Toddlers and Guns

[Mudinyeri]

Firearms aren't a huge issue for me politically, but if I had to chose a side, I'd line up more with the anti gun side for reasons that might be in the minority.
My understanding is that a firearm unsecured in the home is more likely to be used against a household member in some way ( criminal using victim's gun, gun used for suicide, gun accidentally injuring or killing someone ) than used for successful self defence or defence of life of another member of the household.
I'm also not a supporter of hunting. So, I don't see a lot of reason for personal firearm ownership other than target shooting. I'm not in any hurry to enact gun bans but I don't personally see the need to arm up that many have.
I do think that if one had guns and children they should be required to keep them secure not only to help prevent accidents but also youth suicides, a problem that is epidemic where I live.
I don't know if the Eddie Eagle program addresses youth suicide prevention and the role easy access to guns plays in this, but I hope it does.

What used to be great about the U.S. is that you could have your opinion (speaking generically of 'you') and I could have my opinion and neither one of us felt compelled to take away the other's rights because of our opinion.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Sensible, though I think 11 is a bit young to start hunting.

I was 12 by the hunting season rolled around; old enough under state law. My parents bought me a 20ga single shot H&R which I still have.

And I'd say that a culture where several times a year, firefights break out has plenty wrong with it.

And the "firefights" start because why?.....someone breaks into your property?.....your family is at risk?.....or does the property owner go looking for trouble? (which does happen on rare occasions)?

 

[Mudinyeri]

We are not talking about hunters, but firearm owners in general though, aren't we? So this is a red herring.

So, you think the gang-banging, drug-running criminals that are doing most of the killing are going to sign up for safety classes before they pick up their Filipino ghost gun in the back alley?

 

[Nithavela]

So, you think the gang-banging, drug-running criminals that are doing most of the killing are going to sign up for safety classes before they pick up their Filipino ghost gun in the back alley?

Another red herring? Come on.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

What used to be great about the U.S. is that you could have your opinion (speaking generically of 'you') and I could have my opinion and neither one of us felt compelled to take away the other's rights because of our opinion.

There are challenges, though, like when you send your children to play at another house where they may have a gun around. Do they have a right to keep guns in the open around their kids? Do they have a right not to share that information with me?

 

[Mudinyeri]

Another red herring? Come on.

Not a red herring.

What is the problem that we want to solve? Killing, right? Who is doing the killing? Is it law-abiding citizens, many of whom voluntarily seek out not only basic safety training but advanced training as well?

Or perhaps you're really not concerned with gun deaths but about citizen control.

 

[Mudinyeri]

There are challenges, though, like when you send your children to play at another house where they may have a gun around. Do they have a right to keep guns in the open around their kids? Do they have a right not to share that information with me?

Personally, I wouldn't send my kids to play at a house where I didn't know the parents well enough to know whether or not they had unsecured firearms if I wasn't there myself. Dropping off one's kids with people you don't know very well would seem to be the event the precipitated any incidents.

 

[Nithavela]

Not a red herring.

What is the problem that we want to solve? Killing, right? Who is doing the killing? Is it law-abiding citizens, many of whom voluntarily seek out not only basic safety training but advanced training as well?

The problem I want to solve are accidental gun injuries and deaths comitted by untrained people or children.

Another problem that I want solved is the high number of suicides by gun. But don't ask me how that can be accomplished while letting everyone have their guns, because I have no clue.

 

[Mudinyeri]

The problem I want to solve are accidental gun injuries and deaths comitted by untrained people or children.

Another problem that I want solved is the high number of suicides by gun. But don't ask me how that can be accomplished while letting everyone have their guns, because I have no clue.

So, you don't care about the murder problem which is several times larger, in terms of deaths, than the accidental shooting problem?

I would like to eradicate all accidental deaths - not just those related to firearms.

I would not be at all opposed to offering a firearm safety course in schools. Much like sex ed, parents could opt out their children. We used to do this with Hunter Safety until it became politically incorrect to even talk about guns in school ... or bite Pop Tarts into the shape of guns.

 

[Mudinyeri]

Do you think if we magically made every gun in the world disappear, suicides would be significantly reduced?

