The Sabbath is the 'Lords Day', not Sunday.

[Studyman]

Are you indicating that we are able to be saved without the shed blood of Jesus?

Of course not.

It is not what we do, it is what Jesus has done.

It's not what you preach or what this world's religions "who come in Christ's Name" that you have adopted preach. It's what the Inspired word of God teaches. This is the crux of our disagreement.

We are not saved by what we do.

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Out works are nothing but filthy rags. IS 64:6.

Yes, your righteousness, your religious traditions, high days and doctrines, your judgments, your religion, is nothing more than a filthy rag. Paul confirms this speaking about the mainstream preachers of the world God placed him in, and the religion they promoted in his time.

Rom. 10: 3 For they being "ignorant" of God's righteousness, (Holy, Just, Good and perfect) and going about to establish "their own" righteousness, ( filthy rags, deceptions, unclean, unholy) have not submitted "themselves" unto the righteousness of God.


The deceiver, as is his practice, uses some of God's Word to deceive men. A perfect example of this is here, where you use IS. 64 to promote a religion in which "Submitting oneself to God's Righteousness" makes God's righteousness a filthy Rag. As is my practice, I like to post the actual Scriptures for review and discussion, as the Jesus "of the Bible" did. So, lets see what Isaiah really said.

Is. 64: 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all "our righteousnesses" are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our "iniquities", like the wind, have taken us away.

So you can see that it wasn't God's Righteousness that is the Filthy Rag, as you imply, that "took them away", but their own righteousness.

The Jesus "of the Bible" saw this doctrine you have been snared to promote coming, and inspired this to be written;

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let "no man" deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Sadly, "Many" who come in Christ's Name, who call Jesus "Lord, Lord, don't really care about what is actually written, they are too busy preserving their "own righteousness" and hiding it from the LIGHT.

By the way, what version of the scriptures translates "justified" as being "saved".

Thanks for the question. It pretty simple really, I need "saved" from death, because I have rebelled against God and Transgressed God's Commandments which leads to my death. If My Sin is removed, where is the condemnation? Now the Bible teaches that Jesus offered His Life to God, to remove my sins. This is called "God's Grace" which saved me from the death I incurred because of my choice to transgress. I didn't "SEE" Him do this, but I believe that HE did.

Removing Sin, "and remembering it no more" is saying it's "Just as if" I never sinned, or as it is said, Justified. If my sin is removed, then where is the death? Am I not "Saved" from death? Isn't that the reason why my Sins need removed in the first place?

Romans 6:14
For sin (Death) shall not have dominion over you:

Sin causes "DEATH". If my Sin is removed, then Death by Sin, has no more dominion over me, Yes?

for you are not under the law, (DEAD)

The Law says, "The soul that sins shall die", the wages of sin is death. If my Sin is removed, then I am no longer "DEAD".

but under grace. (ALIVE)

My sins removed by God through the offering of HIS Righteous Son, takes away my death, and brings "LIFE" to me.

Romans 6:15
What then? shall we sin, (Which brought us death) because we are not under the law, (Not DEAD) but under grace? (ALIVE) "God forbid". (That means NO Bob, I shouldn't continue to transgress God's commandments, just because I am alive again.)

Why Not?????

Well, the verse you omitted, that you didn't post, the most important part of this Question that Paul is addressing, answers the question. But to acknowledge it, exposes a huge problem with the religious philosophy adopted be "many" who come in Christ's Name, that you are promoting, so I can see why you wouldn't want to talk about it.

But since I have no religion to promote and preserve, I am good to examine and discuss all scriptures. Let's see why Paul teaches that the Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile, shouldn't continue in Sin, even though they are "NOT" under the Law.

16 Know ye not, (Don't you know Bob?) that to whom ye "yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin "unto death", or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have "obeyed" from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of (God's) righteousness.

There you go Bob. Transgression of God's Law still brings death, obedience to God's Law still brings Righteousness.

The reason why I left the religions whose religious traditions, philosophies and doctrines you are promoting, is because of these tactics they use, the deceptions they are exercised in, and the refusal to engage in any honest examination of Scriptures.

Galatians 2:16
know that a person is not justified by the "works of the law", but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Yes, the Passover Lamb was slain while Israel was still in Egypt. Christ died for us, while we were yet in Sin.

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, (Dead) but under grace? (Alive) God forbid. That means NO Bob.

So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified

Know ye not, (Bob) that to whom ye yield "yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Yes indeed Studying, my seducer is Jesus Christ, through his ambassador, Paul. It appears yours is the Lord Moses.

You might be seduced by the image of God in the likeness of a long-haired men's hair shampoo model promoted by the RCC and her daughters. But clearly, not the Jesus "of the Bible". And in all the years we have tangled, you have never actually engaged in an honest discussion of what is actually written, although I have tried many times to reason with you in Scriptures. But Jesus told me you would not be persuaded.

"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Only in your eyes and a few others who will not take the word of the Apostles who taught the covenant Jesus proclaimed to them starting at Pentecost.

You are promoting one of the many religions of this world, who come in Christ's Name, which exists in the world God placed us in Bob. In time past, you adopted and promoted the religious doctrines, traditions and philosophies of the religious business/sect of the SDA, and no doubt was zealous to promote their religious philosophy, demeaning and ridiculing all those who didn't adopt your religious philosophy then. Now you have abandoned that religion, and joined with another, and are now promoting their religious philosophies, traditions, high days and judgments with the same zeal.

