Todd Bentley

[Tobias]

No,those verses were not just "here are a dozen verses proving that false teachers should not be listened to". The verses also pertain to the character traits of a "wolf"/false teacher (which might as well be a biography for Bentley) as well as instruction not to listen to angels without testing the spirits.

At this point, I'll just say "don't be deceived" and leave it at that. Clearly, you'd like to engage this on an intellectual level based on your questions, yet you refuse to acknowledge the cold, hard facts that have been presented throughout this thread. It tells me that you want to believe what you want to believe, regardless of what might be said to challenge what you believe.

Go for it. Bentley's a false teacher. You want to put your faith in a man with exposed character issues and exposed lies? Be my guest. But don't throw a fit and put on a false air of intellectualism when people don't go along with you.

MadamGuyon took the time to quote scripture and explain to you how female angels are represented in the Bible. Only for you to come back and say that isn't one of the issues you have with Bentley! I don't know what you expect me to do, spend hour after hour addressing all the possible problems people have had with the guy, so that you can just sit back and check them off your list as things you don't care about?

Generally the person claiming people are sidestepping the issue, should be the one to bring up (in detail) what these issues are that he would like to see addressed. Meanwhile I am in fact much too lazy to try things your way!

Not to mention, I think it would be the Christian thing to do if you could hold back on the personal accusations and character assassination. You seem to know what a red herring is, so I imagine you also know what ad hominem means as well. Also I'd like to remind you that it is against the rules of this forum.


God bless

 

[tturt]

What's interesting to me is that some think Lakeland was about Todd Bentley.

 

[probinson]

What's interesting to me is that some think Lakeland was about Todd Bentley.

Yes, the blinding irony of those people saying, "Stop looking at men! Look to Jesus!" while at the same time obsessing over those same men has always been interesting to me.

 

[Faulty]

Yes, the blinding irony of those people saying, "Stop looking at men! Look to Jesus!" while at the same time obsessing over those same men has always been interesting to me.

I'll bet.

 

[JimB]

Yes, the blinding irony of those people saying, "Stop looking at men! Look to Jesus!" while at the same time obsessing over those same men has always been interesting to me.

The difference, I think, is that we do not look to men as examples of what we should be (we look to Christ, as our example) but we can sure look at men to see what we ought not to be. That is the testimony of Jesus who said of the Phartisees, "Don’t follow their example. For they don’t practice what they teach" (Matt. 23.3).

~Jim

It is impossible to reason a person out of something he hasn't reasoned himself into. ~Jonathan Swift​

 

[Yitzchak]

I have a problem with this ultra extreme position of look only to Jesus and distrust everyone else.

It does not seem healthy and goes against the natural order of life that God has set up for us when we are distrustful of other people. We are born into this world as babies who are completely dependent upon adults to care for us. Not only does our physical survival depend upon those who care for us , but also our overall well being including our emotional health and development is dependent upon others.

A good marriage depends upon placing trust in another person. Even friendships do not go very far without some basic trust being a huge part.

I think it is actually harmful to tell young Christians that they cannot trust anyone. It would be like telling a three year old to not trust their parents.

The more balanced truth is that there is a time to trust and to bond with other people in community. There is a time to submit to and trust authority. But there are also times to assert our individuality. There are times to be on guard and exercise discernment.

 

[whatfor]

What's interesting to me is that some think Lakeland was about Todd Bentley.

I see a lot of this , we get visiting pastors come to our church and people are looking to them for healing etc.

I believe in giving them honour as Gods servants, and they do not claim to be any more special than we are.
We should be more focused on God in these times.

As for TB I wonder if the church needs to repent of unforgiveness, we are commanded to forgive everyone, and we all make mistakes.

 

[Simon Peter]

As for TB I wonder if the church needs to repent of unforgiveness, we are commanded to forgive everyone, and we all make mistakes.

I agree that we all make mistakes, and that we all must be quick to forgive.

