Tongues as Initial Evidence

[Alive_Again]

<Hmmm. All I can say is, For why should my freedom be limited by what someone else thinks? (1 Cor. 10.29)

<If you don't want to see those pop-up ads why not send a support offering to CF then they will be blocked. I did and I never see ads. If you're seriously offended I would get out my credit card.

Maybe I'm just moaning. The spiritual oppression is real. If someone handed you a brochure for Eckankar, it would come with an evil spirit. The point is, is that this is a Christian forum. There should be some discernment regarding who should be able to advertise, and what they show. The enemy of course, would love to be able to minister oppression on the Body of Christ anyone he can. In fact, unopposed, he will do everything he can to steal, kill, and destroy our lives, and the well being of this country. It's when people don't stand up against oppression that the minority really rule, and it's often for the worse.

I'm also reluctant to reward someone for dishing out oppression. It's far better to create awareness that certain things are wrong. It's important to pray for people in decision making positions, because they are often the ones asleep at the wheel when things that are glaringly obvious move against our liberty.

Does anyone else feel this way?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I would say that utterance (not tongues) is the initial evidence of being born again. We all receive the utterace to say "abba" when we are born again. This is a form of speaking in tongues. Our minds may not conceive what we are saying... but God hears it and understands.

 

[Tenacity]

I would say that utterance (not tongues) is the initial evidence of being born again. We all receive the utterace to say "abba" when we are born again. This is a form of speaking in tongues. Our minds may not conceive what we are saying... but God hears it and understands.

I am not sure that I am grasping what you are saying but,
Growing up in my non tongue speaking church we would often sing "Alleluia" It had several verses that were simply a matter of repeating the same phrase.
There was
"We love you Jesus"
"Thank you Jesus"
"You are holy"
but the best one for me was always "Alleluia"
I had no idea what Alleluia meant but I was singing it with all of my heart to the creator of the universe. It was at these times that I could really sense the presence of the Holy Spirit.

"Alleluia" became to me much the same as what I experience now when I sing or pray in the spirit, in tongues.

 

[Godslilgurlalways]

You need to believe/have the faith before you can recieve the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which is the evidence of speaking in tongues.

Acts 19:2
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.


Since ye believed meaning you believed before recieved the Holy Ghost.

 

[Biblicist]

MrBojangles (# 20)

As you likely know, the word for "tongues" in actually "languages" and so we may be jumping the gun assuming that the intended meaning was the spiritual gift "diversities of tongues" rather than the spiritual gift "prophesy”.

As a newbie to this forum I am coming in a bit late onto this topic which is the reason for the late post.

The correct Greek word for languages is not glossa (GK1185 /SC1100) which is used for our English tongues but dialektos (GK1365/SC1258) which refers to language.

One of the problems with understanding how glossa is used within the NT is that the various translations can be rather free with literary license. For instance most translations use ‘language’ in 1Co 14:10,11 where the Greek uses phone for sound; so a literal rendering is (10)“There are perhaps a great many sounds in the world and none is without meaning. (11)If then I do not know the meaning of the sound I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian…” This changes the meaning of the passage dramatically and to my knowledge the NRSV is the only major translation that currently renders phone correctly.

When Luke and Paul use glossa it should always be rendered as tongue and never language otherwise they would have never chosen glossa over dialektos. It should pointed out that glossa also refers to the physical organ and if we were to inert ‘language’ into these texts they would look rather strange.

Barry

 

[RisingSpirit]

But, and here's the point, the observers who see the person being baptised in the Spirit, the initial evidence for them is the gift of tongues. How else are they going to know that the particular person they prayed for has actually received the baptism in the Spirit?

Is it possible that the person speaks in Tongues in such a way that others can't tell. I mean, is there a quiet version of Tongues? Like putting a frog in a pot of water and heat it up slowly that the frog doesn't notice he is being boiled and never hops out but dies instead. Is it possible for the baptism arrive slowly that no one notices. Perhaps like the groans and moans described in the Bible or a silent version of Tongues? Why do Tongues have to be quickly and sudden?

 

[Biblicist]

RisingSpirit (# 166),

Is it possible that the person speaks in Tongues in such a way that others can't tell.

As with praying with the mind, we can also pray and praise the Lord in tongues under our breath but why would we want to especially during water baptism?