We have been here many times, and all I ever really wanted was an honest, unbiased discussion about what is actually written. But all you do is cherry pick scriptures which can be used to further the religious franchise or business you have adopted at this time in your life.

Nevertheless, it is good to have lively discussions regarding scriptures given the wickedness of this world, and the warning of the Jesus "of the Bible". Who knows who is reading along and might be blessed from hearing the perspective os a man who believes All that is written.

2 Pet. 3: 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Thanks for the platform Bob.

 

[Bob S]

Hi Studyman, NOT under the Law means just that, man kind is not under the dictates of Torah. We are under the laws of the New and better covenant. New Covenant Law are very simple and mostly dealing with morality. Correct me if I am wrong, your rendition of how we are to regard our duty and love to God is to keep the Sabbath of the now annulled law of the old covenant. You may have more commands from the Sinai covenant that you adhere. Since New Covenant Christians and Jews are not under the laws of the Sinai covenant we need not adhere to a covenant that no longer exists You, on the other hand, feel that you are subject to commands from the Sinai covenant and try to chastise those who do not think as you do. You tell me I cherry pick scripture. To me that means you deny what those "cherry picked" scriptures have to tell us.

You tell me "You are promoting one of the many religions of this world, who come in Christ's Name, which exists in the world God placed us in Bob. In time past, you adopted and promoted the religious doctrines, traditions and philosophies of the religious business/sect of the SDA, and no doubt was zealous to promote their religious philosophy, demeaning and ridiculing all those who didn't adopt your religious philosophy then. Now you have abandoned that religion, and joined with another, and are now promoting their religious philosophies, traditions, high days and judgments with the same zeal. am promoting one of their religious philosophies, traditions, high days and judgments with the same zeal."

I tell you you are so very wrong in your analysis. Why, in the first place, do you think you know where I get my beliefs and secondly why try to put me in a box.. I get my beliefs directly from the scriptures I present to you and you supposedly deny.

Then you brought a big laugh when you wrote: "You might be seduced by the image of God in the likeness of a long-haired men's hair shampoo model promoted by the RCC and her daughters. But clearly, not the Jesus "of the Bible". And in all the years we have tangled, you have never actually engaged in an honest discussion of what is actually written, although I have tried many times to reason with you in Scriptures. But Jesus told me you would not be persuaded." So, Jesus told you that huh??? Seems like a full blown baseless put down you conjured up without fully engaging your better knowledge. I wonder why., was it it make yourself seem superior by choosing to degrade me??? Sounds suspicious to me.

"It's not what you preach or what this world's religions "who come in Christ's Name" that you have adopted preach. It's what the Inspired word of God teaches. This is the crux of our disagreement." Again, I only find what I believe from scripture. Of course you are free to believe what you do. The fact is that what you believe could be wrong and according to what you present I believe is wrong.

 

[Gary K]

Hi Studyman, NOT under the Law means just that, man kind is not under the dictates of Torah. We are under the laws of the New and better covenant. New Covenant Law are very simple and mostly dealing with morality. Correct me if I am wrong, your rendition of how we are to regard our duty and love to God is to keep the Sabbath of the now annulled law of the old covenant. You may have more commands from the Sinai covenant that you adhere. Since New Covenant Christians and Jews are not under the laws of the Sinai covenant we need not adhere to a covenant that no longer exists You, on the other hand, feel that you are subject to commands from the Sinai covenant and try to chastise those who do not think as you do. You tell me I cherry pick scripture. To me that means you deny what those "cherry picked" scriptures have to tell us.

You tell me "You are promoting one of the many religions of this world, who come in Christ's Name, which exists in the world God placed us in Bob. In time past, you adopted and promoted the religious doctrines, traditions and philosophies of the religious business/sect of the SDA, and no doubt was zealous to promote their religious philosophy, demeaning and ridiculing all those who didn't adopt your religious philosophy then. Now you have abandoned that religion, and joined with another, and are now promoting their religious philosophies, traditions, high days and judgments with the same zeal. am promoting one of their religious philosophies, traditions, high days and judgments with the same zeal."

I tell you you are so very wrong in your analysis. Why, in the first place, do you think you know where I get my beliefs and secondly why try to put me in a box.. I get my beliefs directly from the scriptures I present to you and you supposedly deny.

Then you brought a big laugh when you wrote: "You might be seduced by the image of God in the likeness of a long-haired men's hair shampoo model promoted by the RCC and her daughters. But clearly, not the Jesus "of the Bible". And in all the years we have tangled, you have never actually engaged in an honest discussion of what is actually written, although I have tried many times to reason with you in Scriptures. But Jesus told me you would not be persuaded." So, Jesus told you that huh??? Seems like a full blown baseless put down you conjured up without fully engaging your better knowledge. I wonder why., was it it make yourself seem superior by choosing to degrade me??? Sounds suspicious to me.

"It's not what you preach or what this world's religions "who come in Christ's Name" that you have adopted preach. It's what the Inspired word of God teaches. This is the crux of our disagreement." Again, I only find what I believe from scripture. Of course you are free to believe what you do. The fact is that what you believe could be wrong and according to what you present I believe is wrong.

If you believe it is wrong for others to put you "in a box" why do you that to others? Isn't that a sin according to Jesus?

Matthew 7: 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

 

[daq]

There is nothing in thou shalt not murder about animals- I am not the one who is adding to scripture.

