To whom and why God gave the Sabbaths?

[Bob S]

You might read Deuteronomy 30:1-6 and all of Hosea 1... the church doesn't. In these places (and many more I can supply) we find that God did indeed promise to punish Israel, scatter them into the nations, call them, "not my people." But those same calls for punishment are also laden with promises to bring them back. In the Deuteronomy verses, God says that if you return (repent) and obey His voice that He would turn the captivity into freedom, gather them back from where He scattered them, and circumcise their hearts. In Hosea He says that, "in the place where I said you are not my people, there I will call you Sons of the Living God." This is what the church doesn't understand and why we have replacement theology.

Yes, God did give them many chances to repent and serve Him by observing the covenant. They ended up right back into chaos and Jesus came to once again bail them out. This time it is with an entirely new covenant with better promises.

What is not understood by some is the fact that the old covenant with its ritual laws have been abrogated. To deny that they have been is to deny Jesus' Apostles Paul and John.

 

[Bob S]

I mean the common teaching today is that the church replaced Israel. I reject that notion based on scores of Scripture and instead view us as part of Israel. This would allow much to remain harmonious in Scripture, namely, that the covenant (Jer. 31/Heb 8) is made only with Judah and Israel... and that the New Jerusalem has 12 gates, one for each tribe. There is no additional entity that gets it own gate or has a separate covenant through which they make it in. Well, not found in Scripture anyway.

The word ekklesia (church, called out ones) is used in the LXX to describe ISRAEL at Sinai. In English, it would say that the church was at, and arguably was even started, at Sinai.

Israel rejected Jesus. Why would Jesus want Christians to be part of a defunct nation? That is absurd my friend. We are all grafted into the tree of life, Jesus, the same way. The branches that were on the tree withered and died because they rejected the Light, Jesus.

I am sure God has a special passageway for all who have chosen to be part of the body of Christ. I, for one, am not worried about which gate I will be passing through. In fact, the Jews that come to Christ are so intermingled as far as belonging to one tribe or another that it would be impossible to figure what gate they would enter. Even Jesus heritage would be mixed. Think about it, which gate would Jesus enter if He had to enter through a gate?

 

[Ken Rank]

Israel and a mixed multitude. The multitude represented believers of all nations.

The mixed multitude became as much a part of "Israel" as Israel. Think about these 3 things that happened at Sinai involving the foreigners who came out of Egypt with Israel:

1. They were to be treated as if native born
2. The Torah was give to them as well and if they kept it they were blessed, and if they didn't they were cursed
3. They assimilated into the tribes they traveled with.

They became a part of Israel and seeing any records were destroyed long ago, not one Jewish person alive today can prove they are not a descendant of the foreigners.

 

[Ken Rank]

Yes, we read of the accounts of God restoring Israel. He did that for them yet they still had rebellion and refused to keep the covenant. Finally, Jesus came and once an for all settled their non compliance to the covenant by fulfilling it and ushering in the new covenant ratified by Jesus own blood. It is those who will not recognize that Jesus has instituted the new covenant and are try to cling to ritual laws given only to Israel in the old covenant who do not understand.

Those ritual laws that you are trying to observe were for a specific nation. They have nothing to do with Christianity. Why you keep trying to push them on others is a mystery. Well, not quite a mystery when we consider that whoever started the movement had to be different than the established churches in order to sell their new group. Just take a look at all the groups that have started over the years. Each one has a special selling point and if those exposed to those groups do not think for themselves the surely will be suckered in by joining. I happen to know what I am writing about because I was once one of those suckers.

I disagree entirely but it doesn't matter if you agree with me or not. Israel (the Northern Kingdom) was taken into Assyria in 722BC and has never returned. Judah (the Jews) were taken into Babylon in 585BC and DID come home. As for the "ritual laws?" Leviticus 23 calls the Feasts, "the feasts of the LORD," and He also calls them, "My feasts." They are not Jewish feasts, they belong to the Creator who used them to point to the work of Yeshua. As for your last comment, I will ignore it because you clearly have no grasp of history. Acts 21:20 tells us that as many as 20,000 + Jews (look at the Greek, not the English) both believed Yeshua was Messiah AND remained zealous for the Torah. Your own messiah, the one you call Lord, the one you claim to submit to, the one you claim walked the walk God desired... our model... was doing things you are no demeaning. How could doing what our Lord did be wrong? He was, is... the model we are supposed to follow.

