Todd Bentley

[Biblicist]

Tobias,

No, I didn't watch much of the Gortner video. But I get it. You think Bentley was supported ONLY by a tv crew and his team, and my ability to sense the Spirit of God on him was completely wrong.

What I actually meant by only seeing things through a camera – is really just that, all I was seeing was what the camera was showing me and of course any program will be highly edited. I was not necessarily implying that the program was purely an editors spin but that it can be very hard to gain an accurate picture of what is happening on the other side of a camera no matter who the key characters may be or what the program may be about.

I often light-heartedly say that to my shame it took me at least four hours to realise that something was amiss and hopefully it would have taken me less time if I had of been in their meetings – who knows, maybe the camera picked up more on the bad stuff which I might not have been able to see from sitting in a large meeting.

Just curious, when exactly did you tune into Lakeland?

That’s a good question, I really can’t remember – time does go by rather fast sometimes. Even though I was told probably fairly early in the piece by someone who I know was watching via satellite, I can only presume that it was reasonably early and by the time that I replaced by dead Satellite box it would have been a couple of weeks after I was first told.

Even though it has been a few years, one thing that really caught my attention was with how the cameras were being frequently focused on the many cold and aimless faces that were supporting Bentley. As my wife was spending some time watching him, I did get the occasional glance over the next few weeks but it did not seem that the Spirit was really at work and I would have thought that the program editors would have made sure that any such activity was quickly shown - I know that I would have.

If you didn't see him until a couple of months in, then I'll give you a thumbs up for sensing something was off kilter by then.

It would have been maybe a month or so after I first heard his name that things about his ministry and doctrine were being critiqued. As far as his many questionable doctrines and behaviour are concerned you would probably be better off doing a Google search which would probably bring up numerous reliable critiques of his ministry by well known individuals – assuming that they are still up on the web of course. Unfortunately I have not saved the material that I sourced which is probably a shame; I don’t rely on low-end blogs for my information as I lean more toward academic critiques.

In fact you can probably go to Joyner's website and with those ministries who are still supporting him as they will probably still have all his known sins listed - of course they will be adding in a bit of spin to downplay all of his wickedness.

 

[Biblicist]

Tobias,

I should point out that when commentators say that a 'Revival' is happening somewhere, it is one thing to see this evidenced by God's power but true revival will always display high levels of humility, morals and character. Unfortunately for Lakeland, it was more than obvious that the key players were morally bankrupt and as this vital component was missing it failed to achieve its promoters claims.

I doubt if even his most ardent ministry supporters would deny that Bentley failed to display any discernible levels of humily, morality and character.

 

[Biblicist]

Oscarr,

So it is a good idea to go to a Bentley convention, experience the meetings, and see the people coming to Christ, and have fellowship with those who enthusiastically follow his ministry. Do you sense the reality of Christ in those meetings that you have sensed when you are alone in your private fellowship with Christ?

Even though I understand your sentiments for suggesting what you have, I would probably lean more in the other direction in that we should discern a given individuals ministry first by his character and his theology. Having been in many meetings since the early 70’s where I have experienced not only the presence of God but where I have also experienced the presence of the ‘hype’ or atmosphere within a highly expectant group of believers – the two at times can be very hard to differentiate between.

If we had of known of Bentley’s wickedness and odd doctrines before he walked onto the stage then undoubtedly we may have had a chance of adverting much of the damage that has come out of his so called ministry. A clear mind is best maintained by keeping our distance from the ‘atmosphere’, as this can help us to avoid being confused when the Spirit of God does seem to be working upon individuals in spite of the wickedness and evil that may be present within the venue coordinator.

 

[Tobias]

There is a problem, in that we all have remnants of wickedness in us, and nobody's doctrine is perfect.

The only relevant question then, is are we good enough for God? Samson toyed with his "anointing" and found out just how far he could go before the Spirit of the Lord departed from him.

I have tuned my ear to hear only from my God. Bentley or any other preacher can teach all day on the most heinous doctrines, and I would not notice. Not if the Holy Spirit chose to use him, and was busy speaking to me and teaching me lessons during the sermon! If the preacher is good enough for God, then he's good enough for me!

