To whom and why God gave the Sabbaths?

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 15, 2016

pat34lee said:
The new covenant which is not in force yet.
How do people miss the obvious, that they
do not have the law written on their heart?

Keep seeking as Y'SHUA SAYS. Perhaps HE will let you meet some.

pat34lee said:
When 2 Christians can't even agree on what
is law and what is sin, there is a problem.

Keep seeking as Y'SHUA SAYS. Perhaps HE will let you meet some.

pat34lee · Oct 15, 2016

Bob S said:
That is not the point my friend. Why can't you just admit you threw something out there that cannot be proved. There is absolutely no basis for writing what you did.

We should be dealing with facts.

Then let us assume that only Israel was at the mount,
and that the law was given to them alone. What are
some of the other facts?

1. Strangers living in Israel were to be treated fairly.
2. Strangers and sojourners were to follow the same laws as the native.
3. In order to become part of Israel, men must be circumcised. Then they
were considered as one born to Israel and could join a tribe.

Leviticus 19:33-34
33 When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong.
34 The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 12:47-49
47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

pat34lee · Oct 15, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Keep seeking as Y'SHUA SAYS. Perhaps HE will let you meet some.

Keep seeking as Y'SHUA SAYS. Perhaps HE will let you meet some.

Why ask to be second fiddle?

I fully expect to be one, when the covenant
becomes effective and Yeshua is reigning in
Jerusalem and is high priest at the temple.

Since the temple was in operation for 40 years
after Yeshua died, rose and resurrected, when
did the law stop and the new covenant begin,
if it is in effect now?

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 15, 2016

pat34lee said:
Why ask to be second fiddle?

I fully expect to be one, when the covenant
becomes effective and Yeshua is reigning in
Jerusalem and is high priest at the temple.

Since the temple was in operation for 40 years
after Yeshua died, rose and resurrected, when
did the law stop and the new covenant begin,
if it is in effect now?

With all the possibly tangled or different history and 'education' or 'learning' you have ,
it will take revelation from the FATHER in HEAVEN
to understand this. (same as for anyone else).

UNlearning is in some way(s) more important than learning what HE MEANS IN HIS WORD, in TRUTH.

Ken Rank · Oct 15, 2016

Bob S said:
I don't believe for a minute that Gentiles are a part of Israel nor do we become part of Israel when we accept Jesus. Yom Kippur was a celebration demanded by God for sins. You hope God will forgive your sins.

When the English word "gentile" was first used as the translation of the Greek "ethnos," it meant, "pagan, heathen, one who is neither Jewish nor Christian." (source, Webster's 1828 Dictionary) TODAY the definition means, "a believer who is not Jewish." The problem is we have continued to a use an English word that meant one thing 400 years ago when it was first used and means something entirely different today. 400 years ago, a "gentile Christian" was an oxymoron, it couldn't exist. Today it is a term that is embraced. The covenant is made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel, Bob. You can take any position against me you want, say what you want, think what you want... but in the end... you will >>NOT<< find a "covenant of the gentiles." Jeremiah 31:31-34 is repeated "word for word" in Hebrews 8:8-11 and tied to Yeshua. It is THAT SET OF VERSES that we cling to that show we are part of the new covenant.... and yet... it says, "the House of Judah and the House of Israel," period. So, instead of telling me how wrong or bad or whatever it is you perceive me to be... why not show me where the gentiles are in covenant. Thanks.

Bob S said:
Jesus is fulfillment of that celebration and we who trust in Him don't have to hope we know He has given forgiveness and washed away everyone of our sins forever, something Yom Kippur could never do. Feasts, New moon celebrations and weekly Sabbaths were for Israel only and are now shadows just as is Israel.

