGHLIGHT in bold red.

.....For he that speaketh in an
[unknown] tongue speaketh
not unto men, but unto God:
for no man understandeth
[him]; howbeit in the spirit he
speaketh mysteries....

For me .this ENDS any cessationist argument saying if its not a humanly intelligible language its not real tongues.

In Fact.. When one is talking to GOD ( not men) if men could understand it. It would not be real tongues.
For he that speaks in tongues does not speak to Men ...but to God and NO MAN UNDERSTANDS..

 

[Alithis]

I think the OP has decided what they will believe and no amount of logic or basic exegetical methods will convince them otherwise.

it is what it is.

That's an opinion .
However iv only quoted what is plainly written IN scripture.
If you wish please go ahead and refute the scripture.

Otherwise ..Believe what is written .

After all a Christian is generally defined (among other things) as one who believes the Bible.
A person who does not believe what is written but seeks to refute it.
Is generally defined as an "unbeliever"

 

[Archivist]

Whats your point.. Lutherans did after all imprison ,torture,and execute by drowing and sword any believer that refused to submit to them ... (Historical fact) So i'd not expect to find much manifestation of the Holy spirit among that circle.

Are you always so rude? I didn't attack any church that believes in speaking in tongues nor did I say that doing so was wrong. I simply made a statement of fact--we Lutherans generally do not practice speaking in tongues. What did I say to warrant your attack on Lutherans? Further, you are talking about things that were done 500 years ago. Yes, the Lutherans persecuted Jews and Anabaptists among others. However the Middle Ages were a violent time and many Christian churches in Western Europe sadly engaged in such behavior. Even after the Middle Ages many churches treated indigenous peoples horribly; some churches continued such behavior until recently. That isn't the practice of the modern Lutheran church. In fact I read that a Lutheran church in Africa was recently attacked and burned by Muslim extremists. In the country where it happened (Ethiopia) it is required that families provide food and clothing who family members who are in prison. The congregation of the Lutheran church that was burned informed the government that they would provide food and clothing for the men who burned their church.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

refer to the Op in which the direct verse is quoted which says exactly that .

The verse in the Op quoted directly from scripture gives 100% full reason to believe that a type of tongues - ..."..speaks not to MAN but to GOD and no man understands ... He edifies himself and speaks MYSTERIES in the spirit. If any man can understand then what he prays would not be a mystery.it would then not be the type of tongues that - Does not speak to men...
Calling it gibberish is nothing more then "name calling "
A ploy used when no solid refuting can be provided and one resorts to derogatory name calling thus proving .
You cant refute what is plainly written in scripture.

I am only referring to the different versions of tongue speaking that I have witnessed today that I and other Charismatics do not agree with. For example: The shaking of heads, the making of animal noises, being thrown back on the ground, screaming on the ground, etc. is something that I and other Charismatic friends of mine do not agree with.

I don't have a problem with what Scripture says. I do accept that there was foreign tongue speaking at one time. It is true that in the spirit they spoke mysteries and they spoke unto God by tongues, but these mysteries were shortly revealed by the interpreter. The benefit was for the unbeliever (1 Corinthians 14:22) and not themselves.

"If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?" (1 Corinthians 14:23).

So Paul is criticizing the improper use of tongues.
He is criticizing tongues without an interpreter.

You have to think that Paul is writing to the Corinthians to correct their error on their improper use of tongues. So every word must be read with this thought in mind because the whole chapter is a condemnation on their wrong use of tongues.

When a person redirects off the actual topic and onto false or non verified accusation against the "persons character or authority"
This is called "ad hominem "

My apologies if you felt hurt by what I said.
But it was never my intention to personally attack you.
While I was pointing out the strength of your argument (again, my apologies), my primarily focus was on getting you to reveal more about your belief so I can truly know what you feel is correct. If you don't want to share that information, I am totally fine with that now. But again, my apologies if you felt I said hurtful things to you. It was never my ultimate true heart's intention. Ultimately I care and love you in Jesus Christ.