 

[Ken Rank]

Israel rejected Jesus. Why would Jesus want Christians to be part of a defunct nation? That is absurd my friend. We are all grafted into the tree of life, Jesus, the same way. The branches that were on the tree withered and died because they rejected the Light, Jesus.

Again, Acts 21:20 states that as many as 20,000+ Jews in Judea believed Yeshua was messiah. ALL of his early followers were Jewish, he was Jewish... he even returns as the Lion of the TRIBE OF JEWdah. So Israel didn't reject Yeshua, some Jews did, some didn't... and I could share why but I am not sure you want to hear why.

Christianity in the first century was a sect of Judaism, NOT a new religion. As I said before, and as you ignored.... the covenant (Jer. 31:31-34 and Heb. 8:8-11) do NOT mention gentiles... only Judah (the Jews) and Israel (you). The New Jerusalem has 12 Gates, one for each of the 12 tribes of Israel... there is no 13th gate for the gentiles. Do you even know what a gentile is?

 

[pat34lee]

Scripture please. Even if your statement would be true, the "mixed multitude" had to become circumcised and agree with the covenant given only to Israel

Were Eskimos, Aborigines, Chinese and etc. represented? [/COLOR][/COLOR]

Exactly. The same applies today. We must become part of Israel.

All physical nations didn't have to be there, just enough gentiles to represent them.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Israel and a mixed multitude. The multitude represented believers of all nations.

Hardly. I am quite certain that there was not a single black African, a single Eastern Asian, a single Native American, a single Maori, a single Micronesian, etc. among them. The ones among them were fellow Semites from Egypt who underwent ritual circumcision in order to enter the covenant made on Mount Sinai.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Exactly. The same applies today. We must become part of Israel.

All physical nations didn't have to be there, just enough gentiles to represent them.

And, pray tell, how many was enough? My ancestors did not have a single representative there.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Again, Acts 21:20 states that as many as 20,000+ Jews in Judea believed Yeshua was messiah. ALL of his early followers were Jewish, he was Jewish... he even returns as the Lion of the TRIBE OF JEWdah. So Israel didn't reject Yeshua, some Jews did, some didn't... and I could share why but I am not sure you want to hear why.

Christianity in the first century was a sect of Judaism, NOT a new religion. As I said before, and as you ignored.... the covenant (Jer. 31:31-34 and Heb. 8:8-11) do NOT mention gentiles... only Judah (the Jews) and Israel (you). The New Jerusalem has 12 Gates, one for each of the 12 tribes of Israel... there is no 13th gate for the gentiles. Do you even know what a gentile is?

It seems that you do not know what a Jew is since you conflate Jews and Gentiles.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No, because the first thing Moses did was bring the outline down to the elders of Israel who had to agree or not. Moses was simply a conduit and a picture of messiah.

That brought a smile to my face. I can just see Moses coming down to the camp where the elders and all the people were enjoying a drunken orgy worshipping the golden calf that Aaron had fashioned for them. Moses walks up to one and says, "Excuse me. Can we call a meeting to ratify these outline ideas that I wrote down these past forty days?" The elder looks at him and says, "Forget that idea. We like Aaron's idea much better and already had the meeting without you."

 

[bbbbbbb]

My first thought [answer] was with a smile was "MOSES" .....
Perspective wise, could it also be said that YHWH made a covenant with MOSES on Mount Sinai ?

Also Perspective wise again, how often did YHWH HIMSELF (or Y'SHUA HIMSELF) write anything (not thru an emissary) ? Any idea on this ?
(how often thru all the history of the world)

Only once.

 

[bugkiller]

No, if a meat is unclean to eat, it is not food, any more
than dirt or excrement is food. It can be eaten, possibly
even be nutritious to some degree. But it is still not food.

Say it is possible though. Why would God let Noah eat
unclean food? He knew the difference (Genesis 7:2)
Maybe it was a limited permission, so the animals could
have time to repopulate the earth. Otherwise, between
being sacrifices and food sources, not to mention prey to
other animals, some may have been killed off rather quickly.

3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. Gen 9

Please explain how this leaves out pork or even rats as BobRyan suggests.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

"Unclean food" is almost an oxymoron. There are clean and unclean animals, but none of the unclean animals are called "food," they are not even food. There is no scripture anywhere, as you know Pat, that says that anything that was previously not called food that turns it into food. Not one verse.