I would imagine that anyone who goes for water baptism expecting to receive the Baptism in the Spirit with the ability to speak in tongues that they would want to speak it out.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

I had an interesting thought while I was thinking about the issues around the initial evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I was tempted to put it on the AOG forum, but once bitten - twice shy!

However, the thought I had was that the initial evidence of people receiving the baptism in the Spirit was the gift of tongues as shown in the book of Acts. It was quite obvious that this was the case. This is the basis of AOG doctrine.

My conflict about that is that the first evidence of a person receiving the baptism is faith - because it is received by faith, and according to Hebrews, faith is the evidence of things not seen. But when I expressed this on the AOG forum, I came under some intense flak because some thought that I was attacking AOG doctrine.

But it is a matter of perspective. I believe that for the person receiving the baptism in the Spirit, the initial evidence is faith. he believes in faith that he is filled with the Spirit and therefore he launches out and speaks in tongues.

But, and here's the point, the observers who see the person being baptised in the Spirit, the initial evidence for them is the gift of tongues. How else are they going to know that the particular person they prayed for has actually received the baptism in the Spirit?

When we analyse it that way, then there is no conflict with AOG doctrine, because it is a matter of what is manifested by the person receiving the baptism and this manifestation is seen by the observers and for them the initial evidence is the gift of tongues!

But for the person receiving the baptism, he cannot speak in tongues into he first believes he is baptised in the Spirit, therefore faith comes first, then the gift of tongues. This is why I contend that for the person receiving the baptism in the Spirit, the initial evidence for him is faith. Then the next evidence which should flow naturally is the gift of tongues.

I know I'm late to the party, but this is an excellent point Oscar. One could say that we have to have faith for anything we pray for before we expect it to occur in our lives, being salvation, healing, peace, or whatever the Lord has promised. Without faith we cannot please God.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

A Complex issue. During the Charismatic outpouring (1966-1979 or so), the doctrine of initial evidence was being called into question. Folks were experiencing MASSIVE "Baptized in the Spirit" experiences that yielded the expected results (Appetite for scripture, boldness in ministry, greater commitment to the Lord, and a stronger relationship, and power in ministry) - but no tongues.

The same is occurring World Wide, and in some localities, "Tongues" isn't felt to be "initial evidence - Power in ministry is.

Since the "Pentecostals" were really never a major part of the Charismatic outpouring, Charismatics simply came to the conclusion that the "Doctrine of initial evidence" was just a "denominational paradigm", NOT REALLY supported by the Word.

However it HAS BEEN "normative" since 1900 that in the MAJORITY of cases, tongues is part of the package.

In my case, (after a decade of pentecostal back-rubbing sessions to get me "Baptized in the Holy Spirit", and a RAFT of lousy teaching about it), I simply prayed for the Baptism in a FGBMFI Meeting in 1973 - and nothing happened, as usual. But a month later in another FGBMFI meeting during the after-dinner worship - a strange word "popped" into my mind, and when I spoke it quietly, more words came, and I was speaking in "tongues".

And it was not emotional, or "exciting" - it was "just there" - and 38 years later, it still is. And there was a sense of "completeness". And there was power for ministry, and doors opened -

God is a God of infinite variety, so It shouldn't surprise anybody when HE Kicks the ends out of the little denominational "Boxes" that we desperately try to stuff Him into.

SO I don't teach a "Doctrine of Initial evidence" - I teach folks NOT to Seek tongues, but to seek FIRST the Kingdom of God And HIS righteousness - and all these things will be added unto you. ANd I tell 'em that when they're baptised in the Holy Spirit, it's LIKELY that they will speak in tongues.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

After all this time, I have had some interesting thoughts about the baptism in the Spirit and tongues.

I didn't see this clearly before, but Peter said to the crowd on the Day of Pentecost, "These things you see and hear..." What did they see and hear? Tongues!

When Cornelius and his household were baptised in the Spirit, how did Peter know that? They spoke in tongues!

How did Paul know that the Ephesian disciples got baptised in the Spirit? He heard them speak in tongues and magnify God.

So, in all the examples of the Holy Spirit falling on people, tongues were what was observed before anything else. There are no references in Acts where tongues did not accompany the baptism in the Spirit.

