Tongues, a different view.

[Dave L]

As you may already know, I'm not a big fan of the Cessationist views.
(currently posted part 12 of 18 posts against them)

I always came against them but took some time to learn more about what I was opposing. I can see both sides of the issue and can fellowship with both camps.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Paul was in the third heaven and understood spiritually what his mind did not. The basis for edification is knowing what was said. So all who spoke in tongues knew what they were saying at a spiritual level even if the flesh/mind did not.

I can agree with that, but next time say so instead of waiting for me to explain it first.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I halfway agree with what the thread starter is saying about Acts chapter 2,
but I am not onboard with either the basis in 1 Corinthians 14 or the extension of
that idea in general tongue speaking or the conclusion about today.

He is basing the definition of tongues on a single verse.
What else does the Apostles, and the whole NT for that matter, say about tongues?
How else is it defined? I think someone else raised this example earlier.

1 Corinthians 13:1
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love,
I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

If by "one verse" you are speaking of 1 Corinthians 14:2 then I would agree with him. It is at the beginning of the chapter pertaining to tongues, and is the foundational verse. Everything else MUST line up with this key verse, including Acts 2. If what we think about Acts 2 contradicts 1 Corinthians 14:2, then it is we who messed up in our interpretation of events.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I always came against them but took some time to learn more about what I was opposing. I can see both sides of the issue and can fellowship with both camps.

We can fellowship with them on other issues, such as the nature of sin, but most of them even have that wrong also. I fellowship best in the long run with those who operate in the Spirit, and are hot or refreshing, but not whose who are lukewarm. I can relate to what God thinks about them.

 

[Dave L]

We can fellowship with them on other issues, such as the nature of sin, but most of them even have that wrong also. I fellowship best in the long run with those who operate in the Spirit, and are hot or refreshing, but not whose who are lukewarm. I can relate to what God thinks about them.

Here's what I learned in 48+ years as a Christian. No church or denomination has the full truth. Denominations revolve around the errors that divide them from the rest of the body of Christ. But God dispensed all of the truth throughout the body of Christ. One group might have the truth on sin and grace. Another on ethics. Another on the gifts. and so on. But we must learn from each and not stop our ears to each other if we are to grow in the knowledge of God.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Here's what I learned in 48+ years as a Christian. No church or denomination has the full truth. Denominations revolve around the errors that divide them from the rest of the body of Christ. But God dispensed all of the truth throughout the body of Christ. One group might have the truth on sin and grace. Another on ethics. Another on the gifts. and so on. But we must learn from each and not stop our ears to each other if we are to grow in the knowledge of God.

The true Christian has freedom from even the desire to sin. We cannot sin, because the seed of the Spirit is in them. Even though I don't see tongues as the evidence of being saved, I do believe freedom from sin is. And not the false doctrine of Jesus' blood just covering our sins and leaving it there, but it removes the sin nature that keeps spewing out sins. But that is a whole other topic. What I find is those who are obviously filled with the Spirit line up in both areas.

 

[Dave L]

The true Christian has freedom from even the desire to sin. We cannot sin, because the seed of the Spirit is in them. Even though I don't see tongues as the evidence of being saved, I do believe freedom from sin is. And not the false doctrine of Jesus' blood just covering our sins and leaving it there, but it removes the sin nature that keeps spewing out sins. But that is a whole other topic. What I find is those who are obviously filled with the Spirit line up in both areas.

Filled with the Spirit is the key. But not everyone filled with the Spirit speaks in tongues.

 

[Saint Steven]

Here's another passage to consider.
What do the inquirers or unbelievers in this example hear?
They wouldn't think the church was out of their mind if it was
automatically interpreted for them. Right? (which indicates that it is not)

1 Corinthians 14:23
So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues,
and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

 

[Dave L]

Here's another passage to consider.
What do the inquirers or unbelievers in this example hear?
They wouldn't think the church was out of their mind if it was
automatically interpreted for them. Right? (which indicates that it is not)

1 Corinthians 14:23
So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues,
and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

These are unbelievers without the gift of interpretation. At Pentecost the devout Jews (born again) received the gift of interpretation too.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Filled with the Spirit is the key. But not everyone filled with the Spirit speaks in tongues.

Yes, but not because they can't. Not if they are true believers. Many have been taught from birth that tongues are not for today, or are around those who have this false teaching, and that puts a seed of unbelief in them, enough to quench the operation of this ability.

