Tom Homan Fires Back at Pope Francis for Calling Mass Deportations a ‘Disgrace’

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

The Holy Family fled to Egypt as refugees. Imagine if Trump had been Pharaoh guarding the gates. Salvation derailed!
I understand that there is rampant disinformation about immigrants. Statistically they commit fewer crimes than the general population.
The current president campaigned on hate and fear, of LGBTQ and immigrants. The typical immigrants are young marrieds with slightly more children than the rest of us. Churchgoing--that's a historic and current trait of immigrants.
Yes, there are bad immigrants--and bad native-born Americans.
In the same vein, lots of LGBTQ are parents, workers, professionals. My cousin's son adopted twin boys with his partner. They are loved and enjoying a happy secure childhood.
I don't decide who is good or bad based on the fear-mongering of political candidates. I learn for myself, through relationships with diverse friends.
Immigrants are almost all good people with bad options in untenable situations.
Like my grandparents...or yours.

I mentioned in another forum that Jesus was an undocumented immigrant in Egypt. Many Christians were offended by my post.

 

[Fantine]

I mentioned in another forum that Jesus was an undocumented immigrant in Egypt. Many Christians were offended by my post.

If they were offended by the idea that refugees need compassion, they are Christians in name only.

 

[Fantine]

As I am not Catholic, I do not place significant emphasis on the statements or actions of any pope.

However, it appears that many Catholics currently disregard the statements or actions of the Pope, which is noteworthy.

There are Catholics who wish Pope Benedict was still Pope. Pope Francis is failing, but since he has changed the composition of the College of Cardinals to compassionate, environmentally conscious, inclusive progressives they will see a new Pope who is more like the current one.

 

[chevyontheriver]

As I am not Catholic, I do not place significant emphasis on the statements or actions of any pope.

My point there was that the pope is responsible for the laws in Vatican City and they have zero tolerance for illegal entry, for illegal immigrants, undocumented aliens and the like. Whether you do or don't place significant emphasis on what the pope says or does, he does one thing and says another with respect to border security.

However, it appears that many Catholics currently disregard the statements or actions of the Pope, which is noteworthy.

We, as Catholics, have to give the pope his due, but that is when he is speaking in his professional capacity as pope in areas of faith or morals. Outside of that he has no particular charism or expertise. When he speaks about the weather or about politics his opinion is as good or bad as anyone else. We can prudently disagree with the pope even on the 'how to' of accomplishing moral requirements. We have to balance the moral requirement of having secure borders with the moral requirement of assisting refugees. The pope can have his opinion about how to achieve that and we can all have our opinions too. Sometimes this pope forgets that he's expressing just his own personal opinions. And when he does, he's subject to pushback like anyone else.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

My point there was that the pope is responsible for the laws in Vatican City and they have zero tolerance for illegal entry, for illegal immigrants, undocumented aliens and the like. Whether you do or don't place significant emphasis on what the pope says or does, he does one thing and says another with respect to border security.

We, as Catholics, have to give the pope his due, but that is when he is speaking in his professional capacity as pope in areas of faith or morals. Outside of that he has no particular charism or expertise. When he speaks about the weather or about politics his opinion is as good or bad as anyone else. We can prudently disagree with the pope even on the 'how to' of accomplishing moral requirements. We have to balance the moral requirement of having secure borders with the moral requirement of assisting refugees. The pope can have his opinion about how to achieve that and we can all have our opinions too. Sometimes this pope forgets that he's expressing just his own personal opinions. And when he does, he's subject to pushback like anyone else.

Correct me if I am wrong, Catholic teachings state that the Pope is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church and the successor of St. Peter. They believe that the Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit and is infallible when teaching about faith and morals.

Papal infallibility is a fundamental doctrine of the Papacy.

Here you are questioning the Pope's teachings or believe he is a hypocrite, saying one thing but doing another, or discussing matters he shouldn't. if you are correct then Pope is infallible in his teaching and entire doctrine of Papal infallibility is in question.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Correct me if I am wrong, Catholic teachings state that the Pope is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church and the successor of St. Peter. They believe that the Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit and is infallible when teaching about faith and morals.

Yes, when teaching 'from the chair' in matters of faith and morals. Not when providing an off the cuff opinion. Not when pontificating on geology or economics.

Papal infallibility is a fundamental doctrine of the Papacy.

It is a fundamental doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Here you are questioning the Pope's teachings or believe he is a hypocrite, saying one thing but doing another, or discussing matters he shouldn't. if you are correct then Pope is infallible in his teaching and entire doctrine of Papal infallibility is in question.