It is also interesting that when I counsel people through to the baptism in the Spirit I use the following steps (you see I believe in pre-counselling people first to ensure that they are using their faith and not seeking some sensory experience)

I sit them down in a quiet place and take them through these steps:

1. Do you believe it is God's will for you to receive right now? If yes, confess it by saying "I believe that it is God's will for me to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit right now.

2. Ask for Him to come into your life. The way we get things from God is to ask Him. By prayer and supplication make your requests known to God. Pray out loud (confession again).

3. Receive the Holy Spirit into your life. If we pray for anything that is the will of God for us (and we established that in point 1), then He will give it to us. All we need to do is to receive it. Confess: "I now receive the Holy Spirit into my life."

4. At this point you are baptised in the Holy Spirit. How do you know that this has happened? Because the Word of God says so! You may not feel a thing, but your faith is not aligned to feelings but the Word of God. The Word says that if an evil father knows how to give good gifts to his children, how much more does the Father know how to give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him. You asked, you received. It is as simple as that. Now confess it!

5. "I believe that I am now baptised in the Spirit. Thank you Jesus!"

Once you have done that, you may start experience love, peace, joy, or any other manifestation, and this is okay because the manifestation is following your Scripture based faith.

6. But that's not all! You can now speak in tongues!

I believe that faith needs to be activated for tongues to flow. This means we don't just stand there with our mouths open hoping that somehow the Holy Spirit will vibrate our speech faculties. How can he? He is a Spirit! He has entered our spirit. Then how can we speak in tongues?

(Be careful that the devil does not defeat you at the post by manifesting something like the gift of tongues as some type of force that takes over your speech. This is not faith, because faith is a choice to believe God's Word. If your speech faculties are taken over and placed out of your control then this violates faith and therefore is a counterfeit.)

Faith in God's word means that we have to do something. If I went through the steps of faith to be converted, what do I do next? I get baptised. That is a choice I make on the basis of my belief in God's Word. It is an act that shows the world that I believe I am saved. That is the purpose of baptism, to activate my faith that I am saved.

To activate faith, I have to do something. With the gift of tongues, I then have to deliberately make up a language that I believe is the gift of tongues and that God understands it.

The difference between speaking nonsense and a language that God understands is my faith. What do I believe I am doing when I am making up the language. I believe that I am speaking in tongues. What happens is that often there is a flow of a beautiful language that comes out of a person when they activate their faith in that way. I have seen it happen time after time. Even though I get them to repeat some words in my tongue, they are quickly speaking their own unique language when they get the idea of how to activate their faith.

"Experience-based" theology hates this way of activing faith. But that thelogy is faith in feelings and manifestations and not in God's written Word. God always honours faith in His Word, and I have seen that demonstrated many times.

But I have more error and counterfeit when people have tried to get a manifestation, or frustration when they have waited and waited for some force to take over their speech and induce them to speak in tongues without any effort on their part.

The devil hates tongues, and He will do all he can to countefeit it. But he cannot counterfeit anything when a believer uses his faith in God's Word.

Faith says, I believe, I ask, I receive, I confess, now I can speak in tongues and I am now going to start speaking!

If you do not have the gift of tongues and want to receive it, you can follow these steps in the privacy and quiet of your own room. You don't have to wait for a hyped up atmosphere of a church meeting. You don't have to wait for anyone to lay hands on you, although laying on of hands for the baptism in the Spirit is quite Scriptural, as long as you accept the laying on of hands in faith and base your faith on the Word of God as I have said. The laying on of hands can be a help to your faith, especially when the person laying his hands on you is a trusted ministry, proven to impart genuine spiritual gifts.

So, after all that, I teach that receiving tongues is an essential part of receiving the baptism in the Spirit, and is the best indication that you have, in fact, received it. Without the gift of tongues, your faith in that you have received the baptism may drain away when the devil starts to bring doubts to your mind about it, as he will.

But receiving the gift of tongues, and being able to speak a fluent, beautiful language that you know could not be coming from just you, is a great way of maintaining your faith that you are baptised with the Spirit and that the Spirit is moving in and through you. Tongues is also the first stepping stone to using the other gifts.

 

[JEBrady]

After all this time, I have had some interesting thoughts about the baptism in the Spirit and tongues.

