Tongues & the cessationists.

[Gregory Thompson]

Only that the church is Israel and the state of Israel is not biblical Israel.

Yes, that figurative area of study.

 

[Dave L]

Yes, that figurative area of study.

This is going off topic so I'll omit my reply

 

[Maria Billingsley]

How many different "interpretations" do you suppose you would get if you recorded a "tongues" message and took it around to different "interpreters"?

Probably lots of different versions which is why that is never done.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wasnt sure where to post this.

In Almost all (if not all) threads on this topic it will invariably come down to the claim (usually spoken irreverantly) that Tongues today are just babble and not tongues at all.

The same argument will be used repeatedly to shore up this unwise claim.
The cessationist will say
"In acts when they spoke in tongues it was an intelligible language that others can understand.
And if its not- its not real tongues.

[ In this post i first want to state -Tongues are Not a validation of rightouesness .i.e. Not everyone who speaks in tongues automatically goes to heaven . ]
Now.....
To make this claim many words in Pauls letters are fully ignored .

E.g - he states there are a diversity of tongues . there are more then only one "type " of tongues. He is not speaking about different languages but different types of language.
In the nateral a language is the means of communicating between two or more parties.
(Sign language's is a language which doesnt use the tongue.)

To cut to the point...
This claim that if it is not an intelligible language its not tongues of the holy spirit is Fully refuted BY SCRIPTURE well Before cessationists made the claim.

Its simply this.. In his explanations and instructions around the topic of tongues and prophecy Paul makes an astounding statement.

....For he that speaketh in an
[unknown] tongue speaketh
not unto men, but unto God:
for no man understandeth
[him]; howbeit in the spirit he
speaketh mysteries..... 1 Corinth 14 v2..

Now i have left the parenthesis In on purpose. They are not in the greek but added -for transliteration .

But what IS in the greek i will now HIGHLIGHT in bold red.

.....For he that speaketh in an
[unknown] tongue speaketh
not unto men, but unto God:
for no man understandeth
[him]; howbeit in the spirit he
speaketh mysteries....

For me .this ENDS any cessationist argument saying if its not a humanly intelligible language its not real tongues.

In Fact.. When one is talking to GOD ( not men) if men could understand it. It would not be real tongues.
For he tHat speaks in tongues does not speak to Men ...but to God and NO MAN UNDERSTANDS..

When the Bible talks about tongues: It is a foreign language (by a miracle of the gifting of the Spirit) that another does not understand that always includes an interpreter.

The Bible is not saying that tongues is not a language that does not bear the marks of a real language. All tongues languages that have been analyzed by linguists have proven that these are not some actual languages that are being spoken.

Languages have a certain pattern and a structure to them. Our God is not the author of confusion.

Also, the miracle of tongues is not as miraculous today because we have ear pieces that can translate languages in real time.

While I am not discounting that God could bless certain people to do this, there was always an interpreter that needed to be present for the use of public prayer in a miraculous foreign tongue. Most today are not following biblical rules on tongue speaking. There is no such thing as a private prayer language. Tongues were to always be a form of public prayer with an interpreter.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wasnt sure where to post this.

In Almost all (if not all) threads on this topic it will invariably come down to the claim (usually spoken irreverantly) that Tongues today are just babble and not tongues at all.

The same argument will be used repeatedly to shore up this unwise claim.
The cessationist will say
"In acts when they spoke in tongues it was an intelligible language that others can understand.
And if its not- its not real tongues.

[ In this post i first want to state -Tongues are Not a validation of rightouesness .i.e. Not everyone who speaks in tongues automatically goes to heaven . ]
Now.....
To make this claim many words in Pauls letters are fully ignored .

E.g - he states there are a diversity of tongues . there are more then only one "type " of tongues. He is not speaking about different languages but different types of language.
In the nateral a language is the means of communicating between two or more parties.
(Sign language's is a language which doesnt use the tongue.)

