Understood. By the way, forgive me please Father. I see how my post sounded and I didn't mean to imply anything about you. I'm just thankful that I don't have to try to sort people out in any situation.I don't doubt their sincerity at all, it's just drawing a conclusion that isn't in the actual account.
Understood. By the way, forgive me please Father. I see how my post sounded and I didn't mean to imply anything about you. I'm just thankful that I don't have to try to sort people out in any situation.
Do you really find it condescending?
I read it when I read the book, and again just now. It seems Fr Seraphim wants to be precisely understood. But I don't get any sense of condescension?
(Unless you mean the quote from St. Theophan that it doesn't matter whether people believe in tollhouses or not - they still will go through them. If so well ... it's just another statement that our beliefs don't create reality. What is real is real, whether we believe in it or not. But I still think it is a too-literal, too-material interpretation that stands in people's way. And they are right to reject that, IMO.)
Forgive me for jumping in. I was just surprised by your impression and had a moment to read the excerpt again. Thank you for sharing it.
People who believe in the toll houses are usually considered "far extremist zealots who believe in a legalistic and gnostic view of salvation" and "almost schismatics". So it is not only one side being criticized.I think this view ( of the letter I linked) lumps us toll skeptics into being “modernists”, “rationalists”, “immature” etc. Does such an expression really want laity to read the Bible and try, in some way, to spread the Gospel? I volunteer a fair amount of janitor work at our parish. Our priest is a good, faithful old school guy. I wrote down note cards with a basic approach to faith as the Lord presented in Matthew 6:1-18 alongside the basic commands (Matthew 22:36-40, Matthew 19:16-19 etc.) ( as outlined in the Didache) to insert into dollar store Bibles I bought to put in our narthex with our priest’s approval.i guess I forgot about the toll houses though.
Forgive me - if that's in the letter I must have missed it.I think this view ( of the letter I linked) lumps us toll skeptics into being “modernists”, “rationalists”, “immature” etc. Does such an expression really want laity to read the Bible and try, in some way, to spread the Gospel? I volunteer a fair amount of janitor work at our parish. Our priest is a good, faithful old school guy. I wrote down note cards with a basic approach to faith as the Lord presented in Matthew 6:1-18 alongside the basic commands (Matthew 22:36-40, Matthew 19:16-19 etc.) ( as outlined in the Didache) to insert into dollar store Bibles I bought to put in our narthex with our priest’s approval.i guess I forgot about the toll houses though.
I'm starting to think there is so much talking past each other it might not be profitable to discuss anymore.People who believe in the toll houses are usually considered "far extremist zealots who believe in a legalistic and gnostic view of salvation" and "almost schismatics". So it is not only one side being criticized.
I'm not someone who cares that much if someone believes in the toll houses or not. Nevertheless, no one is going to like his belief being called "heretic and gnostic"I'm starting to think there is so much talking past each other it might not be profitable to discuss anymore.
I'm speaking of people who profess such opinions - not directing it at you. It's sad because both sides tend to believe the same thing and not everyone realizes it.
Understood. By the way, forgive me please Father. I see how my post sounded and I didn't mean to imply anything about you. I'm just thankful that I don't have to try to sort people out in any situation.
All who get to Heaven are saints.My friend you came to the wrong place to ask such a question and that's the internet.
This so called doctrine has become too popular in this past decade or so. It's not a dogma nor it is even a doctrine. It's just a belief that when you die you pass through these houses filled with demons that accuse you of the sins you have done in your life while angels defend you. If you fail to pass even one toll house you get dragged down to hell by the demons.
Since when did angels and especially demons have power of your soul? When did angels and demons become judges? Demons can't accuse you of sin, they never tell the truth, NEVER. Let's assume that you truly pass through these toll houses after death. You'll get accused with every lie the demons can think of, not the sins you've committed in your previous life. And then the angels defend you from every lie told by the demons. It's just a bunch of phoney baloney.
This belief propagated by the propagators who believe in this, eliminates all hope of salvation after death, because it insists that you become a saint in order to be saved, in order to pass through these houses. Every person has the potential to become a saint, but not everyone can become saint. Just like the tree has the potential to become a chair, but not every tree can become a chair, it could become a table or anything that's made out of tree. It's the same with a person.