It says "You shall not ratsach", which is physical murder and-or killing, and it does not stipulate whether that only means other human beings or not: one must add that stipulation in order to get it to say what they want it to say.

Every sacrificial clean animal is called a living soul: you cannot murder or kill what is not living, so the most you can whittle down the commandment, if that is what you feel the need to do, is to say that it means that you shall not murder-kill another living soul, for taking the life of a living soul is murder-killing it.

If only animals could talk, what do you suppose a sheep or a cow would say if you were to ask it whether or not it would be murder to slit its throat, drain its blood, butcher its dead carcass, cook its flesh, and eat it to satisfy the lust of the belly for flesh? for Elohim is surely not going to eat it, and it already belongs to Him anyway.

Jeremiah 7:21-34 LSV
21 Thus said YHWH of Hosts, God of Israel: "Add your burnt-offerings to your sacrifices and eat flesh.
22 For I did not speak with your fathers, || Nor did I command them in the day of My bringing them out of the land of Egypt, || Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice,
23 But this thing I commanded them, saying, || Listen to My voice, || And I have been to you for God, || And you are to Me for a people, || And have walked in all the way that I command you, || So that it is well for you.
24 And they have not listened, nor inclined their ear, || And they walk in the counsels, || [And] in the stubbornness, of their evil hearts, || And are backward and not forward.
25 Even from the day when your fathers || Went out of the land of Egypt until this day, || I send all My servants the prophets to you, || Daily rising early and sending,
26 And they have not listened to Me, || Nor inclined their ear—and they harden their neck, || They have done evil above their fathers.
27 And you have spoken all these words to them, || And they do not listen to you, || And you have called to them, || And they do not answer you.
28 And you have said to them: This [is] the nation that has not listened, || To the voice of its God YHWH, || Nor have they accepted instruction, || Steadfastness has perished, || Indeed, it has been cut off from their mouth.
29 Cut off your crown, and cast [it] away, || And lift up lamentation on high places, || For YHWH has rejected, || And He leaves the generation of His wrath.
30 For the sons of Judah || Have done evil in My eyes," || A declaration of YHWH, || "They have set their abominations in the house || On which My Name is called—to defile it,
31 And have built the high places of Tophet, || That [are] in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, || To burn their sons and their daughters with fire, || Which I did not command, || Nor did it come up on My heart.
32 Therefore, behold, days are coming," || A declaration of YHWH, || "And it is no longer said, The Tophet, || And, Valley of the Son of Hinnom, || But, Valley of the Slaughter, || And they have buried in Tophet—without place.
33 And the carcass of this people has been for food || To a bird of the heavens, and to a beast of the earth, || And there is none troubling.
34 And I have caused to cease from cities of Judah, || And from streets of Jerusalem, || The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, || Voice of bridegroom, and voice of bride, || For the land becomes a desolation!"

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It says "You shall not ratsach", which is physical murder and-or killing, and it does not stipulate whether that only means other human beings or not: one must add that stipulation in order to get it to say what they want it to say.

Every sacrificial clean animal is called a living soul: you cannot murder or kill what is not living, so the most you can whittle down the commandment, if that is what you feel the need to do, is to say that it means that you shall not murder-kill another living soul, for taking the life of a living soul is murder-killing it.

If only animals could talk, what do you suppose a sheep or a cow would say if you were to ask it whether or not it would be murder to slit its throat, drain its blood, butcher its dead carcass, cook its flesh, and eat it to satisfy the lust of the belly for flesh? for Elohim is surely not going to eat it, and it already belongs to Him anyway.

Jeremiah 7:21-34 LSV
21 Thus said YHWH of Hosts, God of Israel: "Add your burnt-offerings to your sacrifices and eat flesh.
22 For I did not speak with your fathers, || Nor did I command them in the day of My bringing them out of the land of Egypt, || Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice,
23 But this thing I commanded them, saying, || Listen to My voice, || And I have been to you for God, || And you are to Me for a people, || And have walked in all the way that I command you, || So that it is well for you.
24 And they have not listened, nor inclined their ear, || And they walk in the counsels, || [And] in the stubbornness, of their evil hearts, || And are backward and not forward.
25 Even from the day when your fathers || Went out of the land of Egypt until this day, || I send all My servants the prophets to you, || Daily rising early and sending,
26 And they have not listened to Me, || Nor inclined their ear—and they harden their neck, || They have done evil above their fathers.
27 And you have spoken all these words to them, || And they do not listen to you, || And you have called to them, || And they do not answer you.
28 And you have said to them: This [is] the nation that has not listened, || To the voice of its God YHWH, || Nor have they accepted instruction, || Steadfastness has perished, || Indeed, it has been cut off from their mouth.
29 Cut off your crown, and cast [it] away, || And lift up lamentation on high places, || For YHWH has rejected, || And He leaves the generation of His wrath.
30 For the sons of Judah || Have done evil in My eyes," || A declaration of YHWH, || "They have set their abominations in the house || On which My Name is called—to defile it,
31 And have built the high places of Tophet, || That [are] in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, || To burn their sons and their daughters with fire, || Which I did not command, || Nor did it come up on My heart.
32 Therefore, behold, days are coming," || A declaration of YHWH, || "And it is no longer said, The Tophet, || And, Valley of the Son of Hinnom, || But, Valley of the Slaughter, || And they have buried in Tophet—without place.
33 And the carcass of this people has been for food || To a bird of the heavens, and to a beast of the earth, || And there is none troubling.
34 And I have caused to cease from cities of Judah, || And from streets of Jerusalem, || The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, || Voice of bridegroom, and voice of bride, || For the land becomes a desolation!"

