Todd Bentley

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I dont know about anybody else, but I have had my fill of Todd Bentley discussions.

Well then, why on earth did you respond to this one?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Doctrine

Here's some quotes directly from Bentley's own teaching (in his own words):

• During this visitation the pastor’s wife (it was an AOG church) got totally whacked by the Holy Ghost - she began running around barking like a dog or squawking like a chicken as a powerful prophetic spirit came on her.

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=40&pid=954

• We need to pray for the Father to give us financial angels for our lives, our church and region. With this angelic assistance, we will prevail and overcome the warfare trying to hold back our financial breakthrough.

http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html

• Nothing would have convinced these hardened skeptics besides the power of God. Suddenly, I fell under the power in the convenience store and, on all fours, roared like a lion. Then the shop clerk ran with fear and dived behind the counter with the two dope heads right behind him.

http://www.injesus.com/index.php?module=message&task=view&MID=XA007Z25&GroupID=VB006FHZ&label=33&paging=all (Todd’s site)

• People began to scream out, "I'm in a trance and Jesus is coming to me" or others, all at the same time, would shout, "We are in a garden." Then I would see a lightening bolt and shout out, "Did you see it?" In response, many others would yell, "I saw it!" The lightning's of God were manifesting. The meeting became pandemonium for two and a half hours.

(Note: ‘pan’ means ‘everyone’; ‘demonium’ means…I’ll let you figure it out!)
http://www.injesus.com/index.php?module=message&task=view&MID=OA007Z26&GroupID=VB006FHZ&label=33&paging=all

• I go into intercession and become a partner with the angels by petitioning the Father for the angels that are assigned to getting me money: "Father, give me the angels in heaven right now that are assigned to get me money and wealth. And let those angels be released on my behalf. Let them go into the four corners of the earth and gather me money.

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=40

• But I've got to get the angels involved with my incense and say, "C'mon God, let those angels come and help fulfill your word-you promised me the blessing of the Lord that makes one rich and You add no sorrow with it."

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=40

• Being God’s servant means there is an authority available to us under or in the anointing, that in the moment we decree “favor” or just say the word “favor” over someone’s life (in the anointing), they have to come into favor! I want to emphasize “under or in the anointing” because it’s in moments of an open heaven, when there’s a realm of the spirit, that we can make decrees that change destinies through the spoken word.

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=235&bid=

• Since Jesus Christ is the first born, raised from the dead, and you have been made a joint heir with Him, you have the first born right to double portion. You actually have the right to "make a demand" on your Heavenly Father to restore and bring forth double portion inheritance and blessing in every area of your life.

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=227&pid=954&bid=955

• The same goes for poverty. Poverty is death. Look. Any kind of oppression in your life, any kind of torment, any kind of depression—it’s the work of the devil—and it is defeated because death no longer has dominion!

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=239&pid=954&bid=955

• Recently, I had several daily visitations of angels which lasted for weeks.

http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html

• I believe the angel showed up in Albany as a sign that God was endorsing what was taking place and that it was opening up a healing well. Everywhere I have seen this angel the miracles continue after I leave and a healing well is established in that church and in that city. When that angel visits, we have another John 5 Pool of Bethesda experience as God releases His approval.

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=31&pid=954

• Be praying, "Holy Spirit, open the eyes of my heart and let the angels come right now. Let me feel the presence of angels, let me see the angels and let angelic activity be released here now." You know why it is important to talk about heavenly things? Because we actually call forth those things that are not as though they were. As I speak out the truths of the heavenly realm, I'm actually prophesying angelic visitation. I wouldn't be surprised if you have a visitation of an angel today or if you have a prophetic dream.

http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html

• Even unsaved people in the meeting who were into Transcendental Meditation began to see the lightning's of God manifest in the physical realm. They saw lightning bolts zip across the room for two and a half hours. The congregation began to freak out. This prophetic download went on until 11:30 that night.

http://www.injesus.com/index.php?module=message&task=view&MID=OA007Z26&GroupID=VB006FHZ&label=33&paging=all

• Now let me talk about an angelic experience with Emma. Twice Bob Jones asked me about this angel that was in Kansas City in 1980: "Todd, have you ever seen the angel by the name of Emma?" He asked me as if he expected that this angel was appearing to me. Surprised, I said, "Bob, who is Emma?"