It happens when a person has exhausted attemp to refute and instead launches personal attack.
E.g. 1: ...bringing up completely irrelevant points about the person not disclosing denomination . (it makes no difference the scripture will still say the same thing regardless of denomination)

I don't share your view. I believe a person's denomination does play a very important role in understanding their view on tongues. Not all Charismatics believe the same things in regards to tongues and when it comes to other important doctrine.

For example:
There are non-Trinitarian Oneness Pentecostals.

I have talked with another Charismatic here on the forums, and she does not believe that all tongues speaking is genuine. She does not believe in the shaking of heads, and those screaming on the ground. Another online Charismatic friend of mine was actually thrown out of one of the churches for warning them against their improper use of tongues. There is a Christian friend I work with who is Charismatic, too. Again, I consider them to be my brothers and sisters in Christ. For me: It is a mystery. They seem like genuine good brethren with their hearts honestly seeking to follow the Lord. Yet, on the other hand, the Bible tells me that tongue speaking and some of the gifts of the Spirit (and not all) have ceased. I know in God's timing, He will reveal all things. But it is my mission to love all the brethren regardless.

E.g. 2: the false accusation ( attacking authority of character) of hiding the truth
Which sounds like one is implying the person is a liar . all of which will still not change the validity of the point in the OP.
But is evidence that there is no clear scriptural basis and all the arguments of the party doing ad hominem and name calling have already been refuted.

I disagree respectfully in love. Hiding truth is not the same as lying. Even Jesus hid the truth from certain people. For Jesus did not openly go around declaring to all that He was GOD and then used His ability as GOD to make that fact known to them.

I see lying is when a person bears false witness or say something that is not true (Especially when they know the truth). I am merely trying to find out what version of tongue speaking you believe in. Some Charismatics believe that all Christians MUST speak in tongues as a way to show that they received the Holy Spirit. Other Charismatics don't believe that.

Any further reply using "derogatory name calling"
Or "ad hominem " i will simply "report as a violation of the CF rules.

Again, my apologies if you felt I offended you.
It was not my intention to hurt you in any way. I am only speaking what I believe to be good and right in the sight of GOD.

In any event, may God bless you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My wife speaks Brazillian Portuguese. It is an unknown tongue to me and many English speaking people. That does not mean it is unknowable tongue or language, though.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1 Corinthians 14:2 ISV says,
"For the person who speaks in a foreign language is not actually speaking to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands him, because he is talking about secrets by the Spirit."

In other words, if only English speaking type people showed up the Spanish service of their church (and they don't know Spanish), it will be as if, "no one understands him." But does that mean nobody at all on the planet can understand him? No.

Paul is talking about a fellowship in small groups and he is not talking about everyone on the planet.

 

[Alithis]

I am only referring to the different versions of tongue speaking that I have witnessed today that I and other Charismatics do not agree with. For example: The shaking of heads, the making of animal noises, being thrown back on the ground, screaming on the ground, etc. is something that I and other Charismatic friends of mine do not agree with.

I don't have a problem with what Scripture says. I do accept that there was foreign tongue speaking at one time. It is true that in the spirit they spoke mysteries and they spoke unto God by tongues, but these mysteries were shortly revealed by the interpreter. The benefit was for the unbeliever (1 Corinthians 14:22) and not themselves.

"If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?" (1 Corinthians 14:23).

So Paul is criticizing the improper use of tongues.
He is criticizing tongues without an interpreter.

You have to think that Paul is writing to the Corinthians to correct their error on their improper use of tongues. So every word must be read with this thought in mind because the whole chapter is a condemnation on their wrong use of tongues.



My apologies if you felt hurt by what I said.
But it was never my intention to personally attack you.
While I was pointing out the strength of your argument (again, my apologies), my primarily focus was on getting you to reveal more about your belief so I can truly know what you feel is correct. If you don't want to share that information, I am totally fine with that now. But again, my apologies if you felt I said hurtful things to you. It was never my ultimate true heart's intention. Ultimately I care and love you in Jesus Christ.