But two things need to be pointed out:

1. Forgiveness does NOT mean TRUST. Anyone who has been abused can explain this. Forgive the people who have hurt you, who owe you, but that does not mean you pretend it never happened.

2. My perspective is that Bentley is a false teacher/prophet, so it's not a matter of the church forgiving him, the church should repent for ever having accepted him.


peace,
Simon

 

[Svt4Him]

I have a problem with this ultra extreme position of look only to Jesus and distrust everyone else.

It does not seem healthy and goes against the natural order of life that God has set up for us when we are distrustful of other people. We are born into this world as babies who are completely dependent upon adults to care for us. Not only does our physical survival depend upon those who care for us , but also our overall well being including our emotional health and development is dependent upon others.

A good marriage depends upon placing trust in another person. Even friendships do not go very far without some basic trust being a huge part.

I think it is actually harmful to tell young Christians that they cannot trust anyone. It would be like telling a three year old to not trust their parents.

The more balanced truth is that there is a time to trust and to bond with other people in community. There is a time to submit to and trust authority. But there are also times to assert our individuality. There are times to be on guard and exercise discernment.

I don't think it was ever meant to be just from time to time, I think we need to do it all the time. There is nothing wrong with following people who are following Christ, and we are to encourage one another as long as it's called today.

 

[MadameGuyon]

2. My perspective is that Bentley is a false teacher/prophet, so it's not a matter of the church forgiving him, the church should repent for ever having accepted him.
peace,
Simon

You state that Bentley is a false teacher/prophet and you have listed quotes from him on this thread.

May I address a few of them. (I have not copied them all)




Here's some quotes directly from Bentley's own teaching (in his own words):

• During this visitation the pastor’s wife (it was an AOG church) got totally whacked by the Holy Ghost - she began running around barking like a dog or squawking like a chicken as a powerful prophetic spirit came on her.

I feel too that these are strange manifestations, but the fact is that these same kinds of manifestations occurred during the Great Awakening of the 1700's, especially at the camp meetings. And it is a known historical fact that this period of revival awakenings produced tremendous postitive social change along with grand scale salvations........all the earmarks of a true move of God. They also occurred at the Welsh revivals.




Ever hear the scripture..."where there is no ox, the crib is clean..."

Revivals are messy.

• We need to pray for the Father to give us financial angels for our lives, our church and region. With this angelic assistance, we will prevail and overcome the warfare trying to hold back our financial breakthrough.

The truth is that one of the job descriptions of angels is to minister to the heirs of salvation (that's us). And particularly through their warfare in the heavenlies, as we have been given a glimpse in Daniel. There are demonic angels who are hindering God's people from answers to their prayers.

It is high time that we, the sons and daughters of God, come into greater revelation of the spirit realm from which we have been birthed, and must do our warfare.



Angels are real. God wants them to help us. Is financial help something that is excluded from their assistance? Do you object to God's children prospering? Are you suspicious of what they would do if they got financial breakthrough? What exactly bothers you about this?

• Nothing would have convinced these hardened skeptics besides the power of God. Suddenly, I fell under the power in the convenience store and, on all fours, roared like a lion. Then the shop clerk ran with fear and dived behind the counter with the two dope heads right behind him.

While this is not the kind of thing I would want to do, there are lots of strange things prophets have done throughout the Bible, that I am amazed at (like God telling the prophet to cook his meals over human dung) (or the prophet cursing the children and a she-bear comes out of the woods and attacks them). Prophets are usually a strange lot and devoid of the need to please men.

What was the outcome of this encounter?


People began to scream out, "I'm in a trance and Jesus is coming to me" or others, all at the same time, would shout, "We are in a garden." Then I would see a lightening bolt and shout out, "Did you see it?" In response, many others would yell, "I saw it!" The lightning's of God were manifesting. The meeting became pandemonium for two and a half hours.

Trances ARE in the New Testament, so are you just saying they can't happen today? Or that it can't happen with more than one person seeing the same vision?

