Tongues, a different view.

[Saint Steven]

No, we should return to the beginning premise. (the point of the discussion)

I don't mind exploring a new insight into the scriptures.
But what we have ended up with here is a house of cards for supporting evidence.
- Faith is a fruit of the Spirit?
- At what point is a person "a believer"? (hair-splitting)
- Devout Jews being born-again. (by virtue of Judaism)
And on and on it goes. Common spiritual knowledge is swept aside with each probing question and reply.

And I agree that there should be debate and discussion on this. No problem there.
But at what point does one concede a point?

What are we left with?
A very unorthodox view that brings no value that I can discern for today, other than to begin to side with the Cessationists who claim the miracle gifts stopped operating when the Apostles died.

Have I missed something important here?

I'm trying to imagine the bewildered tongues speaker in the early church that choked on their own utterance as the last Apostle gave up the ghost. Has it come to this?

 

[Dave L]

No, we should return to the beginning premise. (the point of the discussion)

I don't mind exploring a new insight into the scriptures.
But what we have ended up with here is a house of cards for supporting evidence.
- Faith is a fruit of the Spirit?
- At what point is a person "a believer"? (hair-splitting)
And on and on it goes. Common spiritual knowledge is swept aside with each probing question and reply.

And I agree that there should be debate and discussion on this. No problem there.
But at what point does one concede a point?

What are we left with?
A very unorthodox view that brings no value that I can discern for today, other than to begin to side with the Cessationists who claim the miracle gifts stopped operating when the Apostles died.

Have I missed something important here?

I'm trying to imagine the bewildered tongues speaker in the early church that choked on their own utterance as the last Apostle gave up the ghost. Has it come to this?

It would be good to look at one point at a time. As far as faith, read my synopsis in the WOF forum for my view. It enables you to believe in the unseen just as your eyes enable you to see and believe physical objects exist. So faith (faithfulness) is a result of the Holy Spirit bearing witness with our spirit. It is not blind in the least.

 

[1stcenturylady]

We began talking about the devout Jews who were born again as seen in their faith.

I think we agree that they received the gift of interpretation of tongues.

 

[Saint Steven]

It would be good to look at one point at a time. As far as faith, read my synopsis in the WOF forum for my view. It enables you to believe in the unseen just as your eyes enable you to see and believe physical objects exist. So faith (faithfulness) is a result of the Holy Spirit bearing witness with our spirit. It is not blind in the least.

Now this is exactly what I mean.
Here you have conveniently redefined "faith" as faithfulness. Say what?

But please, continue addressing each point. Thanks.

 

[Dave L]

Now this is exactly what I mean.
Here you have conveniently redefined "faith" as faithfulness. Say what?

But please, continue addressing each point. Thanks.

They translate pistis (faith) both ways.

 

[Saint Steven]

I think we agree that they received the gift of interpretation of tongues.

Actually, I think Acts 2 says that is not the case.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Acts 2:4
All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The tongues-speakers did not speak in a single tongue (a heavenly language), but rather in other tongues (plural).

 

[Saint Steven]

They translate pistis (faith) both ways.

And now you help to confirm my point again by not conceding the point.
Obviously having faith and being faithful are two completely different things.
But you will argue against that point as well, right?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Actually, I think Acts 2 says that is not the case.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Acts 2:4
All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The tongues-speakers did not speak in a single tongue (a heavenly language), but rather in other tongues (plural).

What you are not seeing is that EACH devout Jew heard ALL of them in their own language. You are still in first gear - switch gears to the hearing. It would be like a group of three speaking in French, German and Russian, respectively, but hearing THEM all speaking English. That would be interpretation of tongues.

Your misreading of the passage is why Cessationists believe tongues is for preaching, and has died once the manual on tongues and everything else in our New Covenant was published.

The point is that tongues is not understood by man, whether those speaking are speaking an ancient tongue on earth, or a new one from heaven.

 

[Saint Steven]

What you are not seeing is that EACH devout Jew heard ALL of them in their own language. You are still in first gear - switch gears to the hearing. It would be like a group of three speaking in French, German and Russian, respectively, but I hearing THEM all speaking English. That would be interpretation of tongues.

Your misreading of the passage is why Cessationists believe tongues is for preaching, and has died once the manual on tongues and everything else in our New Covenant was published.

The point is that tongues is not understood by man, whether those speaking are speaking an ancient tongue on earth, or a new one from heaven.

I'm not getting that from the reading.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Acts 2:6-12
When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment,
because each one heard their own language being spoken.
7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans?
8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?
9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, J
udea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya
near Cyrene; visitors from Rome
11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—
we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”
12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The hearers were hearing all the different languages. Not only their own.

 

[1stcenturylady]

8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?

Look at what you didn't highlight - HEARS THEM

You are still grinding away in first gear and concentrating on only the speaking - which is always unknown.

 

[Saint Steven]

Look at what you didn't highlight - HEARS THEM

You are still grinding away in first gear and concentrating on only the speaking - which is always unknown.

Nope.
It's pretty simple.
Each individual heard them speak in all the individual languages.
They couldn't say this if each individual only heard them in their own individual language.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
11 … we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” (plural)

 

[1stcenturylady]

Nope.
It's pretty simple.
Each individual heard them speak in all the individual languages.
They couldn't say this if each individual only heard them in their own individual language.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
11 … we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” (plural)

You missed it again with your preconceived idea that the hearing had nothing to do with it. Don't you get it? The hearing was supernatural as well as the speaking.

 

[Saint Steven]

You missed it again with your preconceived idea that the hearing had nothing to do with it. Don't you get it? The hearing was supernatural as well as the speaking.