I don't share your view. I believe a person's denomination does play a very important role in understanding their view on tongues. Not all Charismatics believe the same things in regards to tongues and when it comes to other important doctrine.

For example:
There are non-Trinitarian Oneness Pentecostals.

I have talked with another Charismatic here on the forums, and she does not believe that all tongues speaking is genuine. She does not believe in the shaking of heads, and those screaming on the ground. Another online Charismatic friend of mine was actually thrown out of one of the churches for warning them against their improper use of tongues. There is a Christian friend I work with who is Charismatic, too. Again, I consider them to be my brothers and sisters in Christ. For me: It is a mystery. They seem like genuine good brethren with their hearts honestly seeking to follow the Lord. Yet, on the other hand, the Bible tells me that tongue speaking and some of the gifts of the Spirit (and not all) have ceased. I know in God's timing, He will reveal all things. But it is my mission to love all the brethren regardless.



I disagree respectfully in love. Hiding truth is not the same as lying. Even Jesus hid the truth from certain people. For Jesus did not openly go around declaring to all that He was GOD and then used His ability as GOD to make that fact known to them.

I see lying is when a person bears false witness or say something that is not true (Especially when they know the truth). I am merely trying to find out what version of tongue speaking you believe in. Some Charismatics believe that all Christians MUST speak in tongues as a way to show that they received the Holy Spirit. Other Charismatics don't believe that.



Again, my apologies if you felt I offended you.
It was not my intention to hurt you in any way. I am only speaking what I believe to be good and right in the sight of GOD.

In any event, may God bless you.

I believe in all the types of tongues.
Refer back to the op .
That is the topic.

He that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks Not to man but to God for no man understands....

It is not, in that case, a human intelligable tongue .it is of the Holy Spirit.

Tongues or language of the Spirit
Is foriegn to man .

 

[swordsman1]

He that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks Not to man but to God for no man understands....

It is not, in that case, a human intelligable tongue .it is of the Holy Spirit.

Tongues or language of the Spirit
Is foriegn to man .

Unknown to the congregation, not to mankind.

Don't take the verse out of context.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Oh my, such disobedient children, what shall we do?

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

 

[swordsman1]

Oh my, such disobedient children, what shall we do?

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

What about counterfeit tongues? Those not matching the description in scripture?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

What about counterfeit tongues? Those not matching the description in scripture?

People reap what they sow, God will not be Mocked, but forbid not the speaking of tongues .. it is written.

 

[swordsman1]

People reap what they sow, God will not be Mocked, but forbid not the speaking of tongues .. it is written.

What people call tongues today is not the tongues of the New Testament. God IS being mocked.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

A choice is always given to us, we can read a scripture and regard it as scripture ... and apply it .. or we can tear it out of the bible in our hearts.

How many pages does your bible have?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

What people call tongues today is not the tongues of the New Testament. God IS being mocked.

Give room for God's Wrath, God has his job and you have yours.

If they're truly children of our Father, then you must trust that he will chastize them if this indeed the case.

 

[swordsman1]

Give room for God's Wrath, God has his job and you have yours.

If they're truly children of our Father, then you must trust that he will chastize them if this indeed the case.

And in the meantime we allow false teaching to continue?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

And in the meantime we allow false teaching to continue?

I find looking for and encouraging the fruit of the Holy Spirit helpful.

Even if what is going on is not what you or they think it is, God can still make what is foolish an expression of His very wisdom.

If someone thinks God gave them a gift, begin with what makes all gifts grow "faith"

the more we mature, the more our true gifts come out.

and the more the church is edified, which is the point of the gifts in the first place.

 

[swordsman1]

I find looking for and encouraging the fruit of the Holy Spirit helpful.

Even if what is going on is not what you or they think it is, God can still make what is foolish an expression of His very wisdom.

If someone thinks God gave them a gift, begin with what makes all gifts grow "faith"

the more we mature, the more our true gifts come out.

and the more the church is edified, which is the point of the gifts in the first place.

Yes, but that doesn't preclude correcting false teaching.