To cut to the point...
This claim that if it is not an intelligible language its not tongues of the holy spirit is Fully refuted BY SCRIPTURE well Before cessationists made the claim.

Its simply this.. In his explanations and instructions around the topic of tongues and prophecy Paul makes an astounding statement.

....For he that speaketh in an
[unknown] tongue speaketh
not unto men, but unto God:
for no man understandeth
[him]; howbeit in the spirit he
speaketh mysteries..... 1 Corinth 14 v2..

Now i have left the parenthesis In on purpose. They are not in the greek but added -for transliteration .

But what IS in the greek i will now HIGHLIGHT in bold red.

.....For he that speaketh in an
[unknown] tongue speaketh
not unto men, but unto God:
for no man understandeth
[him]; howbeit in the spirit he
speaketh mysteries....

For me .this ENDS any cessationist argument saying if its not a humanly intelligible language its not real tongues.

In Fact.. When one is talking to GOD ( not men) if men could understand it. It would not be real tongues.
For he tHat speaks in tongues does not speak to Men ...but to God and NO MAN UNDERSTANDS..

Here are my biblical reasons why I believe miraculous gifts have ceased.

Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

 

[Alithis]

Here are my biblical reasons why I believe miraculous gifts have ceased.

Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

Well i wont even bother reading them.
Iv personally laid hands on the sick in JESUS name and the people are healed.
Iv personally prayed for people and they have fallen down and devils screamed and came out
Iv personally seen people come up out of water baptism and be baptised in the holy spirit spontaniously speaking in tongues.

JESUS..the same yesterday today and forever.
Unbelief justified by human reasoning is still the sin of unbelief.

 

[Alithis]

When the Bible talks about tongues: It is a foreign language (by a miracle of the gifting of the Spirit) that another does not understand that always includes an interpreter.

The Bible is not saying that tongues is not a language that does not bear the marks of a real language. All tongues languages that have been analyzed by linguists have proven that these are not some actual languages that are being spoken.

Languages have a certain pattern and a structure to them. Our God is not the author of confusion.

Also, the miracle of tongues is not as miraculous today because we have ear pieces that can translate languages in real time.

While I am not discounting that God could bless certain people to do this, there was always an interpreter that needed to be present for the use of public prayer in a miraculous foreign tongue. Most today are not following biblical rules on tongue speaking. There is no such thing as a private prayer language. Tongues were to always be a form of public prayer with an interpreter.

You should go back and READ the op.

A tongue ..language that NO one UNDERSTANDS.

No one no man... Not any person .

Your reply is a perfect example of cessationist dishonesty when it comes to scripture.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well i wont even bother reading them.
Iv personally laid hands on the sick in JESUS name and the people are healed.
Iv personally prayed for people and they have fallen down and devils screamed and came out
Iv personally seen people come up out of water baptism and be baptised in the holy spirit spontaniously speaking in tongues.

JESUS..the same yesterday today and forever.
Unbelief justified by human reasoning is still the sin of unbelief.

What denomination or church you go to?
Is there a pastor you recommend?

 

[Alithis]

The idea of tongues being a non-human, unintelligible language has only been in the church since the beginning of the 20th Century. Before then, throughout all of church history, tongues has been universally understood to be miraculously speaking foreign human languages - from the time of the church fathers (immediately after the first century) onwards. What has appeared in the church in the last hundred years is not the New Testament gift of tongues, but rather a natural phenomenon of the flesh known to linguists as glossolalia, where the human speech organs go into 'autopilot' and produces strings of random syllables. It has been well studied and found to be fundamentally not a language. Neither is it unique to Christianity.

God is not human he speaks
Angeks are nit human ...they speak
I dont care what your opinion is
Its not scripturally based.
The op stands

The cessationist cannot say that tongues are fake just because its not an inteligible language by mans standard.