I didn't see this clearly before, but Peter said to the crowd on the Day of Pentecost, "These things you see and hear..." What did they see and hear? Tongues!

When Cornelius and his household were baptised in the Spirit, how did Peter know that? They spoke in tongues!

How did Paul know that the Ephesian disciples got baptised in the Spirit? He heard them speak in tongues and magnify God.

So, in all the examples of the Holy Spirit falling on people, tongues were what was observed before anything else. There are no references in Acts where tongues did not accompany the baptism in the Spirit.

You are restating some of the biblical basis for the Pentecostal doctrine of initial evidence, with the exception of your last sentence. For instance, it is not expressly stated that the Samaritans spoke in tongues, but the doctrine makes the point that there had to be some way to know that they hadn't received the Holy Spirit when they believed or they wouldn't have known to call for Peter and John to lay hands on them. Further, there must have been some physical evidence for Simon the Sorcerer to have offered to pay to be able to lay hands on people to get the baptism. Also, it doesn't expressly say Paul spoke in tongues when he received the baptism when Ananias laid hands on him, but in Corinthians we see he spoke in tongues a lot.

The doctrine of initial evidence is laid out in exhaustive detail in Brumback's book, What Meaneth This?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"To activate faith, I have to do something. With the gift of tongues, I then have to deliberately make up a language that I believe is the gift of tongues and that God understands it."

This, to ME would be DEVASTATINGLY BAD teaching - essentially exactly what Marjoe Gortner, and Victor Wierwille taught folks to do. It almost GUARANTEES the the person so instructed will wind up with a phony "tongue" produced by his OWN mind, and unrelated to the Holy Spirit.

AND to make matters worse since their "foundation for the gifts is now TOTALLY WRONG, the other manifestations that they may "Make up in faith" are likely also to be phony.

You teach people NOT to move in "faith", but in presumption.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

"To activate faith, I have to do something. With the gift of tongues, I then have to deliberately make up a language that I believe is the gift of tongues and that God understands it."

This, to ME would be DEVASTATINGLY BAD teaching - essentially exactly what Marjoe Gortner, and Victor Wierwille taught folks to do. It almost GUARANTEES the the person so instructed will wind up with a phony "tongue" produced by his OWN mind, and unrelated to the Holy Spirit.

AND to make matters worse since their "foundation for the gifts is now TOTALLY WRONG, the other manifestations that they may "Make up in faith" are likely also to be phony.

You teach people NOT to move in "faith", but in presumption.

So what would you do? Wait with your mouth open and your mind passive so that the devil can give you a false manifestation and a counterfeit tongue?

Do you speak in tongues yourself? If so, how did you start? Did some force come and take over your speech faculties? If so, that is not faith because it does not involve your own active mind and choice to do something tangible to activate your faith.


Do you know even what faith actually is?

I am not sure that you actually read my post carefully. If you did you will see that the steps of faith that led to the confession "I believe I am baptised in the Holy Spirit are Scriptural.

Believing that it is God's will for me - Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to the church 2000 years ago on the Day of Pentecost.

Asking for Him to come into my life - God has ordained that we receive everything He has for us by asking Him. "By prayer and supplication make your requests known to God" "You have not because you ask not"

Receiving Him into my life - "He who asks, receives"

Confessing my belief that I am now baptised in the Spirit. Confessing my faith is a strong Scriptural principle.

All these are foundation principles of faith. Faith is merely believing the Word of God, nothing more. My faith does not baptise me in the Holy Spirit, Jesus does by honouring our faith and confession.

Therefore, because I am baptised in the Spirit, I can speak in tongues. Therefore, I act out my belief by starting to speak in tongues. The Holy Spirit honours my faith by inspiring the words, but I have to make the effort to speak them. But how can I start speaking in tongues until I make the effort to make sounds, put them together into syllables, words and sentences?

What if Moses did not lift up his rod over the Red sea? Would the sea have parted? Didn't he do something to activate his belief in the truth of God's command?

What if Gideon did not take his army of 300 to go out and fight the Midians? Would he have won the victory. He had to take some type of action to prove that he was obeying God's command.

Faith requires action on our part. Abraham had to get up off his acre and start moving to go where God was calling him. He had to put legs on his faith.