So your stance is the whole sacrificial system where they were required to sacrifice animals daily for sin was not something the Lord required at that time but they did so on their own accord. Not according to scripture.

Lev 1 The Lord called to Moses and spoke to him from the tent of meeting. He said, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When anyone among you brings an offering to the Lord, bring as your offering an animal from either the herd or the flock.

3 “‘If the offering is a burnt offering from the herd, you are to offer a male without defect. You must present it at the entrance to the tent of meeting so that it will be acceptable to the Lord. 4 You are to lay your hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on your behalf to make atonement for you. 5 You are to slaughter the young bull before the Lord, and then Aaron’s sons the priests shall bring the blood and splash it against the sides of the altar at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 6 You are to skin the burnt offering and cut it into pieces. 7 The sons of Aaron the priest are to put fire on the altar and arrange wood on the fire. 8 Then Aaron’s sons the priests shall arrange the pieces, including the head and the fat, on the wood that is burning on the altar. 9 You are to wash the internal organs and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the Lord.

10 “‘If the offering is a burnt offering from the flock, from either the sheep or the goats, you are to offer a male without defect. 11 You are to slaughter it at the north side of the altar before the Lord, and Aaron’s sons the priests shall splash its blood against the sides of the altar. 12 You are to cut it into pieces, and the priest shall arrange them, including the head and the fat, on the wood that is burning on the altar. 13 You are to wash the internal organs and the legs with water, and the priest is to bring all of them and burn them on the altar. It is a burnt offering, a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the Lord.

14 “‘If the offering to the Lord is a burnt offering of birds, you are to offer a dove or a young pigeon. 15 The priest shall bring it to the altar, wring off the head and burn it on the altar; its blood shall be drained out on the side of the altar. 16 He is to remove the crop and the feathers[a] and throw them down east of the altar where the ashes are. 17 He shall tear it open by the wings, not dividing it completely, and then the priest shall burn it on the wood that is burning on the altar. It is a burnt offering, a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the Lord.

 

[Bob S]

If you believe it is wrong for others to put you "in a box" why do you that to others? Isn't that a sin according to Jesus?

Matthew 7: 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Instead of answering my post you just made another accusation. Great posting, huh!

 

[Gary K]

Instead of answering my post you just made another accusation. Great posting, huh!

You didn't make the post I answered to me.

 

[daq]

So your stance is the whole sacrificial system where they were required to sacrifice animals daily for sin was not something the Lord required at that time but they did so on their own accord. Not according to scripture.

Lev 1 The Lord called to Moses and spoke to him from the tent of meeting. He said, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When anyone among you brings an offering to the Lord, bring as your offering an animal from either the herd or the flock.

3 “‘If the offering is a burnt offering from the herd, you are to offer a male without defect. You must present it at the entrance to the tent of meeting so that it will be acceptable to the Lord. 4 You are to lay your hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on your behalf to make atonement for you. 5 You are to slaughter the young bull before the Lord, and then Aaron’s sons the priests shall bring the blood and splash it against the sides of the altar at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 6 You are to skin the burnt offering and cut it into pieces. 7 The sons of Aaron the priest are to put fire on the altar and arrange wood on the fire. 8 Then Aaron’s sons the priests shall arrange the pieces, including the head and the fat, on the wood that is burning on the altar. 9 You are to wash the internal organs and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the Lord.

10 “‘If the offering is a burnt offering from the flock, from either the sheep or the goats, you are to offer a male without defect. 11 You are to slaughter it at the north side of the altar before the Lord, and Aaron’s sons the priests shall splash its blood against the sides of the altar. 12 You are to cut it into pieces, and the priest shall arrange them, including the head and the fat, on the wood that is burning on the altar. 13 You are to wash the internal organs and the legs with water, and the priest is to bring all of them and burn them on the altar. It is a burnt offering, a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the Lord.

14 “‘If the offering to the Lord is a burnt offering of birds, you are to offer a dove or a young pigeon. 15 The priest shall bring it to the altar, wring off the head and burn it on the altar; its blood shall be drained out on the side of the altar. 16 He is to remove the crop and the feathers[a] and throw them down east of the altar where the ashes are. 17 He shall tear it open by the wings, not dividing it completely, and then the priest shall burn it on the wood that is burning on the altar. It is a burnt offering, a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the Lord.

Take heed how you hear.
The Prophet I quoted surely refers to this passage:

Exodus 15:22-27 KJV
22 So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water.
23 And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah.
24 And the people murmured against Moses, saying, What shall we drink?
25 And he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD shewed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them,
26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.
27 And they came to Elim, where were twelve wells of water, and threescore and ten palm trees: and they encamped there by the waters.

The difference between אילם and אילים is the stumbling-block doctrine of Balaam.

 

[Bob S]

You didn't make the post I answered to me.

Yep, I didn't. I will give myself 10 lashes with a wet noodle. Sorry about the accusation, that is what I get for assuming.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Take heed how you hear.
The Prophet I quoted surely refers to this passage:

Exodus 15:22-27 KJV
22 So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water.
23 And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah.
24 And the people murmured against Moses, saying, What shall we drink?
25 And he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD shewed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them,
26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.
27 And they came to Elim, where were twelve wells of water, and threescore and ten palm trees: and they encamped there by the waters.