There is no such thing as a Christian that is not Spirit-filled, but many do not have the second filling for the gifts and boldness, but have the Spirit for the removal of the sin nature. That trumps all the manifestations of the Spirit. But tongues (prayer language) is in the first filling, and is part of the whole armor of God. The gift of diverse kinds of tongues that is for the profit of all, and must be accompanied by the gift of interpretation is what is given in the second filling.

In Acts 2 the apostles seem to be off to the side as they explain what is happening with the 120. They already received the first filling in John 20. On the Day of Pentecost they received the second for boldness and for supernaturally proclaiming the meaning of Joel 2. The 120 who received the first on the Day of Pentecost, received the second in Acts 4.

 

[Dave L]

Yes, but not because they can't. Not if they are true believers. Many have been taught from birth that tongues are not for today, or are around those who have this false teaching, and that puts a seed of unbelief in them, enough to quench the operation of this ability.

There is no such thing as a Christian that is not Spirit-filled, but many do not have the second filling for the gifts and boldness, but have the Spirit for the removal of the sin nature. That trumps all the manifestations of the Spirit. But tongues (prayer language) is in the first filling, and is part of the whole armor of God. The gift of diverse kinds of tongues that is for the profit of all, and must be accompanied by the gift of interpretation is what is given in the second filling.

In Acts 2 the apostles seem to be off to the side as they explain what is happening with the 120. They already received the first filling in John 20. On the Day of Pentecost they received the second for boldness and for supernaturally proclaiming the meaning of Joel 2. The 120 who received the first on the Day of Pentecost, received the second in Acts 4.

Not all have the gift of tongues or any other gift mentioned according to Paul. Plus it was the 12 Apostles, not 120 on the day of Pentecost that spoke in tongues.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Not all have the gift of tongues or any other gift mentioned according to Paul. Plus it was the 12 Apostles, not 120 on the day of Pentecost that spoke in tongues.

Not according to Paul; according to Jesus when He said "16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues. And according to Paul regarding tongues, not everyone has the GIFT of diverse kinds of tongues, nor interpretation. He's not talking about our prayer language in 1 Corinthians 12.

Read both chapters one and two of Acts and you will see by the time the Day of Pentecost had come, ALL 120 were present, not just the apostles. And all spoke with tongues.

I know you like to have a unique studied approach, and I do too, but you must adhere to Scripture, and be able to shift gears if more truth comes your way, like I did. I never even thought about the angels not being able to understand tongues, so you are right - tongues is a heavenly language not understood by any living creature that ONLY God knows.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

We do not have scripture showing more than one gift of tongues. But the same gift of Tongues allowed for prayer and became a sign to the unrepentant Jews of looming judgement. And everything in between.

I didn't say it was a different gift. Anyhow, the word "gift" is misleading because it is implied that it was bestowed for the individual Christian, when the Scripture says that the "gifts" were for the body of Christ and were to be used for its benefit and not to enhance the reputation of the person using them.

What I am saying that tongues is the same facility but manifested for different purposes. Pentecost was the only time it was used as a sign for unrepentant Jews and 3000 of them repented. The other two examples in Acts were (1) to convince the Jewish Christians that Gentiles are being saved in the same way they are and did not have to comply with Mosaic Law, and (2) to show a group of John the Baptist disciples that there was a better way through Christ. So these last two examples were not to show that the Jews were under judgment at all. That would be adding stuff to the Scripture that is not there.

Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14 about tongues was to show the appropriate place to manifest it - in private before God and not in public meetings without an interpreter.

Anything else is just a blind leap of presumption to try and say things about tongues that the Scripture does not say. But we can say that tongues as described in Acts was the evidence to Peter and Paul that these folk were really filled with the Holy Spirit. So I can conclude that if a person says they are filled with the Holy Spirit and does not speak in tongues, they cannot conclusively prove that they are actually filled with the Spirit if I hold to the Acts examples. So, a person saying they are filled with the Spirit and does not provide visible and substantive evidence of it is professing something that the Scripture does not give any support for. This means that people can pretend to be filled with the Spirit when they are not.

 

[Saint Steven]

I always came against them but took some time to learn more about what I was opposing. I can see both sides of the issue and can fellowship with both camps.

Right, I'm not against Cessationists as Christian brothers and sisters, only against the teachings of Cessationism that have attempted rob us of the miracle gifts.