When Jesus sent out the 70 to minister in His Name, didn't they go out on the basis of His command alone with no other evidence that anything was going to happen?

How did you get saved? Did you not believe that Jesus rose from the dead, and then confessed it with your mouth? What did you do then? Sit on your acre with a passive mind and wait for some mystical "force" to make you live a holy life? Did someone carry you into the baptismal pool and dunk you under the water? Or did you decide to get baptised and walked yourself into the pool?

What do you think the gift of tongues is? Is is some mystical, magical language that comes up out of you without any effort on your part to speak the words?

When I first got baptised in the Holy Spirit 45 years ago, I started speaking in tongues because the Spirit told me I could. I did not receive Him by the laying on of hands. I received Him in my own room, privately, away from any emotional hype or anything like that. Because I believed Jesus gave me the baptism in the Spirit effectively 2000 years ago, I received Him into my Spirit, and then tried to speak in tongues. I made up the language because that was the only thing that I could do. After a very short time, I was speaking a very fluent language and I lost the sense that I was making it up. Over the years I have spoken many different languages that I could never have made up. Speaking these languages has greatly increased my faith in Christ, and that is something the devil would never do.

In fact, I have had the experience of speaking in tongues, and a Maori lady spoke to me afterward and said that I had spoken in the Maori language and that God had greatly encouraged her. That does not come with a language that comes just from my own mind.

On another occasion when I was interceding for a seriously ill woman in hospital, I started speaking a language that came out so fast and furious that I did not have time to make it up. When I finished after 20 minutes, I felt really drained, but had the definite assurance of victory. That lady was not expected to live, but she recovered and is still alive today.

When I have helped people to speak in tongues I have used my tongues languages to "prime their pump", and when I have told them to put it all together and speak without stopping, they have come out with their own beautiful, distinctive language, quite unlike mine. They told me that the language just flowed out of them.

You see, we need to activate our faith by making up the language at first. Smith Wigglesworth, the famous healing evangelist, said that when he spoke in tongues, he started off in the flesh, but very soon the Spirit took over and flowed the language out of him. This has been my experience, and the experience of the many I have ministered to.

We don't make up a language "in faith". That is based on a misunderstanding of what faith really is. Faith is merely our belief that God's promises are true, and when we get an indication in the Spirit that a particular promise is true for us, and we are expected to depend on it, then that dependence is my faith. Then, I do something tangible on the basis of my dependence on the promise. In this case, God has promised to give me the Holy Spirit when I ask Him for it. "If an evil father knows how to give good gifts to his children, how much more does the Father know how to give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him for it?" I therefore ask, receive, and confess my belief that I am now baptised in the Spirit. Through this, I am acknowledging that I am depending on His promise.

I then start to speak in tongues on the basis of my dependence of the promises. It is not my faith that causes the tongues to flow and become fluent, it is the Holy Spirit who does that as He honours my faith and dependence on God's promise.

Now, show me how that is not entirely Scriptural. How can you prove to my that my tongue, generated at first by my active mind and dependence on God's promise to give me the Holy Spirit when I asked for it, and your tongue is genuine when presumably you received it some other way, possibly through a dependence on a sensory experience, which is actually from the flesh.

 

[RisingSpirit]

2. Ask for Him to come into your life. The way we get things from God is to ask Him. By prayer and supplication make your requests known to God. Pray out loud (confession again)
3. Receive the Holy Spirit into your life. If we pray for anything that is the will of God for us (and we established that in point 1), then He will give it to us. All we need to do is to receive it. Confess: "I now receive the Holy Spirit into my life."

Many Pentecostals are Arminian in their theology. This is a theology that says that we can have the will to accept Christ on our own, and be able to get victory over sin on our own with God helping us; that everything depends on our will to accept Christ and to walk with Him. I believe that this is a lie and not supported by Scripture.

The Scripture says we can do nothing without Christ, that we did not choose Him but He chose us, that we have the sentence of death in ourselves that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead, that we are not sufficient in ourselves but our sufficiency is in Christ.

These two contradicts themselves but thats ok since both are right and wrong at the same time. Try explaining omnipresence in human languages.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"Do you speak in tongues yourself?"

Yes - since 1973.

"If so, how did you start?"