What the propagators don't understand about these "toll houses" is that they're a metaphor. They mix this belief with what the desert fathers were saying and that's the passions.
The very roots of this teaching is gnostic and even worse pagan (egyptian afterlife). Because it has entered the church somewhere in the 3rd century. The early heresies all came from the east, not from the west. It's best if you find an orthodox christian who studied philosophy and also knows theology. It's there where your answer lies.
"One of the most powerful Scriptural arguments against the toll-house theory is the fact that there is simply no direct nor indirect mention of them in all of Scripture. As Fr. Paul O'Callaghan states: "No indication of the existence of the toll-houses can be found in the Scriptures. In fact, it would not be enough to simply say that such teaching is omitted. Rather, the theory of the toll-houses militates against the very nature of Christian hope for the afterlife. One cannot maintain the apostolic attitude of joyous anticipation of being 'with the Lord' in the prospect of standing trial before the 'rulers of wickedness in high places.' Christians are concerned with standing before the judgment seat of Christ… But by no means does the Bible suggest that we will be tried by fallen angels."
“We ought not to fear the demons or even Satan himself, for he is a liar and speaks not a word of truth…and with him are placed the demons, his fellows, like serpents and scorpions to be trodden underfoot by us Christians.” The Life of Saint Anthony
“But if the demons had power not even against the swine, much less have they any over men formed in the image of God. So then we ought to fear God only, and despise the demons, and be in no fear of them.” The Life of Saint Anthony
“For if while the soul dwells in the body the devil cannot bring violence about it, clearly when it departs from the body, he likewise has no power over it.” St. John Chrysostom (Homily on Lazarus II)
are you aware that Elder Cleopa believed in the toll houses?My friend you came to the wrong place to ask such a question and that's the internet.
This so called doctrine has become too popular in this past decade or so. It's not a dogma nor it is even a doctrine. It's just a belief that when you die you pass through these houses filled with demons that accuse you of the sins you have done in your life while angels defend you. If you fail to pass even one toll house you get dragged down to hell by the demons.
Since when did angels and especially demons have power of your soul? When did angels and demons become judges? Demons can't accuse you of sin, they never tell the truth, NEVER. Let's assume that you truly pass through these toll houses after death. You'll get accused with every lie the demons can think of, not the sins you've committed in your previous life. And then the angels defend you from every lie told by the demons. It's just a bunch of phoney baloney.
This belief propagated by the propagators who believe in this, eliminates all hope of salvation after death, because it insists that you become a saint in order to be saved, in order to pass through these houses. Every person has the potential to become a saint, but not everyone can become saint. Just like the tree has the potential to become a chair, but not every tree can become a chair, it could become a table or anything that's made out of tree. It's the same with a person.
What the propagators don't understand about these "toll houses" is that they're a metaphor. They mix this belief with what the desert fathers were saying and that's the passions.
The very roots of this teaching is gnostic and even worse pagan (egyptian afterlife). Because it has entered the church somewhere in the 3rd century. The early heresies all came from the east, not from the west. It's best if you find an orthodox christian who studied philosophy and also knows theology. It's there where your answer lies.
"One of the most powerful Scriptural arguments against the toll-house theory is the fact that there is simply no direct nor indirect mention of them in all of Scripture. As Fr. Paul O'Callaghan states: "No indication of the existence of the toll-houses can be found in the Scriptures. In fact, it would not be enough to simply say that such teaching is omitted. Rather, the theory of the toll-houses militates against the very nature of Christian hope for the afterlife. One cannot maintain the apostolic attitude of joyous anticipation of being 'with the Lord' in the prospect of standing trial before the 'rulers of wickedness in high places.' Christians are concerned with standing before the judgment seat of Christ… But by no means does the Bible suggest that we will be tried by fallen angels."
“We ought not to fear the demons or even Satan himself, for he is a liar and speaks not a word of truth…and with him are placed the demons, his fellows, like serpents and scorpions to be trodden underfoot by us Christians.” The Life of Saint Anthony
“But if the demons had power not even against the swine, much less have they any over men formed in the image of God. So then we ought to fear God only, and despise the demons, and be in no fear of them.” The Life of Saint Anthony
“For if while the soul dwells in the body the devil cannot bring violence about it, clearly when it departs from the body, he likewise has no power over it.” St. John Chrysostom (Homily on Lazarus II)
I was talking in this life, not in the afterlife.All who get to Heaven are saints.