• Being God’s servant means there is an authority available to us under or in the anointing, that in the moment we decree “favor” or just say the word “favor” over someone’s life (in the anointing), they have to come into favor! I want to emphasize “under or in the anointing” because it’s in moments of an open heaven, when there’s a realm of the spirit, that we can make decrees that change destinies through the spoken word.

Now I'm very surprised this one bothered you. It is very obvious to most of us doing ministry that when the Spirit of the Lord comes on us (the annointing), we utter things that we KNOW will come to pass. It's as if we are standing aside watching God work through us by His Spirit. What disturbs you about this?



Since Jesus Christ is the first born, raised from the dead, and you have been made a joint heir with Him, you have the first born right to double portion. You actually have the right to "make a demand" on your Heavenly Father to restore and bring forth double portion inheritance and blessing in every area of your life.



At this point in time I would probably disagree with Todd's statement here.

• The same goes for poverty. Poverty is death. Look. Any kind of oppression in your life, any kind of torment, any kind of depression—it’s the work of the devil—and it is defeated because death no longer has dominion!

This is absolutely true. Jesus HAS defeated death and the Bible states that we have been given all things, even death. I Cor. 3:22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you,
The trouble is that we the Church haven't caught up to this revelation yet. But if Todd has, then more power to him.

• Now let me talk about an angelic experience with Emma. Twice Bob Jones asked me about this angel that was in Kansas City in 1980: "Todd, have you ever seen the angel by the name of Emma?" He asked me as if he expected that this angel was appearing to me. Surprised, I said, "Bob, who is Emma?"

• As I stared at the angel with open eyes, the Lord said, "Here's Emma." I'm not kidding. She floated a couple of inches off the floor. It was almost like Kathryn Khulman in those old videos when she wore a white dress and looked like she was gliding across the platform. Emma appeared beautiful and young-about 22 years old-but she was old at the same time. She seemed to carry the wisdom, virtue and grace of Proverbs 31 on her life. She glided into the room, emitting brilliant light and colors. Emma carried these bags and began pulling gold out of them. Then, as she walked up and down the aisles of the church, she began putting gold dust on people.

Did you read my post answering this whole Emma angel thing? (post #91, page 10 of this thread). There is biblical precedent.

 

[Simon Peter]

You state that Bentley is a false teacher/prophet and you have listed quotes from him on this thread.

May I address a few of them. (I have not copied them all)




Here's some quotes directly from Bentley's own teaching (in his own words):

• During this visitation the pastor’s wife (it was an AOG church) got totally whacked by the Holy Ghost - she began running around barking like a dog or squawking like a chicken as a powerful prophetic spirit came on her.

I feel too that these are strange manifestations, but the fact is that these same kinds of manifestations occurred during the Great Awakening of the 1700's, especially at the camp meetings. And it is a known historical fact that this period of revival awakenings produced tremendous postitive social change along with grand scale salvations........all the earmarks of a true move of God. They also occurred at the Welsh revivals.

My great grandfather was a Spirit filled Pastor and evangelist who had a church on the border of Wales during the 1904 Welsh revival, and he lived for a while within Wales. I Have some of his diary and I'm actually slightly insulted that you think the preachers of old - men like my great grandfather - typically embraced this extremism, they did not.

I'm aware that people like Mike Bickle claim support from church history, but I suggest you do your own research and don't believe everything you're told.

Here’s part of an article by Pentecostal Revivalist Andrew Strom:


However, it is time now to take a look at
what history has to say about such phenomena.

As many who have studied Revivals will know, it is important to
remember that not only have there been many genuine Revivals down
through history, but also many “counterfeit” movements as well (a
number of which have resulted in quasi-`Christian’ sects that are
still with us today). Even some of the most powerful true Re-
vivals have eventually been infiltrated (or in some cases, “hi-
jacked&#8221, through the devil managing to flood them with excesses
and demonic manifestations, etc. Many of the great Revivalists
came across such counterfeits on a regular basis, and wrote warn-
ings against them. As John Wesley said: “At the first, revival is
true and pure, but after a few weeks watch for counterfeits.”