It was at a FGBMFI meeting in the spring of '73. About a month before (at an FGBMFI Breakfast Meeting of the Sidney, Ohio Chapter), I'd been prayed for to receive the Holy Spirit, and nothing "overt" happened at all. But after dinner, we had a time of worship and praise - and as I was involved in that, an unfamiliar "Word" came into my mind - and I spoke it. And AS I spoke it more words flowed through - and I realized that I was "Speaking in tongues", and the Holy Spirit was bringing the words to me as I spoke them.

"Do you know even what faith actually is?"

Yes, and I also know what "PRESUMPTION" is. I understand the difference between FAITH based on a Word of God TO ME, and giving "Mental ascent" to the truth of something recorded in the Word.

I have no problem with some of the things you wrote, BUT your

"Therefore, I act out my belief by starting to speak in tongues. The Holy Spirit honours my faith by inspiring the words, but I have to make the effort to speak them. But how can I start speaking in tongues until I make the effort to make sounds, put them together into syllables, words and sentences?"

THIS is the popular "Priming the pump" foolishness that I've run into in Pentecostals Churches before. Variations are "speaking nonsense syllables", or "speaking random phonemes", or speaking "Baby talk" - to "Get it started". And it's simply "FAKING IT" in the hope that the Holy Spirit will "Step in" and start the real flow.

I REJECT THAT TEACHING COMPLETELY!!!

"What if Moses did not lift up his rod over the Red sea? Would the sea have parted?

Unrelated to the discussion - Moses WAS TOLD BY GOD to raise the rod, and he simply acted in obedience. This has NO CONNECTION to "Faking a tongue" in the hopes that the Spirit will show up and "Honor" your presumption.

"Didn't he do something to activate his belief in the truth of God's command?"

Nope, he simply DID what he was TOLD to do. "Activate his belief" is Word-Faith mumbo-jumbo.

I didn't activate my belief - I was in worship, and God simply supplied a language to me - which I spoke - 38 years later I still do, and HE still supplies it just like He did in the beginning.

"I made up the language because that was the only thing that I could do."

And WHY DID YOU think you "Had to do Something" when you didn't know what else to do?? That's DANGEROUS spiritual ground to be on.

"After a very short time, I was speaking a very fluent language and I lost the sense that I was making it up."

Exactly what Marjoe Gortner/Victor Wierwille teaches - you start simple, and with practice you can FAKE a very convincing tongue.

I've never had to "Make anything up", it's simply always there when I choose to speak what the Spirit Gives I do. I HAVE NEVER been burdened to speak in a tongue in a meeting, but have been burdened with both Prophecy, and Interpretation (both of which manifest the same way).

"In fact, I have had the experience of speaking in tongues, and a Maori lady spoke to me afterward and said that I had spoken in the Maori language and that God had greatly encouraged her. That does not come with a language that comes just from my own mind.

Agreed - apparently you HAVE been used in the legitimate Gift of tongues in spite of a presumptious start.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Bob,

Thanks for sharing that. Your experience of having words in your mind which you have spoken out is a great way of coming into the gift of tongues. This parallels the experience of one of the elders of the Charismatic church I went to in the 1970s.

I have a friend here who God speaks to in dreams. He reported having a dream in which some funny looking words were on a blackboard, and then he saw a ticker tape machine and coming out of it on the tape were more words in a different language. When he spoke those words, he received the gift of tongues.

Once I prayed for a young woman who, when I got her to the stage where she told the Lord, "I now receive the baptism in the Spirit, she gave a start and then started speaking a fluent, beautiful language.

I was helping a teenager once, and I went through all my "strategies" with no success. After 20 minutes, I said to the Lord, "Lord, you are the baptiser in the Holy Spirit, I give him up to You." All of a sudden he went, "Oh!" and then came right out in fluent tongues. The Lord taught me that He is the baptiser in the Spirit and although my strategies for getting people though to the baptism in the Spirit and the gift of tongues, nothing will happen until He decides to do it.

I also acknowledge that Jesus is the baptiser in the Spirit, and all my strategies are merely to increase the faith of the seeker to the point where the Lord can honour it.