Scripture shows
1. There are a diversity of types of tongues.
2. That when a person prays in tongues to god "no man understands" and "he does not speak to man but to God.AND he speaks mysteries in the Spirit.

Its a done deal

 

[Alithis]

What denomination or church you go to?
Is there a pastor you recommend?

off topic .
Start a thread

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well i wont even bother reading them.
Iv personally laid hands on the sick in JESUS name and the people are healed.
Iv personally prayed for people and they have fallen down and devils screamed and came out
Iv personally seen people come up out of water baptism and be baptised in the holy spirit spontaniously speaking in tongues.

Should our experiences over rule what God's Word says?
There are many who claim to have visions of Jesus, heaven, and hell?
However, these visions contradict God's Word.
Should we trust their experience any ways despite what God's Word says?
Granted, I am not saying that you are not operating by the power of GOD.
You may believe that you are and you may very well be doing so.
I don't know all of your beliefs, your experiences, and nor have I witnessed what you have done.
All I have is your word that what you say is true.
But my trust in Jesus and the faith rests in what God's Word says.
Hence, if things are as you say, then the verses I presented should not be a challenge for you to explain.

JESUS..the same yesterday today and forever.
Unbelief justified by human reasoning is still the sin of unbelief.

Right, Jesus has not changed, but that does not mean that Christ did not teach Old Covenant before He died on the cross. For Christ's death began the New Covenant.

Before the cross, Jesus approved of animal sacrifices.

For Jesus said,
"leave your sacrifice there at the altar. Go and be reconciled to that person. Then come and offer your sacrifice to God" (Matthew 5:24) (NLT).

Do we offer animal sacrifices under the New Covenant today?
Surely not.
But before the cross, this was an acceptable to do because it was still the Old Covenant.

We are also told in Scripture to greet one another with a holy kiss. Do we do this today in churches? In America churches this would be a.... "no."

Woman are told to wear a head covering. Are we supposed to do this even though the culture has changed?

In other words, God can make changes.

 

[Alithis]

Should our experiences over rule what God's Word says?
There are many who claim to have visions of Jesus, heaven, and hell?
However, these visions contradict God's Word.
Should we trust their experience any ways despite what God's Word says?
Granted, I am not saying that you are not operating by the power of GOD.
You may believe that you are and you may very well be doing so.
I don't know all of your beliefs, your experiences, and nor have I witnessed what you have done.
All I have is your word that what you say is true.
But my trust in Jesus and the faith rests in what God's Word says.
Hence, if things are as you say, then the verses I presented should not be a challenge for you to explain.



Right, Jesus has not changed, but that does not mean that Christ did not teach Old Covenant before He died on the cross. For Christ's death began the New Covenant.

Before the cross, Jesus approved of animal sacrifices.

For Jesus said,
"leave your sacrifice there at the altar. Go and be reconciled to that person. Then come and offer your sacrifice to God" (Matthew 5:24) (NLT).

Do we offer animal sacrifices under the New Covenant today?
Surely not.
But before the cross, this was an acceptable to do because it was still the Old Covenant.

We are also told in Scripture to greet one another with a holy kiss. Do we do this today in churches? In America churches this would be a.... "no."

Woman are told to wear a head covering. Are we supposed to do this even though the culture has changed?

In other words, God can make changes.

Our experiences are not of consequence but our testimony is in JESUS name.
But our Obedience IS of great consequence.

However to stay on topic and not be led down the rabbit hole of ambiguity which is little more then a ploy

The cessationist cannot say that tongues are fake just because its not an inteligable language by mens standard.
. Scripture shows
1. There are a diversity of types of tongues.
2. That when a person prays in tongues to god "no man understands" and "he does not speak to man but to God.AND he speaks mysteries in the Spirit.

Its a done deal

 

[Bible Highlighter]

off topic .
Start a thread

I would appreciate it if you responded to these two threads.

What Minister or Christian teacher would you recommend? Why do you like them?

Tell Me About Your Denomination/Church

May God bless you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You should go back and READ the op.