Fine, don't do them, that is between you and God and I would NEVER try to encroach on your relationship nor your practices. I on the other hand consider myself incredibly blessed by the feasts and Sabbath and will continue to do them, if it is ok with you? After services today we will rest for the remaining time in the day and then get ready for Sukkot (Tabernacles) which begins tomorrow night. It is by far my children's favorite time of the year. You'll be hard pressed to come and visit the 125 people camping out for the week (and the 10's of thousands doing it elsewhere) and find a people in bondage. You will instead find a people in pure joy and love and peace. I watch people like you belittle what we do, then come out and leave wondering how they could have been so wrong.

Again... do as you are convicted of as will I. And in the end we ALL will be corrected in due course just as God promised through Jeremiah. Until we are perfected, we are imperfect and I might be wrong Bob. But it isn't wrong through rebellion, it would be wrong through love and a desire to walk as Yeshua walked. He did these things and he is my model to follow. So if I am wrong, I am simply wrong as I follow his path, doing the things he did. Shalom!

Ken Rank · Oct 15, 2016

klutedavid said:
Hello Ken.

You made a statement about the Sabbath that is not correct.

There are numerous letters that date from the first century to the fourth century.

That tell us that early in Christianity, the Sabbath was already obsolete. Here Ken, I will print one of these letters below.
Epistle of Barnabus
Written sometime after the destruction of the temple in 70 CE and before the Bar Kochba revolt in 132 CE.

Barnabas 15

8 Finally He saith to them; Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot away with. Ye see what is His meaning, it is not your present Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another world. 9 Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended into the heavens.

Greetings. I appreciate the input. Based on the information I have obtained over the last 10-15 years, I don't think history supports your view. I will, of course, hear you out but until you provide "Scripture" that reveals a move to Sunday, I can't see leaving the day that was set apart. That said....

There is no doubt that some Jews began to keep Sunday immediately. However, as stated, you won't find a mandate in Scripture to do so. In your first attempt to show my error, you didn't share any Scripture that states that Sunday would be set-apart for the Christian, you showed the Epistle of Barnabas which is neither canon nor 100% trustworthy.

I am certain you are familiar with the fast of the first born? For those who aren't, this is a fast that began on the evening of the 14th of Nisan, Passover. Keep in mind, the day begins at sundown so this would have been the night before Yeshua was killed... however, by biblical counting it is still the same day. Anyway, the first born male, by tradition, would fast from the evening of the 14th until the evening of the 15th which was the beginning of Unleavened Bread and also when the Passover Lamb would be eaten. However, some first born males, including James, continued their fast until Sunday when it was learned that Yeshua had risen. A very small number of Jews began to observe Sunday at that time because of the spiritual significance of that day as they perceived it. This practice was in strict minority until a much later time.

There are two events that did come later that really define the course of the church. The first was the death of James (who was the head of the church at Jerusalem) and the destruction of the Temple (they happened close in time so I count them as one)... and this event was something that many Jews believed was Yeshua's warning (Matthew 24:15-16) and thus as many as half of the Jewish Christians fled to the mountains. The remaining half stuck it out, reproduced, and grew in number until the Bar Khokba revolt. There, Rabbi Akiva gave Bar Kosiba a messianic title in an effort to rally the Jews against the Romans. The remaining Jewish Christians would not fight for the sovereignty of their homeland under the banner of a false messiah, and they too fled the area. From that point on, within just 20 years (by 150AD...ish), the face of Christianity, the visible open face, was more Greek than Jewish. Animosity that began with the actions of the Pharisees, took on a fever pitch by the Greek Christians and the Jews began to be called "Christ-Killers" (Justin Martyr around 150AD in “Dialogue with Trypho”) and were maligned in other ways as seen in the homily Peri Pascha, Melito of Sardis (circa middle of the second century) where it was stated, “God was murdered” by the Jews, of course. These writings and MANY MORE I can produce, set the tone for our paradigm and as we move forward in time, this becomes the mindset of Christians and is what we are “born into” which shapes how we view Scripture as we read it. That is really important but rarely considered... if a decision is made or a conclusion reached and is accepted by the religious culture... then any dissension is lost after the opposing generation dies off. We are 1600-1700 YEARS after many decrees were passed that were designed to make us appear less Jewish. So, we are NOW "born into" a religious culture that has no Jewish connection at all EVEN IF Christianity was considered a sect of Judaism in the first century.