This is what I mean when I talk about discernment. Some people use the word and mean using your brain power to determine just how accurate someone's words are compared to scripture. I use it only to mean sensing when God anoints a message and uses it to speak to me through it.

The difficult, grey area in this is: I don't really know if the guy is righteous or not, simply because God is speaking to me through him! I would guess that God uses His own criteria to determine if a vessel is usable or not. It also seems that other people sense the same spirit on the man, as with Lakeland and all the thousands of other people who were equally unimpressed with Bentley's presentation but ate up the presence of the Spirit. We all seem to be able to sense when the Gifts of the Spirit are in operation, those of us who are in tune with the Spirit.

What I object to are people who use their mental knowledge of scripture and personal doctrines to "discern" that someone who is full of the Holy Ghost simply cannot be used by God. They are completely blinded by their own opinion, and are unable to listen to the Spirit or sense His presence. Now I'm sure none of us are incapable of doing this, as we all have our weak points when it comes to yielding to the Spirit. But as in the case with Lakeland, when thousands upon thousands of other Christians have stood up and born witness to the fact that God was doing something extraordinary... generally it is a safe bet to go with the idea that God is in fact doing something, rather than placing all your faith in the nay-sayers who might just be driven by jealousy or religious spirits trying to shut the whole thing down.

 

[Biblicist]

Tobias,

Hopefully you don’t mind me simply picking out two sentences but I think that they probably sum up your post fairly well:

It also seems that other people sense the same spirit on the man, as with Lakeland and all the thousands of other people who were equally unimpressed with Bentley's presentation but ate up the presence of the Spirit.

But as in the case with Lakeland, when thousands upon thousands of other Christians have stood up and born witness to the fact that God was doing something extraordinary... generally it is a safe bet to go with the idea that God is in fact doing something,

I would like to think that there were probably more people who were concerned with who he was and what he was about more than just with his presentation. When I did a quick search to remind myself about some of his teachings and behaviour (to better respond to your prior questions), I came across a few of his videos and they reminded me of how I first viewed him. Initially when I saw his tattoos and physical presentation, I though wow...God really must have done a work on this guy as his prior life certainly seemed to have badly affected him – little did I realise that most of his tattoos came after he started in the business of the “ministry”.

To return to the point, these videos reminded me of how I was taken by his apparent lack of surrender to the Spirit and by the end of those initial four hours of viewing I even began to ask myself if the Spirit of God was even upon him at all. I certainly could not ‘discern’ or at least observe the presence of God upon him and as for many (if not all) of those who were on the stage with him I thought that they generally resembled the living dead in that their countenances showed nothing of the presence of God within him.

In those four hours and with the occasional glances over the next couple of weeks, I certainly saw none of the power of God either on the stage or within the crowd though undoubtedly there would have been moments where the Spirit of God was able to work on the faith of those who were present – the cameras can’t be everywhere at once.

Even though others may have seen different things, I guess that as I have been in Pentecost for over 38 years it has allowed me to be able to observe the good, the not so good and the downright scoundrels in the ministry, this coupled with what I hope (though not vainly) is a reasonable amount of maturity in the Lord, that it has better enabled me to discern and/or observe what is of the Lord and what may not be. This is something that can be a bit tricky for the new believer and that it can take time to train our spiritual senses to be better able to see these things. Unfortunately for most if not all of us, our so called awareness of these matters has been greatly tempered by being burnt or badly affected by people who we have unwisely trusted over the years – unfortunately our experiences do not always keep us from being immune to negative aspects of individual ministries, it’s an everlasting learning curve.

 

[mrmccormo]

So in spite of Bentley’s wickedness you can be confident in that if God did indeed work within your life than there is no reason to doubt this; even though Bentley himself was a sham.

I'm curious what Scripture has to say about this. I'm also curious what Scripture would have to say about Bentley's "restoration" to ministry.

From my perspective, Scripture makes it clear that signs and wonders aren't really the "meat" of our faith anyway. So, whether someone came to the Lord through Bentley's meetings is really a non-issue, because the Holy Spirit works in all sorts of circumstances. If Christ can speak to the drugged-out junkie, or even to the Muslim tucked away in the 0.01% Christian Middle East (there are stories leaking out recently about how some Muslims are seeing visitations of Christ telling them to follow Him), then certainly the Holy Spirit can lead and guide His own in a church meeting, even if it is being lead by a fraud. But we shouldn't take that to mean "well, Bentley was crooked, but at least he led some people to Jesus. I guess Bentley has that going for him".