A tongue ..language that NO one UNDERSTANDS.

No one no man... Not any person .

Your reply is a perfect example of cessationist dishonesty when it comes to scripture.

No. As I said before, it is not talking in modern terms but it is talking in reference to the time they spoken in. These clearly were foreign languages that they spoke. For if an unbeliever listens to a tongues speaker and they recognize that a person is speaking Roman but they do not know all of what they are saying, but when the interpreter gives the meaning, it is then a miracle being done before their eyes and they can believe as a result.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Our experiences are not of consequence but our testimony is in JESUS name.
But our Obedience IS of great consequence.

However to stay on topic and not be led down the rabbit hole of ambiguity which is little more then a ploy

The cessationist cannot say that tongues are fake just because its not an inteligable language by mens standard.
. Scripture shows
1. There are a diversity of types of tongues.
2. That when a person prays in tongues to god "no man understands" and "he does not speak to man but to God.AND he speaks mysteries in the Spirit.

Its a done deal

Nowhere does the Bible say that these are languages that nobody could never know. In fact, the very reason that it was interpreted made it a miracle because those who do speak the language can see that a miracle had taken place if they know the speaker and the interpreter personally their whole lives.

 

[gideon123]

I do believe that many people today are babbling. And this does not honor God at all. In the same way, many people are uttering false prophecies. This also dishonors God.

But i am not judging them. And therefore when you imply that those 'opposed' are Cessationists, you are creating a division that does nor exist.

When did i tell you to stop speaking in Tongues? That is a personal decision. I dont tell people these things.

And yes, Paul did encourage speaking in Tongues ... by those with the true presence of the Holy Spirit. But read all of his words, and not just a few extracted to support one particular argument. And you will discover that Paul also says that many new believers do not yet have the presence of the Spirit, in the same way as Paul or Peter.

Let us be humble and worship God in truth. Just these simple things.

 

[Archivist]

I never heard anyone speaking in tongues in the Lutheran church.

 

[Alithis]

Nowhere does the Bible say that these are languages that nobody could never know. In fact, the very reason that it was interpreted made it a miracle because those who do speak the language can see that a miracle had taken place if they know the speaker and the interpreter personally their whole lives.

Come now.you just ignored the op and scripture.. That states
. no one understands .
And the scripture that states there are different kinds/types .
There is tongues that can be understood by the stranger.
There is interpretation of tongues where the believer suddenly understands the language of a non believer
There are tongues which specifically " do not speak to man but to God and no man understands them.

Your ignoring so much to stick to a religious opinion a man taught you.
The bible doesnt teach cessationism.
Its taught by men who judge the outer appearance and do not believe.

 

[Alithis]

I do believe that many people today are babbling. And this does not honor God at all. In the same way, many people are uttering false prophecies. This also dishonors God.

But i am not judging them. And therefore when you imply that those 'opposed' are Cessationists, you are creating a division that does nor exist.

When did i tell you to stop speaking in Tongues? That is a personal decision. I dont tell people these things.

And yes, Paul did encourage speaking in Tongues ... by those with the true presence of the Holy Spirit. But read all of his words, and not just a few extracted to support one particular argument. And you will discover that Paul also says that many new believers do not yet have the presence of the Spirit, in the same way as Paul or Peter.

Let us be humble and worship God in truth. Just these simple things.

You believe that..because cessationists told you that. So its a bigger deal then you think.
It only took one lie to bring one man to sin and by one mans sin death came to all....

We are to heed the warning ...we now live in a time of more doctrines of devils then ever before.
And compromising truth in the name of unity is also a doctrine of devils.

 

[Alithis]

I never heard anyone speaking in tongues in the Lutheran church.

Whats your point.. Lutherans did after all imprison ,torture,and execute by drowing and sword any believer that refused to submit to them ... (Historical fact) So i'd not expect to find much manifestation of the Holy spirit among that circle.