Anyway... back to 150AD...ish..... the Greeks who were becoming Christians had already been keeping Sunday (they were sun worshipers). And, since the Greeks tended to look for ways to spiritualize reality, the idea of setting Sunday aside because Yeshua was raised (really Saturday night) on that day was a natural fit for them and they began to do it in force. By the time The Council of Laodicea (canon 29) is made that prohibits resting on the “Jewish Sabbath,” it was already pretty much a foregone conclusion and the practice of the day. But we are now talking about more than 300 YEARS since the ascension. Look how much more liberally so many in our culture view the Constitution (and how much more so should HRC win) in just 240 years. When it comes to practice, what we are talking about is over 300 years and an entire CULTURE removed... no longer Jewish but Greek. No longer function but form.

Still, you will find NO Scripture that sets apart Sunday, none. Not only that, you will find Catholics claiming that they are responsible for the move, at least officially.

"It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church." Priest Brady, in an address reported in the Elizabeth, NJ News on March 18, 1903

"Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ... in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope." Our Sunday Visitor, February 5, 1950

Which is the Sabbath day? Saturday is the Sabbath day. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday? We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." Rev. Peter Geiermann C.S.S.R., The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

"Must not a sensible Protestant doubt seriously, when he finds that even the Bible is not followed as a rule by his co-religionists? Surely, when he sees them baptize infants, abrogate the Jewish Sabbath, and observe Sunday for which there is no Scriptural authority; when he finds them neglect to wash one another's feet, which is expressly commanded, and eat blood and things strangled, which are expressly prohibited in Scripture. He must doubt, if he think at all. ... Should not the Protestant doubt when he finds that he himself holds tradition as a guide? Yes, if he would but reflect that he has nothing but Catholic tradition for keeping the Sunday holy." Controversial Catechism, Stephen Keenan, New Edition, revised by Rev. George Cormack, published in London by Burns & Oates, Limited - New York, Cincinnati, Chicago: Benzinger Brothers, 1896, pp. 6-7

So, if you want to sway my view, show me SCRIPTURE that moves the Sabbath to Sunday or otherwise sets Sunday apart, makes it holy, from the other days. If man lives not by bread but by "every word of God," then show me in the Word of God where we set Sunday aside. I keep Saturday because I can find no mandate to move the Sabbath nor abolish it. Eve if you view it as "a shadow," what it points to have NOT come to pass yet. You will take communion (something first done in a Passover Sedar) and communion points BACK to something already completed, and then not take part in something that points to something that has yet to come to pass. I find that, personally, to be inconsistent.

JohnRabbit · Oct 15, 2016

Ken Rank said:
Greetings. I appreciate the input. Based on the information I have obtained over the last 10-15 years, I don't think history supports your view. I will, of course, hear you out but until you provide "Scripture" that reveals a move to Sunday, I can't see leaving the day that was set apart. That said....

There is no doubt that some Jews began to keep Sunday immediately. However, as stated, you won't find a mandate in Scripture to do so. In your first attempt to show my error, you didn't share any Scripture that states that Sunday would be set-apart for the Christian, you showed the Epistle of Barnabas which is neither canon nor 100% trustworthy.

I am certain you are familiar with the fast of the first born? For those who aren't, this is a fast that began on the evening of the 14th of Nisan, Passover. Keep in mind, the day begins at sundown so this would have been the night before Yeshua was killed... however, by biblical counting it is still the same day. Anyway, the first born male, by tradition, would fast from the evening of the 14th until the evening of the 15th which was the beginning of Unleavened Bread and also when the Passover Lamb would be eaten. However, some first born males, including James, continued their fast until Sunday when it was learned that Yeshua had risen. A very small number of Jews began to observe Sunday at that time because of the spiritual significance of that day as they perceived it. This practice was in strict minority until a much later time.