What I think it a far more pertinent issue is whether or not Bentley should continue being in ministry. Obviously, his higher-ups think he should be, because they "restored" him, but if Bentley lived a deceitful lifestyle (he did) and he taught some false doctrines (he did), then his swift restoration to ministry is a cause for concern, not only for those who would start to follow him again so willingly, but also for those who were so eager to restore him to ministry so quickly.

I mean, let's at least have some semblance of following the Bible here, folks. Every time you see Christ or the apostles talk about "false teaching" or "false teachers", they say the same thing over and over again: avoid, stay away, reject, have nothing to do with it.

Bentley's swift restoration to ministry (an issue entirely separated from his forgiveness) was not done Biblically, and it makes people like myself who doubted some of his teachings from the start all the more disenchanted not only with Bentley but also with those who would prop him up (again).

 

[Biblicist]

mrmccormo (# 66),

Originally Posted by Biblicist
So in spite of Bentley’s wickedness you can be confident in that if God did indeed work within your life than there is no reason to doubt this; even though Bentley himself was a sham.

mrmccormo: I'm curious what Scripture has to say about this. I'm also curious what Scripture would have to say about Bentley's "restoration" to ministry.

Now that’s two questions!

I'm curious what Scripture has to say about this.

I think that I have covered this point in a fair amount of detail in my earlier posts to Tobias but I am more than happy to be a bit more specific if you can be a bit more specific.

I'm also curious what Scripture would have to say about Bentley's "restoration" to ministry.

Undoubtedly it would be better if Bentley got a job on an iceberg and preferably one that did not have a phone or Internet connection – though it should have some form of central heating at least; maybe his buddy Rick Joyner could join him as well and they could both talk to 'Emma' for a bit of company.
. . . I know, I'm probably not being all that gracious but maybe they could find a really big iceberg!

 

[mrmccormo]

I think that I have covered this point in a fair amount of detail in my earlier posts to Tobias but I am more than happy to be a bit more specific if you can be a bit more specific.

I'm curious about what Scripture has to say about restoring a false teacher to ministry once they have "fallen". According to my understanding, Scripture never approves of such an action.

My general impression of the pro-Bentley camp is that they assume Bentley needs to be restored to ministry for a "complete" restoration. As in, for Bentley to reconcile his past actions, restoring him to ministry is part of the healing process. To me, that is just bizarre. Bentley can be completely, 100% forgiven by his ministry, his former wife, his friends, etc and yet never again take the role of a minister. His superiors could simply say "You tried. It didn't work out. Now serve God humbly in a different capacity. Your days of leadership are done". To me, this seems quite reasonable, considering the depth of his deception and sin.

Yet, he is restored to ministry. Why? We all know that his sinfulness doesn't mean he can't be forgiven. But on the same note, shouldn't we know that his restoration to ministry has nothing to do with him being forgiven? To me, it seems like people are placing a higher importance on minister superstars like Bentley instead of obeying the Scripture.

And if the ministry is so alive, so full of the Holy Spirit, then God will just raise up another man like Bentley, right? Their actions make it seem like they are - dare I say it? - terrified of the ministry crumbling without Bentley being there? Oh, but wouldn't that make the ministry a work of man, not a work of God?

 

[Biblicist]

mrmccormo (# 68),

... Bentley can be completely, 100% forgiven by his ministry, his former wife, his friends, etc and yet never again take the role of a minister. His superiors could simply say "You tried. It didn't work out. Now serve God humbly in a different capacity. Your days of leadership are done". To me, this seems quite reasonable, considering the depth of his deception and sin.

I think that it sums up the situation rather well.

It does seem that there are many ministry interests, both individual and corporate that seem to have a vested interest in each of the others success; it can easily seem to be that “If you scratch my back then I will scratch yours” and I don’t care what you have done to get where you are.
Are such men being deceived by religious spirits or are they simply good businessmen who know how to string along even people of goodwill?