http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html

• As I stared at the angel with open eyes, the Lord said, "Here's Emma." I'm not kidding. She floated a couple of inches off the floor. It was almost like Kathryn Khulman in those old videos when she wore a white dress and looked like she was gliding across the platform. Emma appeared beautiful and young-about 22 years old-but she was old at the same time. She seemed to carry the wisdom, virtue and grace of Proverbs 31 on her life. She glided into the room, emitting brilliant light and colors. Emma carried these bags and began pulling gold out of them. Then, as she walked up and down the aisles of the church, she began putting gold dust on people.

http://www.upstreamca.org/angelichosts.html

• ”Each New Year, not only wanting, but also needing a clear commission from the Lord concerning direction for the year, I always seek Him about what lies ahead. With that purpose, recently, I asked my friend Bob Jones (a gifted, mature seer-prophet) about what God was saying to him concerning 2008….”

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=227&pid=954&bid=955

---

The links may no longer be active, and Bentley certainly doctored his teachings about the angel Emma when he started to get criticism. But assure you that these words were taken from Bentley's teachings in his own words. If you are in doubt about anything quoted, please let me know which and I will try to find a good active current source for you.


Character

There's also the question of Bentley's character. I'm not talking about sins prior to his supposed conversion, but since he has been in ministry.

How about just reading this one article on the credibility of a Bentley story (the Hotel fire):

http://www.christianresearchservice.com/ToddBentley7.htm


Here's another article on 'the hotel fire' story:

A Story of Heaven and Earth


hmmm...anyone remember Mike Warnke?


peace,
Simon

At last! Someone who is prepared to give some substantive facts backed up by evidence. That's what I wanted to know more clearly.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

People go to great lengths in their objection to stuff that "technically" sounds like necromancy. Necromancy and mediumship are both condemned in the Bible, but what are they exactly? In our society, necromancy is magick preformed from either using the dead or energies that are released at the time of death; while mediums are like of prophets, but who speak on behalf of the dead rather than delivering messages from God.

To say that any contact with the dead is necromancy, is like saying that anybody who shows any sign of rebellion in their life is practicing witchcraft. Except of course, that the Bible actually tells us that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft; but it doesn't say that any and all contact with the dead is necromancy!

Jesus spoke with dead people on the Mount of Transfiguration. Paul talked about the cloud of witnesses, cheering us on as we run the race set before us. There is a huge, giant, enormous difference between Saul seeking out a medium because God would not speak to him anymore and he wanted to talk with his mentor Samuel -- and somebody having a vision of heaven where they happened to talk to a "dead" person there!

In the case with Saul, the Bible clearly states: "And Samuel said..." Not, "And the demon pretending to be Samuel said..." I can see no justification for writing our own pet theology into this story! This comes from those who believe all the saints are sleeping until the Resurrection, and therefore are not available for talking to. This is also why all spirits of the dead simply must be demons... all because it is the only way this particular theology works. No mention though on why Moses and Elijah were awake and available for Jesus to talk to.

In Paul's time, many people made the connection that eating meat offered to idols was the same as participating in the worship of said idol. Paul seemed to think differently. But he also cautioned us to be sensitive to our own conscience, ans well as to our weaker brothers and sisters.

I also look at how some would say that warfare is murder. The Bible condemns murder, but many people were sent to war by God. Many were executed by the command of God. Does that make murder ok? No. But it does prove that jumping to conclusions is wrong!

So many Christians jump to the conclusion that all contact with those who have died is necromancy. But this is not what the Bible says. Jesus had contact with dead saints, and brought Peter James and John along to watch! In OT times, seeking out a medium or necromancer was equivalent to seeking a different god besides the Lord. This is why it was forbidden. And this is why it is still dangerous in our day, if we attempt to ask the spirits of those who have died for answers when we should be looking to God!

Off Topic. I wasn't looking for a lecture on communicating with the dead. What I am looking for is clarification about Bentley's ministry.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I can't help but wonder if this whole situation has been a big test for the Body of Christ. Bentley screwed up, and I think God has been interested in how we've responded to it. Have we done what He would have us do or what we thought is right?

When King David had a man murdered after sleeping with his wife, God didn't remove him from his throne. God accepted David's repentance even though David stayed with her and married her. God did not strip David of His kingdom. David learned from his mistake. David continued to chase after God, and God did great things through the imperfect man.