"Who is Paul, Cephas, or Apollos? Just men by whom you believed". We have no power in ourselves. Our ministry is to inspire and encourage faith. Jesus has the power, and He has sent the Holy Spirit to endue us with the power to go out and build up the body of Christ and to present the Gospel to the unsaved accompanied miracles and healings to convince sinners that Jesus is really alive and that the Gospel is really true.

 

[RisingSpirit]

I have a friend here who God speaks to in dreams.

Can a person speak in Tongues in dreams?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Can a person speak in Tongues in dreams?

Yes. I have spoken in tongues while dreaming. I had a dream that I woke up and there was something dark and threatening coming up the stairs. I started speaking in a spiritual warfare tongue at it. Then I woke up and realised that it was a dream. This was a strange dream because I dreamed that I was in my own home at the top of my own stairs. It was so real I thought I was awake - until I actually woke up. There have been a couple of other occasions where I have spoken in tongues while dreaming, but I can no longer remember the details.

By the way, I don't try and put a spiritual interpretation on these dreams. I am very wary of doing that. I know that there is support in Scripture for being guided in emergency situations by dreams, but I tend to keep away from any tendency to be guided or influenced by any dreams I might have. Seeing that nine out of every ten impressions (including dreams) come from the world, flesh, or the devil, I am extra careful about them.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Exactly what Marjoe Gortner/Victor Wierwille teaches - you start simple, and with practice you can FAKE a very convincing tongue.

If a person is faking, they know that they are faking, and after a while they stop because they get convicted that what they are doing is false. But if a person approaches God in faith and speaks in faith and the Holy Spirit flows the tongue out of them, they know the difference. When someone repeats words in my tongue they know jolly well that they are merely speaking my tongue and not theirs. I am quite open and honest with them about that. But when their own language flows out of them, they cannot help but know that is the Holy Spirit because they know in themselves that there is no way that they could fake a language like that.

It is the ones who find themselves at an altar call with a crowd of people around them saying "hold on brother" and "let go brother" all at the same time, and so they go "ba ba ba ba" and think they are speaking in tongues. That's when they are faking it, most probably to get that silly group around them to shut up and let them go back to their seat.



[quoteAgreed - apparently you HAVE been used in the legitimate Gift of tongues in spite of a presumptious start.[/quote]

So you are saying that God honours presumption? How does that tie in with "If I regard iniquity in my heart, God will not hear me"?

Presumption is a grievous sin. God honours faith ("without faith it is impossible to please God"), not presumption. Therefore if my encouragement to people to use their faith and speak in tongues is presumption, God would not honour what I am doing and the person would not be able to speak in tongues other than the words I am giving them. All they would be able to do is to repeat my tongue. But the fact that when they do put all my words together and speak without stopping, a whole new language flows out, and they sense a release in the Spirit accompanied by joy and peace, and a real sense of the presence of God, proves that God actually honouring my encouragement. He would not do that if He viewed what I was doing as presumption, because presumption is one of the sins that God hates.

So, the fact that the Holy Spirit does flow out of the people I encourage means either I am operating in faith which God honours, or that God honours presumption which is a sin He loathes - and this would be right against His own principles of holiness and His Word.

I tend to believe that what I am doing is in faith, and God honours it by flowing out of people with the genuine gift of tongues, and these people know they are not faking it because the languages they speak, without the opportunity to "practice", as you say, could not be faked. This is because they are speaking fluently after just a few seconds of attempting.

Your accusation that people fake the gift of tongues goes against other of God's principles as well, but I haven't got time at the moment to examine and comment on them. Maybe later.

 

[fuegodedios]

Tongues, being the the only gift of the Spirit exclusive to the baptism in the Holy Spirit, is the only definitive evidence, initial or otherwise that a person has been baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Every other gift of the Spirit was in manifestation before the day of Pentecost, so those cannot be definitive evidence.

On a practical level, how am I supposed to know they are filled at the moment I pray for them? There is no other way to tell initially unless they speak in tongues. I have prayed for hundreds over the past 30+ years to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, and they all spoke with tongues (mainly due to the way I minister it, I cover all the stumbling blocks before I pray for them, the main one thinking that the Holy Spirit is going to overcome them and MAKE them speak) and I can count on one hand those that didn't.

So yes, tongues is the initial evidence, and also the only definitive evidence regardless of what other gifts of the Spirit one is operating in.