There are two events that did come later that really define the course of the church. The first was the death of James (who was the head of the church at Jerusalem) and the destruction of the Temple (they happened close in time so I count them as one)... and this event was something that many Jews believed was Yeshua's warning (Matthew 24:15-16) and thus as many as half of the Jewish Christians fled to the mountains. The remaining half stuck it out, reproduced, and grew in number until the Bar Khokba revolt. There, Rabbi Akiva gave Bar Kosiba a messianic title in an effort to rally the Jews against the Romans. The remaining Jewish Christians would not fight for the sovereignty of their homeland under the banner of a false messiah, and they too fled the area. From that point on, within just 20 years (by 150AD...ish), the face of Christianity, the visible open face, was more Greek than Jewish. Animosity that began with the actions of the Pharisees, took on a fever pitch by the Greek Christians and the Jews began to be called "Christ-Killers" (Justin Martyr around 150AD in “Dialogue with Trypho”) and were maligned in other ways as seen in the homily Peri Pascha, Melito of Sardis (circa middle of the second century) where it was stated, “God was murdered” by the Jews, of course. These writings and MANY MORE I can produce, set the tone for our paradigm and as we move forward in time, this becomes the mindset of Christians and is what we are “born into” which shapes how we view Scripture as we read it. That is really important but rarely considered... if a decision is made or a conclusion reached and is accepted by the religious culture... then any dissension is lost after the opposing generation dies off. We are 1600-1700 YEARS after many decrees were passed that were designed to make us appear less Jewish. So, we are NOW "born into" a religious culture that has no Jewish connection at all EVEN IF Christianity was considered a sect of Judaism in the first century.

Anyway... back to 150AD...ish..... the Greeks who were becoming Christians had already been keeping Sunday (they were sun worshipers). And, since the Greeks tended to look for ways to spiritualize reality, the idea of setting Sunday aside because Yeshua was raised (really Saturday night) on that day was a natural fit for them and they began to do it in force. By the time The Council of Laodicea (canon 29) is made that prohibits resting on the “Jewish Sabbath,” it was already pretty much a foregone conclusion and the practice of the day. But we are now talking about more than 300 YEARS since the ascension. Look how much more liberally so many in our culture view the Constitution (and how much more so should HRC win) in just 240 years. When it comes to practice, what we are talking about is over 300 years and an entire CULTURE removed... no longer Jewish but Greek. No longer function but form.

Still, you will find NO Scripture that sets apart Sunday, none. Not only that, you will find Catholics claiming that they are responsible for the move, at least officially.

"It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church." Priest Brady, in an address reported in the Elizabeth, NJ News on March 18, 1903

"Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ... in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope." Our Sunday Visitor, February 5, 1950

Which is the Sabbath day? Saturday is the Sabbath day. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday? We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." Rev. Peter Geiermann C.S.S.R., The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

"Must not a sensible Protestant doubt seriously, when he finds that even the Bible is not followed as a rule by his co-religionists? Surely, when he sees them baptize infants, abrogate the Jewish Sabbath, and observe Sunday for which there is no Scriptural authority; when he finds them neglect to wash one another's feet, which is expressly commanded, and eat blood and things strangled, which are expressly prohibited in Scripture. He must doubt, if he think at all. ... Should not the Protestant doubt when he finds that he himself holds tradition as a guide? Yes, if he would but reflect that he has nothing but Catholic tradition for keeping the Sunday holy." Controversial Catechism, Stephen Keenan, New Edition, revised by Rev. George Cormack, published in London by Burns & Oates, Limited - New York, Cincinnati, Chicago: Benzinger Brothers, 1896, pp. 6-7