Bentley screwed up. How the Body has reacted and responded to the situation because of that screw up is also important to God. We have the bible and the law all figured out, but do we carry the heart of Christ? Do we exercise the truth with love? We're so great at pointing out who the sinner is, but not so great believing there is good news for those who have disappointed us.

How can we look from the outside and judge the authenticity of his restoration process? How can we know if his repentance has been accepted by God or not? How can we know anything about this man's heart without knowing him personally? We hear about him and make assumptions about his spiritual condition; that's dangerous.

God can use Bentley if He wants, and I don't know if He wants to or not, I'm NOT CLAIMING ANYTHING. This is just a "what if" question... what if He decides to work through Bentley and his ministry? What if God plans on doing great things though Bentley? What if this was all a refining process? Will you reject God because of the vessel He could choose to work through?

The church rips apart imperfect leaders- that's clearly demonstrated here at CF. But there has never been a perfect leader (Moses, Abraham, David, to name a few). Our standards are wrong because if any of my examples were leaders today, they would be rejected.

Try to remember these questions are not about Bentley's heart, they are about yours (and mine ).

From the evidence that Simon has given us, I think the problems go deeper than just errors of judgment. I suspect that there are some occultic practices and that puts things on quite a different level. His restoration may have been concerning his marital and personal relationship problems, but has he renounced the occultic parts of his ministry?

 

[Tobias]

Now we need to look at some of the things that would concern me. The following comments come more from what I believe or not believe about a person's experience with supernatural visitations. So I will speak in the first person about what I have observed.


...



I would also have doubts about having a spiritual experience of going into Heaven and speaking with the Apostle Paul. This is occult to me, because it is communicating with the dead. King Saul communicated with the dead Samuel, and this signalled that he was no longer in touch with God and had to go and consult with a witch who raised Samuel from the dead. We actually don't know it was Samuel. It might have been a demon posing as Samuel, just as if the Apostle Paul's ghost came and spoke with me, it could only be a demon posing as Paul.



...



So, bring it on folks, and lets have a stimulating and lively discussion. Then we will all learn something.

Off Topic. I wasn't looking for a lecture on communicating with the dead. What I am looking for is clarification about Bentley's ministry.

Why bring it up in the op, if you don't want to talk about it? Claiming my discussion (which you did ask for) is both off topic and a lecture, seems a bit harsh!

 

[Biblicist]

Evie12,

I think... and I quote your post, it's not up to us to judge... we can feel 'connected' to a ministry or not or we can leave it to Jesus to decide if His intentions we're good...

Even though we frequently read and hear similar sentiments to the ones you have posted, they still go against God’s Word as we are frequently commanded to judge all things and when it comes to any wickedness that comes from within the Body of Christ we are commanded to swiftly and decisively deal with it – even to the point of casting some out of the congregation.


-----------------


Child of JC,

The church rips apart imperfect leaders- that's clearly demonstrated here at CF. But there has never been a perfect leader (Moses, Abraham, David, to name a few). Our standards are wrong because if any of my examples were leaders today, they would be rejected.

Try to remember these questions are not about Bentley's heart, they are about yours (and mine).

I would not say that we are addressing areas of mere imperfection but with how this individual has been demonstrated to be a wolf in sheeps clothing. If it were only about how he combed his hair or something similar your point would be valid; but as we are addressing wickedness virtually to its extreme, the issue is not only about how he has caused destruction within the church but particularly about his heart and his heart alone – which is something that we are to judge.

 

[mrmccormo]

The Todd Bentley discussion is full of strawmen and red herrings. His defenders keep trying to bring the discussion back to the infidelity, to the sin. They keep saying "David sinned! Why shouldn't Todd be forgiven?"

First of all, this isn't an issue of forgiveness. Bentley can be forgiven by God while at the same time being forbidden to engage in public ministry. It's as simple as that. Second of all, there seems to be little to no repentence, especially considering how Todd instigated the divorce and the affair. Reading up on the whole situation, it would seem that Todd and his ministry views the affair and the divorce as simply "marital problems".

But these are all red herrings anyway. The issue is - and always has been, for most - an issue of Todd's theology. This issue extends far beyond Bentley because it shines a bright spotlight on the entire Apostolic/Morningstar-ish movement. It shows some of these teachings and teachers for what they are, and I think that is precisely why many people keep skirting the issue and bringing it back to the "forgiveness" issue with Bentley.