When it comes to ...

I'm curious about what Scripture has to say about restoring a false teacher to ministry once they have "fallen". According to my understanding, Scripture never approves of such an action.

Even though the Scriptures speak about being careful who we place as either elders or deacons which would also include those who operate in any of the 8 Congregational Offices of 1Co 12:28; it does seem that all we are told is to be careful about our own welfare when we try to restore ‘fallen’ brethren. In my view the actions of someone such as Bentley seems to be way beyond restoration as his wickedness reached far beyond the point of restoration but needed to go as far as excommunicating from the Church for his and our own welfare.

Considering the many forms of wickedness that he was involved in, it does seem highly unlikely that he could ever be restored into any form of ministry as we could simply never again trust such a man.

 

[Simon Peter]

I am familiar with the strawman argument that supposes there are people out there who believe that false teachers don't exist. I can't imagine who they think actually believes this. Nor can I image what kind of person would believe that anybody else believes this.

I have explained myself half a dozen times that I stand against those who say the HS was never in Lakeland. If this is the first you've heard it, or perhaps the first time you've decided to answer it, then that's your fault.

But you haven't yet provided a single quote that shows such a position even exists. Perhaps it does, but I've not seen it.

Perhaps it too is a strawman, IDK. But I am rather certain there were those immediately after Lakeland that claimed this was the case, and argued their position against mine. I am also pretty certain we could find a number of anti-Lakeland websites that make this claim as well.

I would be quite interested though, if you could dig up anybody anywhere that believes there are no false teachers in the world!

I have not claimed there's anybody that believes that there are no false teachers. I just asked who you think they are? Because many Christians are afraid to criticise anyone.

How about John Crowder?

peace,
Simon

 

[mrmccormo]

It does seem that all we are told is to be careful about our own welfare when we try to restore ‘fallen’ brethren.

Indeed. The Bible verses I've been shown that have to do with 'fallen' brethren have to do with sinfullness and falling away from the faith. Applying these verses to a false teacher (who, arguably, was never a "brother" in the first place) seems twisted (I'm not saying you're doing that). Sinfullness and even false teaching are sins, but Christ's love and mercy covers any multitude of sins. I believe that Bentley can commit no sin too great for Christ to forgive as long as Bentley remains in Christ and does not walk away from the faith. And that's exactly what the verses talk about: restoring someone to the faith if they have moved away from the faith.

Should Bentley be allowed to attend church services? Of course. Should he be forgiven by those he hurt? Of course. Should he be given a fresh chance to live his life for Christ amongst fellow believers? Of course. Should the Christian community hold a grude against him? No! All of the verses about restoration and bringing back a fallen brother say that.

However, restoring him to ministry? These verses have nothing to do with restoring him to ministry. Again, I'm just puzzled. What does restoring Bentley to ministry (which is what his leaders are doing) have to do with restoring Bentley to the faith? Nothing. Obviously, a person can be in the faith without being in paid ministry. It just...reeks of alterior motives.

 

[MadameGuyon]

I doubt if even his most ardent ministry supporters would deny that Bentley failed to display any discernible levels of humily, morality and character.

I would have to disagree with this statement you made here, Biblicist.

When Todd Bentley's sin was discovered and exposed, he didn't deny it. He willingly stepped down from ministry and entered a 2 year restoration period by moving to Charlotte N.C. on site with Rick Joyner. Rick gave video updates on this process on his Morningstar website.

After the two year hiatus, he was allowed to preach again under the supervision of Morningstar staff. He came to the church I go to, and Rick Joyner came with him. From that trial period, he has begun now to go out on his own. But he still has regular contact with Rick Joyner.

When he came to my church, he talked about the fall from grace in Lakeland. He says he has learned alot from it. At first he went into a deep depression over the shame and humiliation of it. But Rick helped him take an honest look at what was working in his flesh to make him vulnerable to this fall.

He had been having marriage problems for quite some time, and the outpouring in Lakeland took him by surprise. After weeks and weeks of ministering daily, he was tired and worn out physically, but knew that many people had spent large sums of money to come from other states and other countries to hear and partake of the outpouring. He felt obligated to be there. He realizes now that he needed to take a break and rest and refresh himself in God to keep alert and watchful.