The difference between אילם and אילים is the stumbling-block doctrine of Balaam.

Basically what you are teaching is that the Lord is a sinner- because He ordered the sacrifice (murder from what you claimed) of lambs and other animal sacrifices such as for Passover and as sin offerings. They sacrificed animals daily for sin offerings which is what the whole earthy temple was set up for- although it always pointed to something greater.

Exodus 12 Now the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, 2 “This month shall be your beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you. 3 Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying: ‘On the tenth of this month every man shall take for himself a lamb, according to the house of his father, a lamb for a household. 4 And if the household is too small for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next to his house take it according to the number of the persons; according to each man’s need you shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without[a] blemish, a male [b]of the first year. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats. 6 Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at twilight

The OT is filled with the sacrificial system that involved sacrificing animals for the forgiveness of sins. It was never what God wanted, He preferred obedience 1 Samuel 15:22, but due to disobedience animal sacrifices happened until the Seed would come who became our Passover Lamb. 1 Cor 5:7

 

[Gary K]

Basically what you are teaching is that the Lord is a sinner- because He ordered the sacrifice (murder from what you claimed) of lambs and other animal sacrifices such as for Passover and as sin offerings. They sacrificed animals daily for sin offerings which is what the whole earthy temple was set up for- although it always pointed to something greater.

Exodus 12 Now the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, 2 “This month shall be your beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you. 3 Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying: ‘On the tenth of this month every man shall take for himself a lamb, according to the house of his father, a lamb for a household. 4 And if the household is too small for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next to his house take it according to the number of the persons; according to each man’s need you shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without[a] blemish, a male [b]of the first year. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats. 6 Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at twilight

The OT is filled with the sacrificial system that involved sacrificing animals for the forgiveness of sins. It was never what God wanted, He preferred obedience 1 Samuel 15:22, but due to disobedience animal sacrifices happened until the Seed would come who became our Passover Lamb. 1 Cor 5:7

Odd isn't it that Jesus is called the lamb of God. The entire plan of salvation is built around Him. It appears daq is out to destroy faith in Jesus and His sacrifice.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Odd isn't it that Jesus is called the lamb of God. The entire plan of salvation is built around Him.

Good point. While it's such a sad thought the killing of innocent lambs for sins, I believe it was an illustration to show us when we sin how it hurts Jesus. The blood of the animals was always a placeholder and pointed forward to Jesus whose blood is perfect for cleansing us of sin and unrighteousness. But when we sin, instead of the blood of lambs and goats, we have the blood of Jesus Christ and the pain He bared for our sins, should make us never want to sin but to live righteous and holy lives through Him.

 

[Studyman]

Hi Studyman, NOT under the Law means just that, man kind is not under the dictates of Torah.

That's what you and "many" who come in Christ's Name that the Jesus "of the Bible" warns about preach. That's not what the Bible teaches.

Just because you don't believe in the Words of God, doesn't make them void. The Pharisees also had the Oracles of God, and they didn't believe them either. But as Paul teaches, that doesn't make the Word of God of none effect. "SIN" still bring death to those who practice it. Obedience to God still brings Righteousness for those who "yield themselves" to it.

We are under the laws of the New and better covenant.

Yes, we have a Priest, a "mediator" between God and man that is incorruptible. Who doesn't offer for the sins of man the Blood of animals for the remission of their sins, as required by the " Law". But has offered HIS Own Blood once and for all. A New and Better Covenant.

New Covenant Law are very simple and mostly dealing with morality.

Your Law, your righteousness, your definition of morality, your judgments, your high days, your image of God in the likeness of some random handsome long-haired man.

This is your religion, not the Gospel of the Christ "of the Bible". This is why men can't engage in an honest examination and discussion of what the Scriptures actually teach, because just like with the religious sect of the Pharisees, when the Light of Christ is shined on it, it is exposed as darkness.

Correct me if I am wrong, your rendition of how we are to regard our duty and love to God is to keep the Sabbath of the now annulled law of the old covenant.

You are wrong. If you were a preacher on this forum who advocated from murder, or robbing poor widows in Jesus Name, then I would point out to you where the Bible teaches this behavior is Sin. But you don't promote those things that I have seen. But you do work to convince others that Jesus came to destroy, "Annul" God's instruction in righteousness, particularly the Holy Sabbath HE "made for man". So that is why I reply on occasion to your posts.

It is simple really. God placed me in a Garden, this world as it were. And He gave me instruction in Righteousness that Paul speaks of. But he also placed your voice, and "other voices" in the garden. For me, I have heard the story of Eve and have learned from it. So when you preach to me and others that the Jesus "of the Bible", came to destroy or annul God's LAW and the Prophets who promoted them, as you clearly do, I go to the Jesus "of the Bible" and I ask Him.

"My Lord, Bob S is teaching everyone that you came to destroy, to "nullify" your Fathers Laws, that you and ALL the Faithful examples in the entire Holy Scriptures walked in, and the Prophets who taught them, and prophesied of God's New Priest that you became. Is this True?

And here is what my Lord, the Jesus "of the Bible" tells me.

Matt. 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I have "yielded myself" to God and HIS Priest Bob. Therefore, I won't be adopting your religion.

You may have more commands from the Sinai covenant that you adhere. Since New Covenant Christians and Jews are not under the laws of the Sinai covenant we need not adhere to a covenant that no longer exists

The Jesus "of the Bible" was asked once.