I do not consent. I refuse to bring the focus of this issue back to Bentley's "marital problems" once again, because it is not the issue. The issue is Bentley's theology. Can we talk about his "visions", his "encounters with angels", his obsession with "opening up the heavenlies", his demand that people "release Isaiah 11:2", etc. etc. etc.?

We are in the Charismatic forum. Discussing these topics in regards to how Bentley propogated them is entirely appropriate.

 

[Tobias]

The Todd Bentley discussion is full of strawmen and red herrings. His defenders keep trying to bring the discussion back to the infidelity, to the sin. They keep saying "David sinned! Why shouldn't Todd be forgiven?"

First of all, this isn't an issue of forgiveness. Bentley can be forgiven by God while at the same time being forbidden to engage in public ministry. It's as simple as that. Second of all, there seems to be little to no repentence, especially considering how Todd instigated the divorce and the affair. Reading up on the whole situation, it would seem that Todd and his ministry views the affair and the divorce as simply "marital problems".

But these are all red herrings anyway. The issue is - and always has been, for most - an issue of Todd's theology. This issue extends far beyond Bentley because it shines a bright spotlight on the entire Apostolic/Morningstar-ish movement. It shows some of these teachings and teachers for what they are, and I think that is precisely why many people keep skirting the issue and bringing it back to the "forgiveness" issue with Bentley.

I do not consent. I refuse to bring the focus of this issue back to Bentley's "marital problems" once again, because it is not the issue. The issue is Bentley's theology. Can we talk about his "visions", his "encounters with angels", his obsession with "opening up the heavenlies", his demand that people "release Isaiah 11:2", etc. etc. etc.?

We are in the Charismatic forum. Discussing these topics in regards to how Bentley propogated them is entirely appropriate.

There seems to be a problem determining the facts of the situation. People who disagree with Todd's theology, somehow know beyond a doubt that he also was committing adultery for months and years before Lakeland. But people who were blessed by certain aspects of his ministry tend to believe a different story, and trust that he only fell into sin close to the end.

I guess when we have to rely on people who have already lied to us once, there is no good way to determine the truth. I really don't know who to turn to to get the proper facts. Bentley and bride hid their sin till they got caught. The church and other leaders at Lakeland covered it up. The ministry back home (Fresh Fire) was busy changing old preaching that he was getting heat for. The apostolic leaders of NAR somehow were either clueless of the situation, or thought they could bandage their way through it. Morningstar ministries immediately helped establish Fresh Fire USA, and were accepting donations before Todd barely had time to repent, let alone recover and consider whether he should be restored or not.

If we could trust the integrity of the apostles and such of NAR and Rick Joyner, we could perhaps see the the issue was not that big a deal in Lakeland, and the recovery wasn't supposed to take too long. Perhaps marital problems had been brewing for many years, and both husband and wife were at fault and beyond reconciliation. Those who think poorly of the NAR, are absolutely certain this is not the case, and insist that Bentley and ex-wife should be rejoined, even after a couple years of marriage with the second wife! But generally the people counseling the couple are the only ones who truly know the situation. The rest of us simply have to trust their judgement. Unless, they really are untrustworthy!



Personally, I have tried to discuss one of the issues with their theology in this thread, and it seems people would rather condemn me as a sinner than take the time to consider what the scriptures say. I'm not trying to justify my unrepentant lifestyle, or lead as many Christians astray as I can before I am discovered and kicked off this forum. But it comes to a point where these doctrines and beliefs (and practices) are no longer just "Todd Bentley's", but they are actually being believed by those of us here! I can understand that it is easier to simply write something off as unholy and taboo, than to reconsider whether the scriptures actually say what you think they say. But at the same time, people are judging brothers and sisters in the Lord, and ex-communicating from them simply because they won't take the time to adjust their theology.

It has always been the pattern, that people have to experience aspects of the work of the Holy Spirit, before they will explore the scriptures to find out if it is really of God.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Why bring it up in the op, if you don't want to talk about it? Claiming my discussion (which you did ask for) is both off topic and a lecture, seems a bit harsh!