 

[Nithavela]

So, you don't care about the murder problem which is several times larger, in terms of deaths, than the accidental shooting problem?

I believe that it is better to solve a small problem than to not solve a big problem and ignore the small problem in the process.

 

[Nithavela]

Do you think if we magically made every gun in the world disappear, suicides would be significantly reduced?

Yes, I do believe that.

 

[Mudinyeri]

Yes, I do believe that.

Then, my German friend, you do not understand suicide.

 

[Mudinyeri]

I believe that it is better to solve a small problem than to not solve a big problem and ignore the small problem in the process.

We've tried to solve the problem (hunter safety training in schools) and been rebuffed.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I never suggested that Eddie Eagle was research. If we're going to have a meaningful discussion, you really need to read what I write.

I did read what you wrote. Here it is again:

↑
I understand the NRA pretty well. They make no secret about their opposition to any effort to get accurate data on the negative side of firearm death an injury.

Yup. That's why they created the biggest program on the face of the planet to try to keep kids from being injured or killed due to the actions (or inaction) of careless adult gun owners.

That's why they help fund hunter safety programs.

That's whey they have developed courses for adults on safe handling of firearms.

Yup. You got it.

Cow was talking about data and you busted out a non sequitur about safety programs.

If we're going to have a meaningful discussion, you really need to address the points that are raised, not distractions.

Does the NRA control the Hunter Safety program in the U.S.?

"Gun safety" is somewhat more broad than just "hunting safety".

As far as "firearms research" goes ... I highly recommend reading this thread in its entirety before we go any further. (We seem to have a recurring theme.)

I read it. What exactly do you think I've missed?

Before any more mis-information gets spread around on this field that has been plowed, let's get a few things straight:

2. Purchasing a firearm in the U.S. at a gun show requires a federal background check. There is no gun show loophole.

This just isn't true. Gun show sales are only required if the seller is a licensed dealer and/or the state requires it. Either way, it's pretty disingenuous to quibble about what is, at worst, a misnomer (i.e. calling it a "gun show" loophole), when the real issue is unregulated private transfers regardless of the venue.

3. Purchasing a firearm in the U.S. with the intent of giving or selling it to a prohibited person is referred to as a "straw purchase" and is a federal crime. (Currently, the feds prosecute almost none of these crimes.)

Yep.

But if you don't know that person is prohibited from owning a gun - or if the government can't prove that you did know - then you're off the hook. Universal background checks remove that loophole.

 

[Nithavela]

Then, my German friend, you do not understand suicide.

I think that I do, actually.

Suicide is often a spur of the moment thing. One does it when in an acute crisis, and if he or she has the means to carry through with it. A gun makes it easy to kill yourself, and you don't get any chance to reconsider once you pull the trigger.

Case in point: I once read this story about how suicide rates on a bridge got significantly reduced just by raising the railing a little bit and making it less convenient to jump from the bridge. (And no, the suicide rates didn't rise in the vicinity)

 

[Mudinyeri]

@iluvatar5150 I'm choosing not to respond to you any further in this thread because you continue to ignore the full context and content of my comments, selecting only what you wish.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Do you think if we magically made every gun in the world disappear, suicides would be significantly reduced?

I think teen and child suicides would, maybe not adult suicides. All the kids who killed themselves here in the pasr two years used guns, and in most cases it was the kind of impulsive thing that thwarting access to guns could have prevented.
Adults may have thought it through better.

 

[Mudinyeri]

I think that I do, actually.

Suicide is often a spur of the moment thing. One does it when in an acute crisis, and if he or she has the means to carry through with it. A gun makes it easy to kill yourself, and you don't get any chance to reconsider once you pull the trigger.

Case in point: I once read this story about how suicide rates on a bridge got significantly reduced just by raising the railing a little bit and making it less convenient to jump from the bridge. (And no, the suicide rates didn't rise in the vicinity)

I'll allow someone far more educated than me to respond: http://www.psychotherapybrownbag.co...avior-is-not-a-spur-of-the-moment-action.html

 

[GoldenBoy89]

I miss the old country flags in the headers...

Me too.

Plus the old reps system. It was a nice and easy way to show you like what someone said without contributing to the tribalism the "likes" seem to encourage.