Also, he said that his staff, being young, would often attend a movie after the meetings and invited him along. He wouldn't go because he needed to spend time with God in the hotel room hearing from the Lord for the meetings. But as he got more and more worn out, he eventually went with them to the movies, further weakening his spiritual strength. The enemy knows when and where to attack us, he knows our vulnerable spots, the weakness of our flesh. While this doesn't excuse us, it can give clarity to how things can lead to a successful seige to bring us down.

NONE of us should think that we aren't vulnerable to this same thing.

My impression, seeing Todd two years later from the Lakeland meetings, was a very different young man...more mature and with the meekness of character that comes from submitting to God while going through the fire (even when it's our own sin that brings that fire).

So, I have to disagree with you and say that I think he ultimately DID show humility and character.

 

[mrmccormo]

@ MadameGuyon

Yet, this still misses the heart of the issue: his teachings. While he did indeed fall into sin, that was simply a product of what (I believe) is a character issue. Was his restoration to ministry Biblical? Were his teachings Biblical? That is the question that people refuse to answer here. The issue of his sins is really just a minor part of the story. After all, God views all sin as sin.

People keep bringing the issue back to his adultery and to his repentance for the adultery. To me, that's not the issue at all, and continually bringing it up simply sets off red flags. The real issue that he should repent for - if he is truly repentant - is the false teaching he so openly promoted throughout his ministry. He can commit adultery and then be "restored" a dozen more times for all I care. It won't make me trust the man. What would allow me to begin trusting him as a teacher is when he recants the anti-Biblical things that he taught.

Throughout this entire debacle, it keeps coming back to the adultery. That's what Bentley keeps apologizing for (even though he is now living with is mistress). That's what Joyner keeps "restoring" him from. But in case I have not made it painfully clear: IT IS NOT ABOUT THE ADULTERY. Focusing on the adultery is a dodge. The issue is his teaching. Bentley has NOT repented for his false teaching and his lies. Joyner has NOT pinpointed Bentley's false teaching. It keeps coming back to the adultery, as if that's the only issue on the table.

Frankly, I'm fed up with the dodges from the pro-Bentley crowd. When will you be willing to examine the man's teachings?

 

[MadameGuyon]

When will you be willing to examine the man's teachings?

While at my church speaking, Bentley mentioned the tremendous pressure he received from talking about encounters with angels. He said things would be much easier if he just dropped talking about that altogether, and he considered it.

But he said, that in the end, he decided he was not going to compromise to win favor with people. He said he will preach the truth of his experiences regardless of the outcome.

Now, obviously you are one of those that believe angels and men have no encounters today. You believe God does NOT send His messengers to earth to talk to any of His children.

We disagree on that. My own best friend had an angelic encounter a couple of weeks ago and ascended (out of body) out of the ceiling of her family room, saw angels of the 2nd heaven as she ascended and had an encounter in the heavenly realm.

These kind of things ARE happening...and for a purpose....to prepare us for these end-time evil days inwhich we live. The Body of Christ is maturing. We ARE born of the spirit realm. Is it odd that we would have spiritual ears and eyes to see and hear the realm of our new birth. NO, it is not. The veil of the temple IS rent. We are beginning to see so much of what was there for us all the time, but has to be revealed by the Spirit. It's so important to open our eyes and begin to see the times and seasons inwhich we live. The Church-age is coming to an end and the Kingdom Age is approaching and even now is.

 

[Blueberrymuffin09]

amen MadamGuyon. funny you show up now, I just found a book by the 'real' Madam, and am reading it. Very good stuff.

 

[mrmccormo]

While at my church speaking, Bentley mentioned the tremendous pressure he received from talking about encounters with angels. He said things would be much easier if he just dropped talking about that altogether, and he considered it.

But he said, that in the end, he decided he was not going to compromise to win favor with people. He said he will preach the truth of his experiences regardless of the outcome.

Now, obviously you are one of those that believe angels and men have no encounters today. You believe God does NOT send His messengers to earth to talk to any of His children.

We disagree on that. My own best friend had an angelic encounter a couple of weeks ago and ascended (out of body) out of the ceiling of her family room, saw angels of the 2nd heaven as she ascended and had an encounter in the heavenly realm.