My toilet tissue might have been a bit rough when I wrote that. Sorry. When I read more posts later on, the discussion was quite interesting. I will accept that it was part of the topic and worth discussing.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It seems that the Charismatic environment with its freedom to explore the supernatural brings out people who stretch the boundaries to their greatest extent. Unless a person knows their Bible, they can be taken in by personable preachers who recount interesting and exciting experiences and make people think that they are extra super duper spiritual and that the mere mortals need to hang on whatever they say.

I heard a very good message which taught that the foundation of the prophetic is close fellowship with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. All genuine prophetic flows out of that close fellowship. In fact, eternal life is that we might know Him on a personal level.

The preacher said that he did not want angelic visitations or being lifted into the seventh heaven. What he wanted is to have a close fellowship with Jesus.

He made the point where Paul referred to going into the seventh heaven, seeing and hearing things that he was not authorised to discuss. So, someone having that experience and telling everyone about it is disobedience.

Abraham told the rich man in hell that if people did not believe the Law and the Prophets (the Scriptures), then they would not trust in God even if someone was raised from the dead and went back to tell them about what was going to happen.

 

[Tobias]

I've had angelic visitations and otherworld experiences to the point of it almost turning me into a pagan. Seriously, I was but a hare's breath away. I don't usually think "Oh look at me, I'm super spiritual" when I talk about them. Mostly I just think, "Help, I feel so lost!!!"

Sometimes the Holy Spirit gives me a list of passages from the Bible that support some of these experiences. Things I never thought to consider. I didn't think talking with saints in heaven was biblically supported, but for some reason it looks like I was led that way. I don't know what to think though until I run it through the mill, and let other people who I can trust to have a good knowledge of the Bible, consider whether this is actually what the scriptures say or not!

If someone doesn't want to participate and help, that's ok. It's not like I always want to deal with this stuff myself. But I'm sure we can all relate to the many stories of people getting baptized by the Spirit or experiencing one of His manifestations, and then later having to weigh the scriptures to see what they say.

 

[Tobias]

Huge problems arise when we say that something is not of God, when it really is.

People trusted Bentley, and felt the Holy spirit move on their hearts and in their lives. When someone comes back and says that Bentley has always been false, and was living in sin for years, then what we understood once to be the Holy Spirit is taught to be a lie.

If this is true, then we do good to know the Truth. But if the criticism is false, then we are led to believe that the Spirit of God is our enemy. The entire goal of Christianity IMO is relationship with God, so it is of utmost importance to get these matters right.


A very similar situation applies to my personal life. If God was not there in those times when I did things other people claim are not of Him, then I made a grave error of judgement in discerning the Voice of God. Which in fact, could mean that the God I have come to know and love may not be the Christian God at all! And while most Christians are willing to take this criticism of their ability to recognize God and either give up on the Spirit or become inactive Christians; I was more willing to accept my God as being someone else (ie, a pagan deity).

I was willing to give up Christianity as a religion that did not properly express the relationship I have with God, or His desires for mankind. All perhaps because Christians would rather stick with their doctrines of Man than consider the possibility that God is someone they don't know quite as well as they think they know Him. But God seems to keep leading me back to Christianity, and resolving the issues I have with the religion not properly explaining Him. It was through Charismatic Christianity that I learned 90% of everything I know about Him, so it only makes sense that the few issues we have that separates between us should be easily resolved.

 

[Simon Peter]

Huge problems arise when we say that something is not of God, when it really is.

Huge problems arise when we say that something is of God, when it really is not.


peace,
Simon

 

[Biblicist]

Oscarr,

Even though most of us would like to give people a second chance or even the benefit of the doubt, it does seem that we have maybe lowered the benchmark when it comes to accepting the many dubious so called ministries that move around within the Church.

When we read what Paul has to say regarding how we are to choose people for ministry and/or leadership roles, it does appear that we are prepared to accept anyone particularly if they can tickle our wants and needs; of course it helps if they have published a book (even if it’s only ghost written) or had the support of other ‘celebrity’ ministries and as for a time spot on the God TV Channel, well, that means that we have finally made it.

Over the past 30 years alone there has been many high profile ministries who have been caught out committing serious sin as well as being involved in criminal activity, a partial list can be found here and this list is far from being comprehensive as with Michael Guglielmucci here in Australia during 2008 who as the son of a major AOG State Leader pulled off one of the greatest hoaxes on the church maybe since Marjoe Gortner.