These false or demonic manifestations have often followed a very
distinctive pattern. And alarmingly, I have to say that they have
often resembled ‘Toronto’ very closely indeed (as we shall see).

The following is an extract from a century-old book by T.W.
Caskey, in which he recalls many of the religious happenings in
the Southern states of America in the early 1800′s. This was the
period when many huge `Camp Meetings’ were held in the South, ac-
companied by unusual religious phenomena (which they called `re-
vival&#8217:

“Some would fall prostrate and lie helpless for hours at
a time… The whole congregation by some inexplicable nervous ac-
tion would sometimes be thrown into side-splitting convulsions of
laughter and when it started, no power could check or control it
until it ran its course. At other times the nervous excitement
set the muscles to twitching and jerking at a fearful rate and
finally settle down to regular, straight-forward dancing. Like
the `Holy Laugh’ it was simply ungovernable until it ran its
course. When a man started laughing, dancing, shouting or jerk-
ing, it was impossible for him to stop until exhausted nature
broke down in a death-like swoon…”

The same writer goes on to
tell how eventually a few preachers began to question whether
such manifestations really were the work of the Holy Spirit.
Gradually, people began to `search the Scriptures’ and `test the
spirits’ a lot more than they had been, and these rather
`bizarre’ manifestations began to die out.

Another historian has written of the great Camp Meetings of the
eighteenth century (particularly in Kentucky) that crowds would
often “go into trances, writhe on the ground and even bark like
dogs”. As is well-known to many who have studied Revivals, such
excesses and counterfeit manifestations have often flooded in
particularly towards the end of a true Revival, when the devil
has been trying to get in and completely destroy or discredit it.

This is precisely what happened with the 1904 Welsh Revival (as
you will see if you read “War on the Saints” by Jessie Penn-Lewis
and Evan Roberts – a disturbing book which probably places too
much emphasis on the devil, but vividly describes many counter-
feit manifestations very similar to what we are seeing today.
Such counterfeits are also examined in Watchman Nee’s “The Spiri-
tual Man&#8221.

A number of `Toronto’ writers have implied that many old-time Re-
vivalists such as John Wesley, Charles Finney and Jonathan Ed-
wards would be quite happy with such manifestations. This is far
from the truth. I have studied the lives of these men, and all of
them were strong “REPENTANCE” preachers who were very suspicious
of any `bizarre’ goings-on. When people fell down in their meet-
ings, it was almost always under tremendous distress and CONVIC-
TION OF SIN.

http://www.johnthebaptisttv.com/2010/04/21/the-toronto-controversy-disturbing-new-facts-from-history/

---

It's important to know that true revivals are all about repentance and salvation, not like these modern so called 'revivals' where the focus and emphasis is on manifestations.


peace,
Simon

 

[MadameGuyon]

I suggest you do your own research and don't believe everything you're told.
peace,
Simon

Please reread what I wrote about this. I said, "I felt, too that these are strange manifestations"

But I wanted to point out that these strange manifestations can be in the midst of a TRUE revival.
Revivals are messy. You are going to have manifestations from the Spirit of God and you are going to have manifestations originating from a different spirit. And these things have to be discerned. Revivals don't come with a set of instructions. A lot is learn-as-you-go.

I pretty much agree with everything you said in that post. But to look at those manifestations and then judge the whole movement as not of God and Todd Bentley as a false teacher/prophet is the same as someone back in your Great Grandfather's time doing the same thing to those movements and preachers.

I don't believe for a minute that those preachers and leaders back then during those historic movements, didn't have to 'learn on the job' so to speak, when revival broke out. They made lots of mistakes, even big ones, such as Jesse Penn Lewis telling Even Roberts he should not come to more of the meetings because it would become all about him, instead of God. BIG mistake, it turns out.