No. Popes can be sinners. There is no presumption of impeccability for a pope. We don't think they are protected from being hypocrites or from being any other sort of sinner. Infallibility is a very limited thing that protects popes from error in a very narrow band. The pope would be right to say we must protect refugees. He would also be correct to say nations have a right to secure borders, as he has adjusted the laws of the Vatican City laws. He has no particular expertise in forming a prudential judgement as to HOW respect for refugees works with secure borders. His criticisms are his own fallible opinions in this regard and he's playing politics. He can be criticized for his political criticism that went beyond the scope of Catholic social teaching. Popes have 'a lane' and they should try to stay in it. This pope has a habit of weaving around when driving down the road.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Yes, when teaching 'from the chair' in matters of faith and morals. Not when providing an off the cuff opinion. Not when pontificating on geology or economics.

It is a fundamental doctrine of the Catholic Church.

No. Popes can be sinners. There is no presumption of impeccability for a pope. We don't think they are protected from being hypocrites or from being any other sort of sinner. Infallibility is a very limited thing that protects popes from error in a very narrow band. The pope would be right to say we must protect refugees. He would also be correct to say nations have a right to secure borders, as he has adjusted the laws of the Vatican City laws. He has no particular expertise in forming a prudential judgement as to HOW respect for refugees works with secure borders. His criticisms are his own fallible opinions in this regard and he's playing politics. He can be criticized for his political criticism that went beyond the scope of Catholic social teaching. Popes have 'a lane' and they should try to stay in it. This pope has a habit of weaving around when driving down the road.

If you believe the Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit and his teachings are infallible, how can you be sure his statements about refugees are not from the Holy Spirit?

If a layperson like myself can determine which statements from the Pope are infallible and which are not, then the entire concept of the papacy becomes irrelevant.

 

[chevyontheriver]

If you believe the Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit and his teachings are infallible, how can you be sure his statements about refugees are not from the Holy Spirit?

Not all things a pope says are infallible. Infallibility extends to a specific set of statements, and most popes will never utter a new infallible statement in their lives. IF he speaks about the need to protect refugees in general, he would be reiterating something the Catholic Church has already spoken about. However, the practical matter of how to implement that teaching is his opinion only

If a layperson like myself can determine which statements from the Pope are infallible and which are not, then the entire concept of the papacy becomes irrelevant.

Are you saying that all of what pope Francis has said about immigration is infallible? Can you explain your words?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Not all things a pope says are infallible. Infallibility extends to a specific set of statements, and most popes will never utter a new infallible statement in their lives. IF he speaks about the need to protect refugees in general, he would be reiterating something the Catholic Church has already spoken about. However, the practical matter of how to implement that teaching is his opinion only

Are you saying that all of what pope Francis has said about immigration is infallible? Can you explain your words?

As a Protestant Christians I do not believe that the Pope is infallible or that his teachings are without error. As a Protestant Christians I hold the belief that every Christian can be guided by the Holy Spirit and thus do not rely on the teachings of the Pope or any other individual. Protestant Christians believe they have direct access to God and His teachings without the need for an intermediary.

I do not believe that Pope Francis's statements about immigration, or any other subject related to the Bible or outside of it, are infallible. Every human is fallible and capable of making mistakes, including Pope Francis.


The doctrine of Papal infallibility does not allow laypeople, like myself if I were Catholic, to determine when a pope is fallible.

It has become apparent that some Catholics today selectively apply the doctrine of Papal infallibility according to their personal or political beliefs. Liberal Catholics may view Pope Francis as fallible when they disagree with his teachings on issues such as celibacy, communion, homosexuality, or the ordination of only unmarried men. On the other hand, conservative Catholics might consider Pope Francis fallible when it comes to his teachings on climate change or immigration.

If lay Catholics can determine when the Pope is fallible, it challenges the relevance of the Pope's authority.

 

[Richard T]

The pope publicly threw himself into the controversy.
Homan was just responding back, with truth.

I did not see it at all as an 'attack' against the Catholic Church.
But a criticism of this pope's current leadership of the Church? Yes.

How does that saying go? "People living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."
The pope is throwing stones, while living in a glass house ... and that was Homan's point.
I had no problem with Homan making it.

This pope likes to play 'hardball' against his perceived adversaries with media comments.
With this new administration, he's gonna get the ball thrown back at him just as 'hard' ...
because the future of America is at stake now.