Matt. 24: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that "no man" deceive you. 5 For many shall come "in my name", saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and "shall" deceive many.

Now HE could have warned me about Atheists, Jews, Islam, Buddhism. But HE didn't. HE specifically Warned about the religion of "Christianity", that is, men who Call Jesus Lord, Lord, who come in His Name. Paul warns of the same thing.

2 Cor. 11: 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming "themselves" into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

So what are your works, Bob? Do you "Think" Jesus came to nullify God's Laws and the Prophets who taught them? Do you reject God's Judgments, and teach others to do the same? Do you Transgress God's Commandments by your own manmade religious traditions? Have you rejected the Righteousness of God, and have gone about establishing your own righteousness?

Yes Bob, you call Jesus Lord, Lord. You preach in His Name and do all the above as your posts clearly show over and over and over.

Surely, Even You can see why I, who believe in this Jesus, would be a fool to take my life's instruction from your voice.

You, on the other hand, feel that you are subject to commands from the Sinai covenant and try to chastise those who do not think as you do. You tell me I cherry pick scripture. To me that means you deny what those "cherry picked" scriptures have to tell us.

I advocate for honest, unbiased examination and discussion of all Scriptures. It isn't me who you slander in your preaching, it is God and HIS Word. I am supposed to rebuke and admonish. You "Cherry Pick" Scriptures, not in search of Biblical Truth. Only a fool would throw away 1/2 of the instruction manual and believe he will end with the intended result. The reason why men cherry pick, is so they can twist the scripture to promote a preconceived perception, that could not exist if ALL God's Words were considered.

This is a common practice among this world's religious sects. The Jesus "of the Bible" speaks to this very thing regarding the mainstream preachers of HIS Time.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, "and have omitted" the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

As you can surely see, the Pharisee also "cherry picked" scriptures. There is only one reason to do this, and that is to justify a religion which would be exposed as false if All the Scriptures were considered.

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

You tell me "You are promoting one of the many religions of this world, who come in Christ's Name, which exists in the world God placed us in Bob. In time past, you adopted and promoted the religious doctrines, traditions and philosophies of the religious business/sect of the SDA, and no doubt was zealous to promote their religious philosophy, demeaning and ridiculing all those who didn't adopt your religious philosophy then. Now you have abandoned that religion, and joined with another, and are now promoting their religious philosophies, traditions, high days and judgments with the same zeal. am promoting one of their religious philosophies, traditions, high days and judgments with the same zeal."

I tell you you are so very wrong in your analysis. Why, in the first place, do you think you know where I get my beliefs and secondly why try to put me in a box.. I get my beliefs directly from the scriptures I present to you and you supposedly deny.

You forget, I have been reading your preaching for years now. And we have had discussions between the difference of what you preach, and what the Scriptures actually say many times. I have tried to have discussions and Scriptures, and have asked you questions many times, but you refuse to engage. I have no doubt you believe in the philosophies, doctrines and traditions of whatever religious sect you have adopted and are now promoting. By definition, "deceived" means "to believe" things which are not true.

Lots of men, "Profess that they know God", there are "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, and also "many" who come in His Name, that HE doesn't even know.

A religion who comes in Christ's Name that "Thinks" Jesus came to annul the Law and Prophets, that Transgresses God's Commandments by their own traditions, that rejects the judgments and Righteousness of God, and go about establishing their own judgments and righteousness, is not from God. The scriptures are clear. I don't follow you around and reply to your every sermon, but once in a while it seems prudent to point out what the Scriptures actually say. Even if you don't care, others reading along might.

Then you brought a big laugh when you wrote: "You might be seduced by the image of God in the likeness of a long-haired men's hair shampoo model promoted by the RCC and her daughters. But clearly, not the Jesus "of the Bible". And in all the years we have tangled, you have never actually engaged in an honest discussion of what is actually written, although I have tried many times to reason with you in Scriptures. But Jesus told me you would not be persuaded." So, Jesus told you that huh???

Yes, He told you to, it's just that you don't seem to believe a lot of His Words.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Hard to hear Moses and the Prophets when you are preaching to the world that they are Nullified.

Seems like a full blown baseless put down you conjured up without fully engaging your better knowledge. I wonder why., was it it make yourself seem superior by choosing to degrade me??? Sounds suspicious to me.

I'm sure the mainstream preachers of Jesus Time felt the same when what was actually written was shown to them.

"It's not what you preach or what this world's religions "who come in Christ's Name" that you have adopted preach. It's what the Inspired word of God teaches. This is the crux of our disagreement." Again, I only find what I believe from scripture. Of course you are free to believe what you do. The fact is that what you believe could be wrong and according to what you present I believe is wrong.

I know you say this, but you also said you used to be SDA. And no doubt, at that time you also said "I only find what I believe from scripture".

I'm done with this visit, but will close with one last Scripture and thought for those reading along. In Isaiah 58, the Holy One of Israel is telling me what some of the purpose was for God's weekly Sabbath Fast from the world, that HE created for men.

Is. 58: 6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? 7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; "and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh"?

You have obviously found a path to eternity, walked by many, many people who call Jesus Lord, Lord, that excludes much of God's instruction in righteousness. And you are promoting it to others. I am simply advocating that the directions we follow to eternal life, comes from God, not religious men who come in His Name.

 

[Bob S]

That's what you and "many" who come in Christ's Name that the Jesus "of the Bible" warns about preach. That's not what the Bible teaches.