So, if you want to sway my view, show me SCRIPTURE that moves the Sabbath to Sunday or otherwise sets Sunday apart, makes it holy, from the other days. If man lives not by bread but by "every word of God," then show me in the Word of God where we set Sunday aside. I keep Saturday because I can find no mandate to move the Sabbath nor abolish it. Eve if you view it as "a shadow," what it points to have NOT come to pass yet. You will take communion (something first done in a Passover Sedar) and communion points BACK to something already completed, and then not take part in something that points to something that has yet to come to pass. I find that, personally, to be inconsistent.

excellent post!

i'm especially glad that you said:

"So, if you want to sway my view, show me SCRIPTURE that moves the Sabbath to Sunday or otherwise sets Sunday apart, makes it holy, from the other days."

no one on this forum has answered this.

Ken Rank · Oct 15, 2016

JohnRabbit said:
excellent post!

i'm especially glad that you said:

"So, if you want to sway my view, show me SCRIPTURE that moves the Sabbath to Sunday or otherwise sets Sunday apart, makes it holy, from the other days."

no one on this forum has answered this.

And with all respect to them, John, they won't not because they don't want to but because they can't. Money (large amounts) have been offered many times in the past for anyone to show that Sunday is set apart in Scripture. They can't do it... they can show outside of Scripture many examples of people keeping it by around 150AD. But that is roughly 120 years AFTER the ascension... and there is no Scripture. If man shall not live by bread alone but by "every word of God," then somewhere in the Word of God has to be a mandate for Sunday. If there isn't, then it isn't the Word of God and is instead the word of man.

For those who keep Sunday, that last sentence was not meant to insult, it is simply a fact. If there is nothing in Scripture that gives us Sunday observance, then the mandate "must" come from man. The "Word" is the final authority, not tradition.

BABerean2 · Oct 15, 2016

Ken Rank said:
For those who keep Sunday, that last sentence was not meant to insult, it is simply a fact. If there is nothing in Scripture that gives us Sunday observance, then the mandate "must" come from man. The "Word" is the final authority, not tradition.

Really...

Act 20:7　 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.　

1Co 16:1　 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.　
1Co 16:2　 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.　

...............................................
The Sabbath is the "sign" of the Old Covenant.

Exo 31:12　 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,　
Exo 31:13　 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.　
Exo 31:14　 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.　
Exo 31:15　 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.　
Exo 31:16　 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.　
Exo 31:17　 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.　
Exo 31:18　 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.　

...........................................................

Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant at the Cross and brought in the New Covenant. God ripped the temple veil in half showing that the Old Covenant system is now "obsolete".

Heb 7:12　 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.　

Heb 8:13　 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.　
(KJV)

Are you living on Mount Sinai or on Mount Zion?

The Word is the final authority. Amen.

.

Bob S · Oct 15, 2016

pat34lee said:
The new covenant which is not in force yet.
How do people miss the obvious, that they
do not have the law written on their heart?
When 2 Christians can't even agree on what
is law and what is sin, there is a problem.

It goes right back to not believing the Word.
There is no Jew or gentile, no male or female.
One law and one salvation for all.

If the new covenant is not yet in force then why are you not rebuilding the Temple and restoring Torah to its original rulings. Your theory is nothing but a farce. You claim it to make your brand of Christianity work. Of course it would not work if you recognized the real truth. Do you observe the last supper and if you do why? You know it is part of the new covenant. By the way grace is also part of the new covenant. Without grace you are fully under the penalty of the death decree of the 10 commandments. 2Cor3:7-11.

Heb 7:
11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:

“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

Bob S · Oct 15, 2016

Ken Rank said:
And with all respect to them, John, they won't not because they don't want to but because they can't. Money (large amounts) have been offered many times in the past for anyone to show that Sunday is set apart in Scripture. They can't do it... they can show outside of Scripture many examples of people keeping it by around 150AD. But that is roughly 120 years AFTER the ascension... and there is no Scripture. If man shall not live by bread alone but by "every word of God," then somewhere in the Word of God has to be a mandate for Sunday. If there isn't, then it isn't the Word of God and is instead the word of man.