I'm very well aware that Elder Cleopa believed in them. I have his book where he talks about them, I just haven't read it yet. What's your point of bringing that up? You are telling me just because some elder (a monk) who believed whether it be Cleopa or anyone else, I should be forced to believe in something that's not canonical? You live in the US, but we who were born here, on these soil orthodox grounds, ordinary people in the past and even to this day never heard such a thing as "aerial toll houses". Not just Serbia but every other Orthodox country in the Balkan. My great grandmother, mother of my grandmother, told her that when we die, St. Archangel Michael will come to your bed with his sword to take you to heaven. Funny that later I found out that this is an actual catholic teaching. People always had the need of fear to explain what happens when a person dies, the departure of the soul to the afterlife. There are a lot of different beliefs than this, some don't even care about it and don't make up stuff about what happens after we die. This aerial toll house teaching is the same. Someone made it up insisting that it's real, that demons await you in the air as you go up to attack you.are you aware that Elder Cleopa believed in the toll houses?
I was talking in this life, not in the afterlife.
I'm very well aware that Elder Cleopa believed in them. I have his book where he talks about them, I just haven't read it yet. What's your point of bringing that up? You are telling me just because some elder (a monk) who believed whether it be Cleopa or anyone else, I should be forced to believe in something that's not canonical? You live in the US, but we who were born here, on these soil orthodox grounds, ordinary people in the past and even to this day never heard such a thing as "aerial toll houses". Not just Serbia but every other Orthodox country in the Balkan. My great grandmother, mother of my grandmother, told her that when we die, St. Archangel Michael will come to your bed with his sword to take you to heaven. Funny that later I found out that this is an actual catholic teaching. People always had the need of fear to explain what happens when a person dies, the departure of the soul to the afterlife. There are a lot of different beliefs than this, some don't even care about it and don't make up stuff about what happens after we die. This aerial toll house teaching is the same. Someone made it up insisting that it's real, that demons await you in the air as you go up to attack you.
Demons have no power of our soul, not in this life nor in the afterlife. If the demons did have power over our souls, then people "who sell" their souls would never be able to get them back and would be an unforgivable sin (pointing out an example). Who knows what other stuff might happen. It's because of God and God alone the demons and Satan have no power over us, so if they did, we wouldn't have existed know to write here or do anything in our daily lives. In other words, we'd be dead.
Correct. No such thing was known as "aerial toll houses". People didn't knew about such a belief, nor do they now. Especially old people. You'll never hear old people talk about such thing.If I am hearing you correctly, you are saying this doctrine is hardly known in what are considered “Orthodox” societies.
Yes old people know about the 40 days thing, but I don't know what they think about it. Never really asked. For an example (this isn't connected with the title of the thread but I just want point it out), on these soil orthodox grounds, there still pagan elements over the centuries that haven't been erased. One of the clearest example as I found to persist is believing that the dead person would eat and drink in the afterlife. So people stuff things in his coffin and pour on his grave drinks and leave food. Because of the Ottomans on these lands, a lot of masses were not educated, so they mixed pagan beliefs with orthodoxy. You won't find such things written in English.My paternal grandparents were Syrian Orthodox but had passed away before I knew them. My father & uncles always remembered about the 40 days of the soul journey after death but not toll houses. I had never heard of any extreme terror in this except as how one is judged. The 40 days after death has remained common teaching in the Antiochian Church.
I might guess that the teaching of the 40 days after death has similarities to what C.S. Lewis portrays in: The Great Divorce.
My friend you came to the wrong place to ask such a question and that's the internet.
This so called doctrine has become too popular in this past decade or so. It's not a dogma nor it is even a doctrine. It's just a belief that when you die you pass through these houses filled with demons that accuse you of the sins you have done in your life while angels defend you. If you fail to pass even one toll house you get dragged down to hell by the demons.
Since when did angels and especially demons have power of your soul? When did angels and demons become judges? Demons can't accuse you of sin, they never tell the truth, NEVER. Let's assume that you truly pass through these toll houses after death. You'll get accused with every lie the demons can think of, not the sins you've committed in your previous life. And then the angels defend you from every lie told by the demons. It's just a bunch of phoney baloney.