Explain how you came to that conclusion. Thanks.
(I understand that the speaking was supernatural)

Imagine if I was visiting a Christian church in China.
Let's say that no one there spoke English, only Chinese.
As the worship service was under way, I could hear people speaking in tongues.
To my amazement I could here someone speaking in English, an unknown tongue for them.
Even more amazing was the message was for me personally.
Are you claiming that my hearing of that message would be supernatural, or natural?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Explain how you came to that conclusion. Thanks.
(I understand that the speaking was supernatural)

Imagine if I was visiting a Christian church in China.
Let's say that no one there spoke English, only Chinese.
As the worship service was under way, I could hear people speaking in tongues.
To my amazement I could here someone speaking in English, an unknown tongue for them.
Even more amazing was the message was for me personally.
Are you claiming that my hearing of that message would be supernatural, or natural?

No one understands tongues naturally according to 1 Corinthians 14:2. When you accept that scripture as truth and the foundational rule, you can clearly see that those in Acts 2 could ONLY understand supernaturally, as "No man understands."

Now switch gears to the HEARING THEM. They heard all of them speaking their own individual language. And as they conversed among themselves, they found others heard in their own language. Wow! What's going on with these uneducated Galileans.

6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

In other words, I speak English, and heard all of them speaking English.

The guy next to me speaks Spanish, and heard of the time speaking Spanish.

Now read the whole passage and read with new eyes.

 

[Saint Steven]

No one understands tongues naturally according to 1 Corinthians 14:2. When you accept that scripture as truth and the foundational rule, you can clearly see that those in Acts 2 could ONLY understand supernaturally, as "No man understands."

Now switch gears to the HEARING THEM. They heard all of them speaking their own individual language. And as they conversed among themselves, they found others heard in their own language. Wow! What's going on with these uneducated Galileans.

6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

In other words, I speak English, and heard all of them speaking English.

The guy next to me speaks Spanish, and heard of the time speaking Spanish.

Now read the whole passage and read with new eyes.

Thanks for taking the time to calmly explain your position fully. I appreciate the effort.

However, you fell short of convincing me.
I would be happy to explain why that is, if you would like me to.
If you are confident in your position and want no further discussion,
or this is just getting wearisome, that's fine, then let's drop it.
But if you need to vent your anger by belittling me some more, have at it.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Thanks for taking the time to calmly explain your position fully. I appreciate the effort.

However, you fell short of convincing me.
I would be happy to explain why that is, if you would like me to.
If you are confident in your position and want no further discussion,
or this is just getting wearisome, that's fine, then let's drop it.
But if you need to vent your anger by belittling me some more, have at it.

Fine, as long as you do not contradict 1 Corinthians 14:2. That is what most people do - they disregard the rule, in favor of their interpretation of a story.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Explain how you came to that conclusion. Thanks.
(I understand that the speaking was supernatural)

Imagine if I was visiting a Christian church in China.
Let's say that no one there spoke English, only Chinese.
As the worship service was under way, I could hear people speaking in tongues.
To my amazement I could here someone speaking in English, an unknown tongue for them.
Even more amazing was the message was for me personally.
Are you claiming that my hearing of that message would be supernatural, or natural?

Your hearing would have been supernatural, yes. That happened in Arizona at an AoG church I went to. People were praying in tongues over a high school student and what she HEARD was English. That is how the gift of interpretation of tongues works. You hear tongues in your own language in order for you to give the interpretation.

 

[Saint Steven]

Fine, as long as you do not contradict 1 Corinthians 14:2. That is what most people do - they disregard the rule, in favor of their interpretation of a story.

I'm happy to interpret what happened in Acts chapter two in light of the whole of first Corinthians chapter fourteen. Which would naturally include verse two. I always have.

I expected more of a fight on this. Why did you give up so easily?
As far as I know, there is no solid scriptural basis for this "supernatural hearing" theory.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

On the other hand, I don't put the Holy Spirit in a box. Anything could happen, within reason. For instance the outpouring came in many different ways to different people.
- Acts chapter two was one way. (Pentecost)
- Peter at Cornelius' house was another way. (tongues before baptism)
- The disciples of John the Baptist in Acts 19. (rebaptized and filled)

 

[Saint Steven]

Your hearing would have been supernatural, yes. That happened in Arizona at an AoG church I went to. People were praying in tongues over a high school student and what she HEARD was English. That is how the gift of interpretation of tongues works. You hear tongues in your own language in order for you to give the interpretation.

That's news to me.
How do you know it is tongues if you hear it in English?

I would like to hear from others who manifest the gift of the interpretation of tongues.
Your example is an isolated case. That doesn't make it precedent.

I don't manifest the gift of interpretation, nor has anyone explained to me what they experience, so I'll have to make note of what you are saying and keep an eye out for more. I don't see a solid case here. If you have more evidence, please bring it.

 

[1stcenturylady]

That's news to me.
How do you know it is tongues if you hear it in English?

I would like to hear from others who manifest the gift of the interpretation of tongues.
Your example is an isolated case. That doesn't make it precedent.

I don't manifest the gift of interpretation, nor has anyone explained to me what they experience, so I'll have to make note of what you are saying and keep an eye out for more. I don't see a solid case here. If you have more evidence, please bring it.

Look at the counterfeit. Haven't you heard of skeptics coming into a Pentecostal church, hearing tongues and then the interpretation, and them saying they know the language of the tongues, and the interpretation given was wrong. What they HEARD was blasphemy. The tongues wasn't blasphemy, the counterfeit interpretation of tongues by the skeptic was of the devil.

I have asked a pastor who interprets what he hears. He hears tongues and it turns into English. The same service, a woman was in the audience to understood Zulu. Neither was the language of the tongues, but what they HEARD was the interpretation in a language they understood, and they matched.