For those who keep Sunday, that last sentence was not meant to insult, it is simply a fact. If there is nothing in Scripture that gives us Sunday observance, then the mandate "must" come from man. The "Word" is the final authority, not tradition.

You are legally correct Ken. Sunday is not a required day of worship. We cannot claim the $$$ because it is not there. The fact is there are many verses in the New Testament that tell us we are not under Torah. That being a fact, and you know all the verses, then we also are not under all the ritual laws you are trying to push on other Christians. Do what you will, but don't keep trying to push falsehood on well meaning Christians or even those who have no faith.

When we teach others to love others as Jesus loves us we know for sure we are teaching the real truth God would have us teach.

Bob S · Oct 15, 2016

Ken, do you also believe the new covenant is yet to be ratified? If not please explain when Jesus will once again shed His blood to ratify the covenant. And please explain why you are not rebuilding the Temple which was the focal point of Torah. How can you be Torah compliant without the Temple?

Steve Petersen · Oct 15, 2016

BABerean2 said:
Really...

Act 20:7　 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.　

1Co 16:1　 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.　
1Co 16:2　 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.　

...............................................
The Sabbath is the "sign" of the Old Covenant.

Exo 31:12　 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,　
Exo 31:13　 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.　
Exo 31:14　 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.　
Exo 31:15　 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.　
Exo 31:16　 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.　
Exo 31:17　 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.　
Exo 31:18　 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.　

...........................................................

Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant at the Cross and brought in the New Covenant. God ripped the temple veil in half showing that the Old Covenant system is now "obsolete".

Heb 7:12　 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.　

Heb 8:13　 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.　
(KJV)

Are you living on Mount Sinai or on Mount Zion?

The Word is the final authority. Amen.

.

The first day of the week begins sundown Saturday in Judaism in Jesus' day. So his resurrection could have occurred anytime after sundown. Curiously, there is an ancient Jewish custom of gathering to end the Sabbath. It is called Havdallah. It involved lighting of candles, smelling sweet spices, and partaking from a cup of wine, with all the appropriate blessings.

The candle lighting aspect may be preserved in the Easter ceremony in the Eastern Orthodox church called Holy Fire.

Bob S · Oct 15, 2016

Steve Petersen said:
The first day of the week begins sundown Saturday in Judaism in Jesus' day. So his resurrection could have occurred anytime after sundown. Curiously, there is an ancient Jewish custom of gathering to end the Sabbath. It is called Havdallah. It involved lighting of candles, smelling sweet spices, and partaking from a cup of wine, with all the appropriate blessings.

The candle lighting aspect may be preserved in the Easter ceremony in the Eastern Orthodox church called Holy Fire.

What might be your point? Their gathering could have taken place anytime during the first day and might have ended during the night of the second day. Since we also know that bread was served and no mention of wine that your comment was not for this Havdallah thing. Since it was a custom and not a Biblical requirement I hardly think it is noteworthy.

Steve Petersen · Oct 15, 2016

Bob S said:
What might be your point? Their gathering could have taken place anytime during the first day and might have ended during the night of the second day. Since we also know that bread was served and no mention of wine that your comment was not for this Havdallah thing. Since it was a custom and not a Biblical requirement I hardly think it is noteworthy.

Whatever dude.

Bob S · Oct 15, 2016

Steve Petersen said:
Whatever dude.

Great post. I suppose "dude" is the best you could come up with. I am neither a westerner nor a city slicker. I live in the mountains of Tennessee so you might better describe me as being a "hillbily".

Ken Rank · Oct 16, 2016

Bob S said:
You are legally correct Ken. Sunday is not a required day of worship. We cannot claim the $$$ because it is not there. The fact is there are many verses in the New Testament that tell us we are not under Torah. That being a fact, and you know all the verses, then we also are not under all the ritual laws you are trying to push on other Christians. Do what you will, but don't keep trying to push falsehood on well meaning Christians or even those who have no faith.