These kind of things ARE happening...and for a purpose....to prepare us for these end-time evil days inwhich we live. The Body of Christ is maturing. We ARE born of the spirit realm. Is it odd that we would have spiritual ears and eyes to see and hear the realm of our new birth. NO, it is not. The veil of the temple IS rent. We are beginning to see so much of what was there for us all the time, but has to be revealed by the Spirit. It's so important to open our eyes and begin to see the times and seasons inwhich we live. The Church-age is coming to an end and the Kingdom Age is approaching and even now is.

The above post is a classic example of a "strawman", as in, you create an imaginary opponent and then argue against that opponent. Sorry, but you are wrong on several counts.

You say "obviously, you are one of those that believes angels and men have NO encounters today". Actually, what is obvious is that I DO believe in such things, because I stated that plainly earlier in this thread. What is obvious is that you have jumped to a rash conclusion and now you have egg on your face.

I do not object to Bentley teaching about angels. Angels are real, both in the Bible and today. Angels are sent by God to interact with mankind. I believe all of this. However, what I object to is Bentley teaching false doctrines, lying about his encounters with angels, and also being very unBiblical in his supposed "encounters" with angels. Oh, and I object to him being "restored" to ministry in what appears to be the most unBiblical way possible.

Ironic that you bring up the end times. Do you know what the end times will be like? *Pssst* I'll give you a hint: it won't be a time when people disbelieve miracles. It won't be a time when the church is led astray by disbelief. The Scriptures say that in the end times, Christians will be led astray by SIGNS AND MIRACLES. Dun dun dun! So, if you're so worried about the end times, then you'd best stand right next to me and be on your watch against false teaching like the stuff Bentley promoted.

Especially ironic that in the post of mine that you quoted, I was talking about this very thing: I'm fed up with the pro-Bentley crowd dodging the issue of his falsehoods.

 

[Ajax 777]

I'm fed up with the pro-Bentley crowd dodging the issue of his falsehoods.

To the blind, darkness is very real.

 

[Faulty]

While at my church speaking, Bentley mentioned the tremendous pressure he received from talking about encounters with angels. He said things would be much easier if he just dropped talking about that altogether, and he considered it.

But he said, that in the end, he decided he was not going to compromise to win favor with people. He said he will preach the truth of his experiences regardless of the outcome.

Now, obviously you are one of those that believe angels and men have no encounters today. You believe God does NOT send His messengers to earth to talk to any of His children.

We disagree on that. My own best friend had an angelic encounter a couple of weeks ago and ascended (out of body) out of the ceiling of her family room, saw angels of the 2nd heaven as she ascended and had an encounter in the heavenly realm.

These kind of things ARE happening...and for a purpose....to prepare us for these end-time evil days inwhich we live. The Body of Christ is maturing. We ARE born of the spirit realm. Is it odd that we would have spiritual ears and eyes to see and hear the realm of our new birth. NO, it is not. The veil of the temple IS rent. We are beginning to see so much of what was there for us all the time, but has to be revealed by the Spirit. It's so important to open our eyes and begin to see the times and seasons inwhich we live. The Church-age is coming to an end and the Kingdom Age is approaching and even now is.

Personally, I have no doubt he's talking to angels, just of a fallen sort.

Same with Joyner, who "restored" Bentley. He's also telling about his discussions with similar angels as well.

 

[Tobias]

@ MadameGuyon

Yet, this still misses the heart of the issue: his teachings. While he did indeed fall into sin, that was simply a product of what (I believe) is a character issue. Was his restoration to ministry Biblical? Were his teachings Biblical? That is the question that people refuse to answer here. The issue of his sins is really just a minor part of the story. After all, God views all sin as sin.

People keep bringing the issue back to his adultery and to his repentance for the adultery. To me, that's not the issue at all, and continually bringing it up simply sets off red flags. The real issue that he should repent for - if he is truly repentant - is the false teaching he so openly promoted throughout his ministry. He can commit adultery and then be "restored" a dozen more times for all I care. It won't make me trust the man. What would allow me to begin trusting him as a teacher is when he recants the anti-Biblical things that he taught.