I do believe that Todd Bentley has some maturing to do, but all down through history, God has used vessels that were willing and available, but had lots to learn along the way.

Now, let me ask you. Have you attended any of Todd's meetings and heard full sermons. I have, both during Lakeland, and also presently when he is in town. His sermons are full of 'holiness' and 'repentance'. He talks of what happened at Lakeland and doesn't sugar-coat it.

But, the chief assignment on him, at this time, I believe, is to break open even more of the revelation of the supernatural realm.

 

[Faulty]

But I wanted to point out that these strange manifestations can be in the midst of a TRUE revival.
Revivals are messy. You are going to have manifestations from the Spirit of God and you are going to have manifestations originating from a different spirit.

Where did you determine that true revivals are messy?

I ask because you seem to use this assumption as a starting point for your arguments. I read God is not a God of confusion but of peace
(1 Cor 14:33).

But I'm not saying the assumption is right or wrong, I just want to understand it from your point of view. Thanks.

 

[JimB]

As a pastor, I have to wonder that when our interest (i.e., preoccupation) in religion is in the physical "manifestations," we may be more interested in being entertained at the church house than in living Christ in the marketplace. It seems strange to me that we limit these "manifestations" to our in-house church gatherings but do not "manifest" in Walmart or at the mall or grocery store or in neighboring churches we visit. It seems to me that if these "manifestations" are genuine, then we would see them outside the four walls of our indulgent meeting places.

~Jim

It is impossible to reason a person out of something he hasn't reasoned himself into. ~Jonathan Swift​

 

[MadameGuyon]

Where did you determine that true revivals are messy?

I ask because you seem to use this assumption as a starting point for your arguments. I read God is not a God of confusion but of peace
(1 Cor 14:33).

But I'm not saying the assumption is right or wrong, I just want to understand it from your point of view. Thanks.

During the early 70's in the midst of the revival we all know as the Charismatic Movement, I witnessed some pretty wild things going on. I'm quite sure that not all of these antics were of God's Spirit, but more likely a lot of flesh mixed in.

But still, the fact is, we had a genuine Holy Ghost radical movement of God going on, and it was glorious. I'm sure glad I knew to chew on the meat and spit out the bones. Many of my good friends at the time, said it was all of the devil, and to this day they sit in dead churches.

I remember I left the Baptist church I attended and started going to one of the newly formed laid back charismatic fellowships that were starting up at that time. Former hippies of the 60's were getting saved and came to the meetings with their long hair, bare feet, and free spirit, loosey-goosey ways. Some of the traditional church folks were pretty offended. But over time, the signs of true conversion begin to show in these 'free spirit' type of people.

I think I learned back then to put my sensitivities on the back burner and really listen to the message, check it out with scripture to see if it could be so, and pray, pray, pray.

One of the worst things that could happen to me, I figured, would be for a true move of God to be in my midst, and it pass me right on by.

Yes Faulty, God is a God of peace and not confusion. And in a true move of God, the confusion that man's flesh adds to the mix will eventually come to the surface like the draught it is and can be identified and skimmed off.

 

[MadameGuyon]

As a pastor, I have to wonder that when our interest (i.e., preoccupation) in religion is in the physical "manifestations," we may be more interested in being entertained at the church house than in living Christ in the marketplace. It seems strange to me that we limit these "manifestations" to our in-house church gatherings but do not "manifest" in Walmart or at the mall or grocery store or in neighboring churches we visit. It seems to me that if these "manifestations" are genuine, then we would see them outside the four walls of our indulgent meeting places.

~Jim

It is impossible to reason a person out of something he hasn't reasoned himself into. ~Jonathan Swift​

Yeah, that's a really good point. At the Bentley meetings I've attended, he has a team which goes out after the morning meetings, to the neighboring mall, Walmart, or restaurant for the sole purpose of witnessing and praying for the sick.