One trend that has been more than obvious over the years is with how individuals will quickly latch on to a celebrity and when things begin to unravel in these so called ministries, they initially defend them but when their sin and wickedness becomes too hard to ignore they begrudgingly admit that there may be a “few problems but of course God loves them and so should we”; once they realise that these celebrities can no longer be defended they lay low until the next conman comes along and the same scenario is repeated until the next one comes along and so forth.

One very sad aspect of this celebrity adoration, is that if their so called supporters had of pulled back and allowed these people to sort themselves out very early in their ministries, they may have had an opportunity to get things in order before things got out of hand. One would have to also ask what were the motivations of those who initially helped to support them? Were these people merely gullible and naive or were they simply happy to support them for their own selfish gain.

 

[Biblicist]

Tobias (# 32),

Huge problems arise when we say that something is not of God, when it really is.

People trusted Bentley, and felt the Holy spirit move on their hearts and in their lives. When someone comes back and says that Bentley has always been false, and was living in sin for years, then what we understood once to be the Holy Spirit is taught to be a lie.

If this is true, then we do good to know the Truth. But if the criticism is false, then we are led to believe that the Spirit of God is our enemy. The entire goal of Christianity IMO is relationship with God, so it is of utmost importance to get these matters right.

I think that if most people had of commented on your post that we would have also used the same reply that Simon Peter provided as well.
Even though Bentley was a scoundrel probably from the beginning, he still allowed people to focus on the Lord and the Lord will always respond to our cries even if the venue coordinator is a conman or whatever. What complicates matters is that it can be easy for the best of us to succumb to group pressure within a large Christian gathering where we can be a bit inclined to dismiss many apparent irregularities – remember his meetings were still gatherings of Christians, even though he and probably a number of his cohorts were scoundrels we know that where two or more are gathered the Holy Spirit will be present.
When we place our focus on the Lord during times of heartfelt worship of him, we of course obtain a heightened sense of the Lords presence and this should never be dismissed because the venue coordinator is simply there for his own self gratification. When his presence is amongst us and at times when our own individual faith his heightened we can indeed receive Gods healing grace upon us, again in spite of who the venue coordinator may be.

A very similar situation applies to my personal life. If God was not there in those times when I did things other people claim are not of Him, then I made a grave error of judgement in discerning the Voice of God. Which in fact, could mean that the God I have come to know and love may not be the Christian God at all!

Tobias...please, don’t try and discredit the Father simply because we humans can fail to show some common sense! Over the years I have certainly displayed bad judgment and undoubtedly I will do so in the future but I certainly can’t blame God for my fallen human nature which is why Christ died on the Cross for our inability to reconcile ourselves with God.

When it came to Bentely, I was told that I should take a look at the God TV Channel as they were hosting “the latest and greatest move of God”; after about four hours of watching Bentley I came to the conclusion that something was not right. As I was watching him through the confines of a camera lense and with a highly edited program it was hard to work out exactly what was wrong. Of course my concerns were soon justified.

Do I have a heightened sense of discernment, I don’t really think so but having watched these characters for over 30 years some things can quickly seem not right.

 

[Yitzchak]

I dont know about anybody else, but I have had my fill of Todd Bentley discussions.

It depends. I am not that interested in a discussion where people are either just bashing him with vague innuendos or on the other hand supporting him with equally vague notions on the other side,

But a discussion where we can actually learn from it is interesting to me.

 

[Yitzchak]

I can't help but wonder if this whole situation has been a big test for the Body of Christ. Bentley screwed up, and I think God has been interested in how we've responded to it. Have we done what He would have us do or what we thought is right?

On this point , I do think that Rick Joyner did a good job of setting an example for the church on having a redemptive rather than a condemning approach towards a leader who falls into sin.

Of course , the theology of Morning Star and Nar and the liberal views that they hold on several issues is a part of that. If Bentley was being restored by the Southern Baptist Church or the Methodist Church , their beliefs would be reflected in the process.

I think that it is helpful to separate the issues. Some disagree with Charismatics , in general , others with anything liberal , some disagree with NAR and some of their Theology. A lot of the criticisms towards Bentley are really objections to the entire movement that he is a part of which includes millions of people.