My guess is you have not read Gen 9.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Pardon me? You don't mean "we" as in ecclesia, do you ? Rather "we" as in society has a segment outside of us teaching 'replacement theology' , right ?

Your argument would hold water if "ecclesia" was only used in a religious sense and never in a secular sense.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I mean the common teaching today is that the church replaced Israel. I reject that notion based on scores of Scripture and instead view us as part of Israel. This would allow much to remain harmonious in Scripture, namely, that the covenant (Jer. 31/Heb 8) is made only with Judah and Israel... and that the New Jerusalem has 12 gates, one for each tribe. There is no additional entity that gets it own gate or has a separate covenant through which they make it in. Well, not found in Scripture anyway.

The word ekklesia (church, called out ones) is used in the LXX to describe ISRAEL at Sinai. In English, it would say that the church was at, and arguably was even started, at Sinai.

No way because Romans 11 says God is not finished with Israel.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Israel and a mixed multitude. The multitude represented believers of all nations.

One should note that Moses was told to call the COI and not a multitude, much less a mixed multitude.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Yes, we read of the accounts of God restoring Israel. He did that for them yet they still had rebellion and refused to keep the covenant. Finally, Jesus came and once an for all settled their non compliance to the covenant by fulfilling it and ushering in the new covenant ratified by Jesus own blood. It is those who will not recognize that Jesus has instituted the new covenant and are try to cling to ritual laws given only to Israel in the old covenant who do not understand.

Those ritual laws that you are trying to observe were for a specific nation. They have nothing to do with Christianity. Why you keep trying to push them on others is a mystery. Well, not quite a mystery when we consider that whoever started the movement had to be different than the established churches in order to sell their new group. Just take a look at all the groups that have started over the years. Each one has a special selling point and if those exposed to those groups do not think for themselves the surely will be suckered in by joining. I happen to know what I am writing about because I was once one of those suckers.

One of the things that greatly concern me are those who come here claiming to be Christians promoting Judaism.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Scripture please. Even if your statement would be true, the "mixed multitude" had to become circumcised and agree with the covenant given only to Israel Deut 5: Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.

Notice in the scripture that the covenant was with Israel. Others may have come out of Egypt with the Israelites, but the covenant was with Israel. To tell us that there were represented there believers from all nations has to be proved by scripture or you are misrepresenting the Bible. Were Eskimos, Aborigines, Chinese and etc. represented?

It seems to me they have to say even those parts of the Bible they quote from as representing them are in error.

bugkiller

 

[BABerean2]

Christianity in the first century was a sect of Judaism, NOT a new religion.

Someone is very confused...

It is either you or the Apostle Paul.

Gal 4:24　 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.　
Gal 4:25　 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.　
Gal 4:26　 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.　(Hebrews 11:16)
Gal 4:27　 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.　
Gal 4:28　 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.　
Gal 4:29　 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.　
Gal 4:30　 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.　
Gal 4:31　 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


Php 3:2　 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!　
Php 3:3　 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,　
Php 3:4　 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so:　
Php 3:5　 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;　
Php 3:6　 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.　
Php 3:7　 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.　
Php 3:8　 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ　
Php 3:9　 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;　
Php 3:10　 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,　
Php 3:11　 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.　


Paul counted his former reliance on the Law of Moses (known today as Judaism), as "dung".


G4657
σκύβαλον
skubalon
skoo'-bal-on
Neuter of a presumed derivative of G1519 and G2965 and G906; what is thrown to the dogs, that is, refuse (ordure): - dung.

Total KJV occurrences: 1

.

 

[Ken Rank]

It seems that you do not know what a Jew is since you conflate Jews and Gentiles.

A Jew is one who is form the tribe of Judah or a descendant of the same. A Jew was also a member of the Southern Kingdom (which included Judah, Benjamin, and half of Levi) or a descendant of the same. And/or a Jew is a member of Judaism. A gentile is one from the nations. In 1828 when Webster standardized the English language... and when the word gentile was first used in our English bibles... the word meant, "a pagan, a heathen, one who is not a Christian or a Jew." MODERN dictionaries define that word as, "a follower of Christ who is not Jewish." In the days leading from Tyndale through about 1900... a "gentile Christian" was an oxymoron. One can't be a pagan and a follower of Christ.