The Pope was speaking personally or for the Catholic church in general? It is the latter I believe. Homan too, was it personal or for the US government? Again the latter. Both were abusing their position. So now the US government is in an adversarial position with the Catholic church spokesman when it was not really necessary. I imagine the Pope could point out all the past sins of America, many might think that is just, after all he is only responding to Homan. But that is not the way of Christ. It is the way of a couple that in bickering brings up every worse sin they can think of. The result is a hardened heart and the judgment of God. My whole point is it is not who is right, but rather how everyone is judging and with that comes a big negative for all involved.

 

[chevyontheriver]

As a Protestant Christians I do not believe that the Pope is infallible or that his teachings are without error. As a Protestant Christians I hold the belief that every Christian can be guided by the Holy Spirit and thus do not rely on the teachings of the Pope or any other individual. Protestant Christians believe they have direct access to God and His teachings without the need for an intermediary.

I do not believe that Pope Francis's statements about immigration, or any other subject related to the Bible or outside of it, are infallible. Every human is fallible and capable of making mistakes, including Pope Francis.


The doctrine of Papal infallibility does not allow laypeople, like myself if I were Catholic, to determine when a pope is fallible.

It has become apparent that some Catholics today selectively apply the doctrine of Papal infallibility according to their personal or political beliefs. Liberal Catholics may view Pope Francis as fallible when they disagree with his teachings on issues such as celibacy, communion, homosexuality, or the ordination of only unmarried men. On the other hand, conservative Catholics might consider Pope Francis fallible when it comes to his teachings on climate change or immigration.

If lay Catholics can determine when the Pope is fallible, it challenges the relevance of the Pope's authority.

Sorry but you seem to lack an understanding of how papal infallibility is and always has been a limited thing. Never have we thought that everything a pope says is infallible.

 

[Richard T]

So when you do lock your doors, you do so because you don't want unwanted people from just entering freely.

The same goes for our nation. Those who come across the border are entering illegally and need to be deported.

In general I agree but there are some exceptions that I hope most can agree on. For instance, a Jew fleeing Germany in WWII era should be sent back? Many actually did die because the USA turned them down. Others fled to South American nations that took in more refugees. In modern times too there are bona fide refugees. In such cases their border crossing is not illegal.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Sorry but you seem to lack an understanding of how papal infallibility is and always has been a limited thing. Never have we thought that everything a pope says is infallible.

I may not fully understand the doctrine of papal infallibility, but it is evident that some members of the Catholic community view the Pope as infallible when his views align with their political ideologies. Conversely, they regard the Pope as fallible when they disagree with him. This demonstrates how political beliefs can influence perceptions of papal authority among certain Catholics.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

In general I agree but there are some exceptions that I hope most can agree on. For instance, a Jew fleeing Germany in WWII era should be sent back? Many actually did die because the USA turned them down. Others fled to South American nations that took in more refugees. In modern times too there are bona fide refugees. In such cases their border crossing is not illegal.

Jews fleeing Germany were fleeing death.

FYI as far as allowing Jews into the US, FDR expanded the quota by 5000 people. However, to go beyond that meant he would've
had to break the law, which he was not going to do. Keep in mind we didn't know how bad things would get for Jews in Europe at
that time.

Illegal immigrants broke into the country, mostly for economic reason or they were fleeing laws in their own country because
of laws they broke. Some were fleeing violence as the case of many Haitians. In this case, the reason to provide them with
asylum is justified. However, we have illegals coming in from the Middle East, from China and other parts of Asia. They
should be deported.


Currently the current wave of deportations is those who broke the law here or back in their country.

What comes next is yet to be seen as lawsuits including in the blue states are now seeking to halt all deportations.

Most likely its going to the US Supreme Court. However, stopping the border crossings is the first step in correcting
the situation.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I may not fully understand the doctrine of papal infallibility, but it is evident that some members of the Catholic community view the Pope as infallible when his views align with their political ideologies. Conversely, they regard the Pope as fallible when they disagree with him. This demonstrates how political beliefs can influence perceptions of papal authority among certain Catholics.

The Pope is only infallible when speaking ex cathedra within the council of Bishops.

The Pope is not infallible when just giving an opinion.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Help me to understand.

What I hear you saying is that an American Catholic has to decide whether to obey the rules of the country, or obey the pope.

Is that how it is for Catholics in America? Is that why there has always been concern about Catholics getting into government positions ... the fear that those Catholics in government will obey the pope rather than the laws of the country?