Obviously the people in that movement are not teaching that sin is o.k. But they do have some liberal views on some issues that factor in.A more liberal viewpoint on divorce and remarriage is just one of several obvious issues. They also do tend to have more liberal views on Charismatic experiences especially when it comes to angel visitations and testimonies of supernatural experiences which are extreme.

Personally , I do not like Morning Star much. It is not the style that I am comfortable with and they have some liberal views on Theology that I find troubling. But I do think that Rick Joyner seems to have made a sincere attempt to do the right thing , within the framework of their basic beliefs.

 

[Tobias]

Tobias (# 32),
I think that if most people had of commented on your post that we would have also used the same reply that Simon Peter provided as well.

I don't think so. Maybe most of your friends would though!

This may very well be the crux of the Todd Bentley debate. Some people are pessimists, and some optimists. Some see the glass as half empty, and others as half full. We are divided between those who wish to see the Spirit move no matter what the flaws are in the minister or denomination, and those who wish to see correct doctrine preached no matter what the cost. Those who give grace no matter how much a scoundrel the guy is preaching, and those who see fault no matter how holy the individual.


I know we all want to find the middle ground. But it seems that no matter how often I tell you guys what that is, you still don't listen!

Even though Bentley was a scoundrel probably from the beginning, he still allowed people to focus on the Lord and the Lord will always respond to our cries even if the venue coordinator is a conman or whatever. What complicates matters is that it can be easy for the best of us to succumb to group pressure within a large Christian gathering where we can be a bit inclined to dismiss many apparent irregularities – remember his meetings were still gatherings of Christians, even though he and probably a number of his cohorts were scoundrels we know that where two or more are gathered the Holy Spirit will be present.
When we place our focus on the Lord during times of heartfelt worship of him, we of course obtain a heightened sense of the Lords presence and this should never be dismissed because the venue coordinator is simply there for his own self gratification. When his presence is amongst us and at times when our own individual faith his heightened we can indeed receive Gods healing grace upon us, again in spite of who the venue coordinator may be.

This works, in a way. It's not what I think happened; but at least it doesn't deny the working of the Holy Spirit that thousands of people felt going on there in Lakeland. That is my main concern, when people feel the need to say that the Holy Spirit was never present, and that everything behind the hype was nothing but smoke and mirrors. This is what I was referring to when it comes to relationship with God. If we are told that the relationship we've begun with Him is false, then we are taught to mistrust the only One in the universe that we should be trusting!

I find it disturbing that anyone would think that it is ok to teach this, citing perhaps a greater danger (in your own opinion) that it is far worse to say a false spirit is of God when it isn't. I know in my own life that true relationship with God overshadows any other spirit that may try to interfere or pretend to be Him. And my heart aches for all the thousands upon thousands of people who have let their relationship with God cool down to nothing because they can't trust their ability to discern Him anymore from the ominous spirit of Kundalini... So it's understandable that my focus on this situation would be different from yours.

 

[lismore]

The poor lady, who was his wife and was divorced by him. I think our thoughts and prayers should be with her.

 

[Child of JC]

In truth, nobody knows what God has done in Bentley's heart in these last few years. What if God has done a great clean up? What if God is pleased with the man? What if God decides to use him and work through him? I'm not a Bentley fan, it's not that. I'm not hoping and praying for the return of his ministry. I wasn't invested in the Lakeland thing, but I do believe God was at work in it- I don't reject it completely and say God did not touch hearts- (God is not confined to perfect ministries and righteous leaders). I do believe our Lord allowed it, and I also believe this was exposed before the whole world for a reason. I don't believe God did that to leave thousands wounded and confused, or to humiliate Todd on the big stage, (who is Todd Bentley that his sin needs more exposure than everyone else's?). I don't believe God wanted to make sure we saw another "false leader". There's another chapter coming. There's healing coming because that's who God is. I also think many will miss it because they really don't believe the Father's love is great enough to restore a sinner like Todd. I believe the chapter that is to come will be a story about the Father's Love, Mercy and Grace. I really don't care how "bad" Todd is or was, because my Father is Bigger and Lovelier. I'm confident that Daddy got through to the man, because it's not just Todd's heart that is going to receive the message. There's many in the world who are just like Todd who need to know the Father's Heart for them- who need to know that their big screw up will not keep the Father from Forgiving them. God doesn't give up on sinners as quickly as the church does! I can't believe that Todd Bentley has been able to resist the Father's Heart all these years. Guess well see.