When we teach others to love others as Jesus loves us we know for sure we are teaching the real truth God would have us teach.

"Under the" is idiomatic, well understood in the day. We are not under the law, meaning, we are not guilty. We are now under un-merited favor, meaning, we have been declared innocent. But neither our lack of guilt or un-merited favor abrogate the commandments, God still expects us to walk in His ways. We SHOW our love for God by obeying, hence John saying, "This is the love of God, that we obey his commandments." The trouble you and others have, and I said this in one of my first posts, is that when somebody like me says "obey" or "law" or "commandments" you HEAR, "unto salvation." We are not saved by obedience, we are not saved by works, we are not saved by walking in commandments... but the saved (if you will) obey, work, or walk in the commandments. If you say, "I love God" and then don't obey I really don't know how you can stand in harmony with John's, "This is the love of God" comment.

Anyway... do as you are led, it is between you and God. I don't want you to follow me, I don't want you to do ANYTHING that stands against your understanding of Scripture and current relationship with God. Please remember these words the next time you make a "false testimony" against me about pushing falsehood. I am pushing nothing, I am answering your questions and you simply don't agree with the answers.

Ken Rank · Oct 16, 2016

Bob S said:
What might be your point? Their gathering could have taken place anytime during the first day and might have ended during the night of the second day. Since we also know that bread was served and no mention of wine that your comment was not for this Havdallah thing. Since it was a custom and not a Biblical requirement I hardly think it is noteworthy.

Funny thing, a Jewish Christian recognizes this right away, it is obvious to somebody from that culture.

This is simple, Bob.... the biblical day begins and ends at sundown. If Paul preached late into the night... then his preaching was done one what we call Saturday night or Sunday night. If the latter, then since sundown marks the end of the day, "Sunday night" is the beginning of the SECOND day of the week. Since the only "night" of the first day is Saturday night, then he preached after dinner on Saturday night. Since we KNOW they gathered... STILL GATHER .... for the end of Sabbath meal then this is all we are looking at. No mandate to move a day, no nothing but an end of Sabbath meal followed by a teaching.

There is "nothing" that says gather on Sunday. I don't care if you do, but don't sit there taking a high a mighty position about biblical requirements and what is and is not in Scripture when you gather on a meeting day that PLAINLY comes out of tradition and not Scripture.

Ken Rank · Oct 16, 2016

Bob S said:
Ken, do you also believe the new covenant is yet to be ratified? If not please explain when Jesus will once again shed His blood to ratify the covenant. And please explain why you are not rebuilding the Temple which was the focal point of Torah. How can you be Torah compliant without the Temple?

When he returns. The mark of the new covenant, the law written on the minds and hearts, is not complete for if it were, there would be no sin and no division (not to mention no need to teach every man his brother for all will know the Lord... as the text states). This is a process Bob, you have not been perfected yet, made incorruptible... this is a PROCESS. It begins when you turn to him... that is when you get a DOWNPAYMENT toward the completed work in the form of the Holy Spirit (see 2 Corinthians 1:22 and 2 Corinthians 5:5) and when he returns, the work will be completed.

I am not interested in the physical Temple, we stand as the Temple of God but there will be a physical Temple and there is a reason for it. Since your questions and points have taken on a mocking and condescending tone, I won't both spending any time on this point since this is a Sabbath thread and you wouldn't receive it anyway. It would become fodder for any future point you'll try to make and seeing it comes from the Word of God, I don't desire to see it used that way. We don't have to agree, but we can remain brotherly for we are brothers, whether you like it or not. What Yeshua did binds us...

JohnRabbit · Oct 16, 2016

Ken Rank said:
When he returns. The mark of the new covenant, the law written on the minds and hearts, is not complete for if it were, there would be no sin and no division (not to mention no need to teach every man his brother for all will know the Lord... as the text states).

this is the salient point that seems to be missed by most people.

good stuff, Ken!

To whom and why God gave the Sabbaths?

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