 

[Saint Steven]

These are unbelievers without the gift of interpretation. At Pentecost the devout Jews (born again) received the gift of interpretation too.

I don't believe the "devout Jews" at Pentecost were born again.
Three thousand of them were baptized that day.

Acts 2:38-39
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are
far off for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

 

[Saint Steven]

I saw something above about only one kind of tongues.
There are at least five different kinds of tongues.

Five Different kinds of tongues
1) Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic prayer language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)

Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests.
With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.

1 Corinthians 14:13-15
For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue
should pray that they may interpret what they say.
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

 

[Dave L]

I don't believe the "devout Jews" at Pentecost were born again.
Three thousand of them were baptized that day.

Acts 2:38-39
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are
far off for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

The New Birth produces love for God in the heart. The Lord said he would circumcise their hearts to love Him. So this is not foreign to the Old Covenant or earlier times. Abraham, Able, Job and all listed in Hebrews 11 as being faithful loved God and because they were born again.

And so were the devout Jews. They believed or else they would not have asked instructions from Peter on what to do. They were already saved, but were leaving the Old Covenant and entering the New in Acts 2:38. Jesus says "whoever believes is saved".

 

[Dave L]

Right, I'm not against Cessationists as Christian brothers and sisters, only against the teachings of Cessationism that have attempted rob us of the miracle gifts.

I don't recall any cessationists who do not believe in miracles and healing. They only say the completed NT replaces Tongues and prophecy from which much of it was written. They think if tongues and prophecy continues, scripture is still a work in process and will not be completed until the end of the world. Like I say, I can see it both ways but think we should not let it divide the body of Christ.

 

[Dave L]

I didn't say it was a different gift. Anyhow, the word "gift" is misleading because it is implied that it was bestowed for the individual Christian, when the Scripture says that the "gifts" were for the body of Christ and were to be used for its benefit and not to enhance the reputation of the person using them.

What I am saying that tongues is the same facility but manifested for different purposes. Pentecost was the only time it was used as a sign for unrepentant Jews and 3000 of them repented. The other two examples in Acts were (1) to convince the Jewish Christians that Gentiles are being saved in the same way they are and did not have to comply with Mosaic Law, and (2) to show a group of John the Baptist disciples that there was a better way through Christ. So these last two examples were not to show that the Jews were under judgment at all. That would be adding stuff to the Scripture that is not there.

Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14 about tongues was to show the appropriate place to manifest it - in private before God and not in public meetings without an interpreter.

Anything else is just a blind leap of presumption to try and say things about tongues that the Scripture does not say. But we can say that tongues as described in Acts was the evidence to Peter and Paul that these folk were really filled with the Holy Spirit. So I can conclude that if a person says they are filled with the Holy Spirit and does not speak in tongues, they cannot conclusively prove that they are actually filled with the Spirit if I hold to the Acts examples. So, a person saying they are filled with the Spirit and does not provide visible and substantive evidence of it is professing something that the Scripture does not give any support for. This means that people can pretend to be filled with the Spirit when they are not.

I think most of the Jews were born-again and already saved. Jesus says whoever believes is saved. The Jews were abandoning the Old Covenant and entering the New. Had they not already believed, they would not have asked Peter what they should do.

 

[Dave L]

Not according to Paul; according to Jesus when He said "16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues. And according to Paul regarding tongues, not everyone has the GIFT of diverse kinds of tongues, nor interpretation. He's not talking about our prayer language in 1 Corinthians 12.

Read both chapters one and two of Acts and you will see by the time the Day of Pentecost had come, ALL 120 were present, not just the apostles. And all spoke with tongues.

I know you like to have a unique studied approach, and I do too, but you must adhere to Scripture, and be able to shift gears if more truth comes your way, like I did. I never even thought about the angels not being able to understand tongues, so you are right - tongues is a heavenly language not understood by any living creature that ONLY God knows.

Paul does not distinguish between tongues the way you do. He simply says all do not have the gift.

Only the Apostles were baptized in the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. Here's why:

“In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty people) and said,” (Acts 1:15)

“Now when the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.” (Acts 2:1)

*They were the Apostles in the preceding verse.



“But Peter stood up with the eleven, raised his voice, and addressed them: “You men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, know this and listen carefully to what I say. In spite of what you think, these men are not drunk, for it is only nine o’clock in the morning.” (Acts 2:14–15)