This belief propagated by the propagators who believe in this, eliminates all hope of salvation after death, because it insists that you become a saint in order to be saved, in order to pass through these houses. Every person has the potential to become a saint, but not everyone can become saint. Just like the tree has the potential to become a chair, but not every tree can become a chair, it could become a table or anything that's made out of tree. It's the same with a person.
What the propagators don't understand about these "toll houses" is that they're a metaphor. They mix this belief with what the desert fathers were saying and that's the passions.
The very roots of this teaching is gnostic and even worse pagan (egyptian afterlife). Because it has entered the church somewhere in the 3rd century. The early heresies all came from the east, not from the west. It's best if you find an orthodox christian who studied philosophy and also knows theology. It's there where your answer lies.
"One of the most powerful Scriptural arguments against the toll-house theory is the fact that there is simply no direct nor indirect mention of them in all of Scripture. As Fr. Paul O'Callaghan states: "No indication of the existence of the toll-houses can be found in the Scriptures. In fact, it would not be enough to simply say that such teaching is omitted. Rather, the theory of the toll-houses militates against the very nature of Christian hope for the afterlife. One cannot maintain the apostolic attitude of joyous anticipation of being 'with the Lord' in the prospect of standing trial before the 'rulers of wickedness in high places.' Christians are concerned with standing before the judgment seat of Christ… But by no means does the Bible suggest that we will be tried by fallen angels."
“We ought not to fear the demons or even Satan himself, for he is a liar and speaks not a word of truth…and with him are placed the demons, his fellows, like serpents and scorpions to be trodden underfoot by us Christians.” The Life of Saint Anthony
“But if the demons had power not even against the swine, much less have they any over men formed in the image of God. So then we ought to fear God only, and despise the demons, and be in no fear of them.” The Life of Saint Anthony
“For if while the soul dwells in the body the devil cannot bring violence about it, clearly when it departs from the body, he likewise has no power over it.” St. John Chrysostom (Homily on Lazarus II)
Correct. No such thing was known as "aerial toll houses". People didn't knew about such a belief, nor do they now. Especially old people. You'll never hear old people talk about such thing.
I do not believe that such a thing exists in the works of St. Anthony, not until I personally read the book myself. And I doubt that he speaks about "aerial toll houses". Saying that St. Anthony or St. John Chrysostom or anyone similar to them, saying that they spoke about so called literal "aerial toll houses" is just a misunderstood twisted representation of what they were originally trying say.you also realize the toll houses are in the life of St Anthony (at least twice) and in the commentaries of St John Chrysostom on the Gospel of St John?
you also presented the toll houses in a way that everyone who believes in them discourages them from being understood?
by the way, Fr Thomas Hopko studied philosophy and theology, and he believes in them.
I guess the Russians made errors translating the original Greek texts, just like the Romans did in the early centuries. And things become a problem when not correctly translated. I'm happy to hear that this thing is being rooted out.I think as the tale of St. Theodora made its rounds in ROCOR in the early 20th century, that sensationalistic aspects were accepted, but many of these elements are now being rooted out.
Your right, that even if holy elders accepted it wholesale it should not be simply accepted. ST. John of Shanghai in his book On the Theotokos Birthgiver of God relates that on her deathbed the Theotokos prayed not to go through the tollhouses. This was never found even in the more sensationalistic accounts of the Greek version and is really no longer accepted.
Neither is a specific number of designated toll houses, not really part of the teaching any longer, neither is any belief that holy people at the hour of their death will be terrorized by these demons, etc.
Today the version of toll houses most readily accepted is that of Met. Ierotheos Vlachos who has discarded these more sensationalistic aspects. This more sanitized version even does away with tying the taxing of a soul with the 3rd, 9th or 40th day memorial service nor is there any idea of a "lingering soul" .
Met. Ierotheos also includes the teaching from St. Gregory of Nyssa that the passions affixed to the soul are attracted towards this dark realm naturally diverting the soul towards hades/hell by it's own accord. Here is Met. Ieritheos Vlachos teaching:
The Taxing of Souls
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