Just because you don't believe in the Words of God, doesn't make them void. The Pharisees also had the Oracles of God, and they didn't believe them either. But as Paul teaches, that doesn't make the Word of God of none effect. "SIN" still bring death to those who practice it. Obedience to God still brings Righteousness for those who "yield themselves" to it.



Yes, we have a Priest, a "mediator" between God and man that is incorruptible. Who doesn't offer for the sins of man the Blood of animals for the remission of their sins, as required by the " Law". But has offered HIS Own Blood once and for all. A New and Better Covenant.



Your Law, your righteousness, your definition of morality, your judgments, your high days, your image of God in the likeness of some random handsome long-haired man.

This is your religion, not the Gospel of the Christ "of the Bible". This is why men can't engage in an honest examination and discussion of what the Scriptures actually teach, because just like with the religious sect of the Pharisees, when the Light of Christ is shined on it, it is exposed as darkness.



You are wrong. If you were a preacher on this forum who advocated from murder, or robbing poor widows in Jesus Name, then I would point out to you where the Bible teaches this behavior is Sin. But you don't promote those things that I have seen. But you do work to convince others that Jesus came to destroy, "Annul" God's instruction in righteousness, particularly the Holy Sabbath HE "made for man". So that is why I reply on occasion to your posts.

It is simple really. God placed me in a Garden, this world as it were. And He gave me instruction in Righteousness that Paul speaks of. But he also placed your voice, and "other voices" in the garden. For me, I have heard the story of Eve and have learned from it. So when you preach to me and others that the Jesus "of the Bible", came to destroy or annul God's LAW and the Prophets who promoted them, as you clearly do, I go to the Jesus "of the Bible" and I ask Him.

"My Lord, Bob S is teaching everyone that you came to destroy, to "nullify" your Fathers Laws, that you and ALL the Faithful examples in the entire Holy Scriptures walked in, and the Prophets who taught them, and prophesied of God's New Priest that you became. Is this True?

And here is what my Lord, the Jesus "of the Bible" tells me.

Matt. 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I have "yielded myself" to God and HIS Priest Bob. Therefore, I won't be adopting your religion.



The Jesus "of the Bible" was asked once.

Matt. 24: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that "no man" deceive you. 5 For many shall come "in my name", saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and "shall" deceive many.

Now HE could have warned me about Atheists, Jews, Islam, Buddhism. But HE didn't. HE specifically Warned about the religion of "Christianity", that is, men who Call Jesus Lord, Lord, who come in His Name. Paul warns of the same thing.

2 Cor. 11: 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming "themselves" into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

So what are your works, Bob? Do you "Think" Jesus came to nullify God's Laws and the Prophets who taught them? Do you reject God's Judgments, and teach others to do the same? Do you Transgress God's Commandments by your own manmade religious traditions? Have you rejected the Righteousness of God, and have gone about establishing your own righteousness?

Yes Bob, you call Jesus Lord, Lord. You preach in His Name and do all the above as your posts clearly show over and over and over.

Surely, Even You can see why I, who believe in this Jesus, would be a fool to take my life's instruction from your voice.




I advocate for honest, unbiased examination and discussion of all Scriptures. It isn't me who you slander in your preaching, it is God and HIS Word. I am supposed to rebuke and admonish. You "Cherry Pick" Scriptures, not in search of Biblical Truth. Only a fool would throw away 1/2 of the instruction manual and believe he will end with the intended result. The reason why men cherry pick, is so they can twist the scripture to promote a preconceived perception, that could not exist if ALL God's Words were considered.

This is a common practice among this world's religious sects. The Jesus "of the Bible" speaks to this very thing regarding the mainstream preachers of HIS Time.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, "and have omitted" the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

As you can surely see, the Pharisee also "cherry picked" scriptures. There is only one reason to do this, and that is to justify a religion which would be exposed as false if All the Scriptures were considered.

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


You forget, I have been reading your preaching for years now. And we have had discussions between the difference of what you preach, and what the Scriptures actually say many times. I have tried to have discussions and Scriptures, and have asked you questions many times, but you refuse to engage. I have no doubt you believe in the philosophies, doctrines and traditions of whatever religious sect you have adopted and are now promoting. By definition, "deceived" means "to believe" things which are not true.

Lots of men, "Profess that they know God", there are "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, and also "many" who come in His Name, that HE doesn't even know.

A religion who comes in Christ's Name that "Thinks" Jesus came to annul the Law and Prophets, that Transgresses God's Commandments by their own traditions, that rejects the judgments and Righteousness of God, and go about establishing their own judgments and righteousness, is not from God. The scriptures are clear. I don't follow you around and reply to your every sermon, but once in a while it seems prudent to point out what the Scriptures actually say. Even if you don't care, others reading along might.




Yes, He told you to, it's just that you don't seem to believe a lot of His Words.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Hard to hear Moses and the Prophets when you are preaching to the world that they are Nullified.




I'm sure the mainstream preachers of Jesus Time felt the same when what was actually written was shown to them.



I know you say this, but you also said you used to be SDA. And no doubt, at that time you also said "I only find what I believe from scripture".

I'm done with this visit, but will close with one last Scripture and thought for those reading along. In Isaiah 58, the Holy One of Israel is telling me what some of the purpose was for God's weekly Sabbath Fast from the world, that HE created for men.

Is. 58: 6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? 7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; "and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh"?