Then at the evening meeting, they are called on stage to give testimony to the day's happenings - the salvations and healings that take place. Equipping the saints to do the work of ministry.

I totally agree with you that it has to leave the walls of the church. And people out there usually welcome someone willing to take the time to listen and pray for them.

 

[Simon Peter]

Now, let me ask you. Have you attended any of Todd's meetings and heard full sermons. I have, both during Lakeland, and also presently when he is in town. His sermons are full of 'holiness' and 'repentance'. He talks of what happened at Lakeland and doesn't sugar-coat it.

I have not attended a Bentley meeting, nor would I. I have watched his messages on live TV, and on YouTube. I have also visited his website and read his teachings. I have also read testimonies from people who were in his meetings or were on his staff.

I would definately be interested in hearing Bentley speak about Lakeland without 'sugar-coating it', because what I have heard him say has definately been sugar-coated. If you could point me to a transcript, or video or teaching where he speaks candidly about Lakeland, I would absolutely read/watch it.

Are you aware that Bentley is Latter rain and Dominionist?
Are you aware that Bentley is also Word of Faith?
Do you know that when Dominionism and WoF coexist they often result in 'Manifest sons of God' doctrine. From what I've heard and read from Bentley, he appears to hold 'manifest sons of God' doctrine.

Now let me ask you a question: How do you feel about the manifest sons of God doctrine? Do you agree with it, or do you think it's wrong?

peace,
Simon

 

[JimB]

Yeah, that's a really good point. At the Bentley meetings I've attended, he has a team which goes out after the morning meetings, to the neighboring mall, Walmart, or restaurant for the sole purpose of witnessing and praying for the sick.

Then at the evening meeting, they are called on stage to give testimony to the day's happenings - the salvations and healings that take place. Equipping the saints to do the work of ministry.

I totally agree with you that it has to leave the walls of the church. And people out there usually welcome someone willing to take the time to listen and pray for them.

Yes!! What happens in the church is relatively unimportant compared to what God wants to happen outside the church. Some of our churches have a HOTS program (HOTS = Healing On The Streets) or POTS (Prayer On The Streets) where they simply go out on the streets and ask people if they can pray for them. Reports are that these efforts bear fruit. Our church has a Prayer on the Square program (developed by this forum's NacDan--thanx Danny!) that we hold every Halloween at our city's annual Scare on the Square Festival that has worked well for us. So, I am not nearly as excited about bizarre "manifestations" in the church as I am about simply getting God's amazing grace into the marketplace.

~Jim

It is impossible to reason a person out of something he hasn't reasoned himself into. ~Jonathan Swift[/font]​

 

[MadameGuyon]

Are you aware that Bentley is Latter rain and Dominionist?
Are you aware that Bentley is also Word of Faith?
Do you know that when Dominionism and WoF coexist they often result in 'Manifest sons of God' doctrine. From what I've heard and read from Bentley, he appears to hold 'manifest sons of God' doctrine.

Oh dear, you are one of those who catagorizes people into doctinal boxes. When you do that you cease to receive anything from them and that can be a great loss.

I am not an extreme Calvinist but a pastor friend who is, taught me so much about Godly character. I am not a Baptist, but the love for evangelizing that I learned from them has enriched my life. I could go on and on.

Now let me ask you a question: How do you feel about the manifest sons of God doctrine? Do you agree with it, or do you think it's wrong?

Sorry, dear saint..I won't let you pigeonhole me. The bible says "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks". Judge me by that. God's people don't belong in boxes.

I Cor. 3:4 "For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?"

peace,
Simon

Peace to you as well.

 

[Simon Peter]

Oh dear, you are one of those who catagorizes people into doctinal boxes. When you do that you cease to receive anything from them and that can be a great loss.

I Cor. 3:4 "For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?"

We're not discussing the difference between Paul and Apollos, but Bentley and the Word of God.

Are you saying it doesn't matter what a teacher believes?



peace,
Simon