Applying that logic, then I can see why the pope and Biden got along so well during his presidency, and why those Catholics obeying the pope would have seen Biden as a good president. Biden was running immigration according to Catholic belief (in obedience to the pope), and not according to the laws of America.

... and if all that is so, then I can see how you would see Tom Homan as a cafeteria Catholic, because he is not obeying the pope.

Yes, I think this is why it's a panic about Catholics getting into office because our nation and it's laws are meaningless.

They will learn this is not the popes house, it's the King's. It's even on our money - In God we trust.

We have to say no to slavery, the illegal drug trade and sex and human trafficking. It's anti-Christ and hurts real people. It's time to get the country back from this insanity.

God knows only knows why they encourage the conditions for such horror, but we aren't born to allow it in our land .We are supposed to be a light, not death.

 

[Michie]

Correct me if I am wrong, Catholic teachings state that the Pope is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church and the successor of St. Peter. They believe that the Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit and is infallible when teaching about faith and morals.

Papal infallibility is a fundamental doctrine of the Papacy.

Here you are questioning the Pope's teachings or believe he is a hypocrite, saying one thing but doing another, or discussing matters he shouldn't. if you are correct then Pope is infallible in his teaching and entire doctrine of Papal infallibility is in question.

He is only infallible when he speaks ex-cathedra

Sorry but you seem to lack an understanding of how papal infallibility is and always has been a limited thing. Never have we thought that everything a pope says is infallible.

Yep. Oh well.

 

[Richard T]

Jews fleeing Germany were fleeing death.

FYI as far as allowing Jews into the US, FDR expanded the quota by 5000 people. However, to go beyond that meant he would've
had to break the law, which he was not going to do. Keep in mind we didn't know how bad things would get for Jews in Europe at
that time.

Illegal immigrants broke into the country, mostly for economic reason or they were fleeing laws in their own country because
of laws they broke. Some were fleeing violence as the case of many Haitians. In this case, the reason to provide them with
asylum is justified. However, we have illegals coming in from the Middle East, from China and other parts of Asia. They
should be deported.


Currently the current wave of deportations is those who broke the law here or back in their country.

What comes next is yet to be seen as lawsuits including in the blue states are now seeking to halt all deportations.

Most likely its going to the US Supreme Court. However, stopping the border crossings is the first step in correcting
the situation.

Yes, like any program it is hard to separate the good from the bad when granting asylum. Under Biden most would lawyer up and await court dates. Trump, I think makes them wait in Mexico.

 

[mourningdove~]

Yes, I think this is why it's a panic about Catholics getting into office because our nation and it's laws are meaningless.

They will learn this is not the popes house, it's the King's. It's even on our money - In God we trust.

I've come to learn that there is no 'one' kind of Catholic. It is even interesting now, to learn that Tom Homan is a Catholic, as is JD Vance, and others Trump has appointed. And clearly, Homan does not see things the way that this current pope does. Does that make him a 'bad' or 'cafeteria' Catholic? Not in my eyes does it, but I can see now how some Catholics might see it that way.

Until this conversation, I truly did not realize that some American Catholics might find it difficult to follow, or agree with, the laws of our country because a pope does not agree with them. So it's been very enlightening to me, because I've been aware of prejudice towards Catholics all my life, and really not understood it when it comes to things political. Now I better do.

I really like that Tom Homan is running the immigration show; he appears to be a man of integrity and good sense, as do many of the other Catholics that President Trump has appointed. I'm personally grateful to see moral sanity, and common sense, return to the White House even if the current pope disapproves.

 

[Hazelelponi]

...

I've come to learn that there is no 'one' kind of Catholic. It is even interesting now, to learn that Tom Homan is a Catholic, as is JD Vance, and others Trump has appointed. And clearly, Homan does not see things the way that this current pope does. Does that make him a 'bad' or 'cafeteria' Catholic? Not in my eyes does it, but I can see now how some Catholics might see it that way.

Until this conversation, I truly did not realize that some American Catholics might find it difficult to follow, or agree with, the laws of our country because a pope does not agree with them. So it's been very enlightening to me, because I've been aware of prejudice towards Catholics all my life, and really not understood it when it comes to things political. Now I better do.

I really like that Tom Homan is running the immigration show; he appears to be a very moral man as do many of the other Catholics that President Trump has appointed. I'm personally grateful to see moral sanity, and common sense, return to the White House even if the current pope disapproves.

I really like and support Homan too, he's one of my favorites.

I'm definitely grateful to God for the blessings He bestows upon us daily. I too enjoy a return to common sense!