Throughout this entire debacle, it keeps coming back to the adultery. That's what Bentley keeps apologizing for (even though he is now living with is mistress). That's what Joyner keeps "restoring" him from. But in case I have not made it painfully clear: IT IS NOT ABOUT THE ADULTERY. Focusing on the adultery is a dodge. The issue is his teaching. Bentley has NOT repented for his false teaching and his lies. Joyner has NOT pinpointed Bentley's false teaching. It keeps coming back to the adultery, as if that's the only issue on the table.

Frankly, I'm fed up with the dodges from the pro-Bentley crowd. When will you be willing to examine the man's teachings?

Personally, I dodge the issues over doctrine because I expect they are mostly just denominational differences. I don't care to hear anybody's anti-charismatic or anti-NAR hate slung around again, so I sidestep the issue.

I've always seen the big issue as an unbelief in the possibility that God can use an imperfect man for a while, until the sin overtakes him and God can use him no longer. It's like it's supposed to be understood, that if any sin, or any doctrinal error is pointed out, then it proves that the Anointing we all felt on the guy was not real but fake.


However, I am starting to get curious as to what these horrible doctrinal errors are. I'm starting to second guess myself, and my ability to recognize them when I hear them. Though probably, they are nothing more than your own personal objections to stuff that is taught by thousands of churches across the nation. In which case, expecting Bentley to humbly repent is a bit far fetched!

Do people just assume that they are in control of God? And that if someone comes along teaching stuff they disagree with, then it is most certainly NOT God anointing this person's ministry, and working the signs and wonders?

Is this why the belief in the spirit of Kundalini is so popular, because people just can't fathom the possibility that their pet doctrines might be wrong, or God might overlook doctrine all together, and actually be the One behind the miracles in someone else's ministry??????

 

[Biblicist]

MadameGuyon,

I appreciate that you are not quoting Bentley and his minder verbatim from the meeting you attended, but from what you are saying it does seem that he may still be on the ‘oops I made a mistake...I won’t do that again’ routine; instead of saying, Yes I sinned and failed as a minister to even uphold any Godly principles and for that I repent and seek forgiveness. I remember listening to this character when he was caught out and could no longer lie his way out of things and all he would say with regard to his adultery was that it “was a mistake”. So wickedness in his mind is no longer wickedness but a mere ‘mistake’ or a technical misdemeanour.

When he came to my church, he talked about the fall from grace in Lakeland. He says he has learned alot from it.

By this he probably means, next time don’t get caught out.

He had been having marriage problems for quite some time, and the outpouring in Lakeland took him by surprise.

Amazing! So, many are still convinced that the Lord would use an individual who was (well still is) devoid of any real character and who was involved in various forms of wickedness that would even embarrass many unsaved. So we still feel that this is the type of person that the Father would use to usher in revival....interesting, revival without character and humility and for intent and purposes, with very little of the power of God as well.

My impression, seeing Todd two years later from the Lakeland meetings, was a very different young man...more mature and with the meekness of character that comes from submitting to God while going through the fire (even when it's our own sin that brings that fire).

It seems that meekness of character has never been one of Bentley’s strong points and from listening to Bentley and Joyner I would say that Bentley has at least been shown how to play the crowd so that he could gain some sympathy. Joyner is indeed a masterful spin doctor.

So, I have to disagree with you and say that I think he ultimately DID show humility and character.

As I have just mentioned, he never showed any humility and character during the Lakeland stageshow and I could not discern any while he was being “restored” back into the business. I guess over my years on this earth that I have a different understanding of humility and character. How I miss the days when fallen ministry would simply stay in the background but now we seem to have this multi-million dollar business of restoring people to ministry.

How we have lost any real sense of shame and honour, we treat the ministry as if it is some type of play thing to amuse people as we wish; sadly while this attitude prevails within the church we will probably never see true revival in the Church and we will be forced to conjure up supposed angelic visitations and third-heaven experiences – what a sad period of time we live in.

During the days of the Charismatic Renewal, I could never comprehend the Scriptures that spoke of a time when even believers would succomb to false apparitions and signs and wonders; sadly, over the past few years I have come to understand exactly what the Scriptures are speaking about and undoubtedly we have only seen the tip of the iceberg!