You have obviously found a path to eternity, walked by many, many people who call Jesus Lord, Lord, that excludes much of God's instruction in righteousness. And you are promoting it to others. I am simply advocating that the directions we follow to eternal life, comes from God, not religious men who come in His Name.

I can only led you to water, I cannot make you drink, too bad. Best wishes.

 

[Gary K]

I can only led you to water, I cannot make you drink, too bad. Best wishes.

Is that why you ignore my posts to you such as Ellen White's statements on righteousness by faith?

 

[Studyman]

I can only led you to water, I cannot make you drink, too bad. Best wishes.

I'm simply not interested in the water you peddle Bob. It's the Living Water that I am advocating for. This water is defined by the Word of God, which became Flesh.

With HIS Love

SM

 

[daq]

Basically what you are teaching is that the Lord is a sinner- because He ordered the sacrifice (murder from what you claimed) of lambs and other animal sacrifices such as for Passover and as sin offerings. They sacrificed animals daily for sin offerings which is what the whole earthy temple was set up for- although it always pointed to something greater.

Exodus 12 Now the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, 2 “This month shall be your beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you. 3 Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying: ‘On the tenth of this month every man shall take for himself a lamb, according to the house of his father, a lamb for a household. 4 And if the household is too small for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next to his house take it according to the number of the persons; according to each man’s need you shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without[a] blemish, a male [b]of the first year. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats. 6 Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at twilight

The OT is filled with the sacrificial system that involved sacrificing animals for the forgiveness of sins. It was never what God wanted, He preferred obedience 1 Samuel 15:22, but due to disobedience animal sacrifices happened until the Seed would come who became our Passover Lamb. 1 Cor 5:7

Every sacrificial word concerning what you imagine to be animals has multiple meanings. However nearly every translation of the Torah in English Bibles has chosen to render from the Masoretic Hebrew pointed text of the Pharisees, who rejected Meshiah and whose pointed text is only a mere 1,000 years old, and did not even exist in the first century. Moreover the Masorete pointed text is a commentary, the greatest commentary ever to be foisted upon the Hebrew text, which is actually embedded into the text.

Therefore, by choosing to believe your favorite translation of the Torah which is based on the Meshiah rejecting Pharisaic interpretations of the Masoretes, you have sided with them and have chosen their way, which is a choice for death according to both the Torah and Mosheh in Deuteronomy 30:11-20. Not only that but you have even chosen against the Psalms, (Writings), and the Prophets, and the Testimony of the Meshiah himself in the Gospel accounts, and his Apostles in the Brit Hadashah writings. And because of your own uninformed choices and ignorance of the scripture you accuse me of teaching that "the Lord is a sinner", spoken just as your Pharisee fathers have said about the Master.

Psalms 50:1-17 KJV
1 A Psalm of Asaph. The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.
2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.
7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I am God, even thy God.
8 I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me.
9 I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds.
10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.
12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.
13 Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?
14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:
15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.
16 But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth?
17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.

Psalms 51:14-19 KJV
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering [ascending offerings] and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks [פרים] upon thine altar.

Psalms 66:13-15 KJV
13 I will go into thy house with burnt offerings: [ascending offerings] I will pay thee my vows,
14 Which my lips have uttered, and my mouth hath spoken, when I was in trouble.
15 I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices [ascending offerings] of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats. Selah.

Psalms 69:34 KJV
30 I will praise the name of God with a song, [שיר] and will magnify him with thanksgiving.
31 This also shall please the LORD better than an ox [שור] or bullock [פר] that hath horns and hoofs.
32 The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.
33 For the LORD heareth the poor, and despiseth not his prisoners.
34 Let the heaven and earth praise him, the seas, and every thing that moveth therein.

Hosea 14:1-2 KJV
1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves [פרים] of our lips.

Hosea 14:1-2 YLT
1 Turn back, O Israel, unto Jehovah thy God, For thou hast stumbled by thine iniquity.
2 Take with you words, and turn to Jehovah, Say ye unto Him: 'Take away all iniquity, and give good, And we do render the fruit [פרים] of our lips.

איל = mighty (one), a chief, a pillar or pilaster, a strong tree, (a palm or date palm), or a ram
פר / פרים = ox / oxen, calf / calves, fruit / fruits
שור = a bullock or a song

To side with the readings of the Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, is to choose death.

The consecrations of Ahron and his sons:

Exodus 29:1-2 KJV
1 And this is the thing that thou shalt do unto them to hallow them, to minister unto me in the priest's office: Take one young bullock, [פר] and two rams [אילם] without blemish,
2 And unleavened bread, and cakes unleavened tempered with oil, and wafers unleavened anointed with oil: of wheaten flour shalt thou make them.

And this is who they sided with and whom you ignorantly preach:

Numbers 23:1-2 KJV
1 And Balaam said unto Balak, Build me here seven altars, and prepare me here seven oxen [פרים] and seven rams [אילים].
2 And Balak did as Balaam had spoken; and Balak and Balaam offered on every altar a bullock [פר] and a ram [איל].

The only passage the KJV translators actually got correct in the above quotes is the one directly above, Numbers 23:1-2, because they were reading the text according to the Sanhedrin, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, who understood the sacrifices according to the stumbling block-doctrine of Balaam.

It is exactly as Paul says, which most unfortunately reject: the Torah is spiritual, Rom 7:14.
To choose the natural minded, outward, physical interpretation is to choose death, Dt 30:11-20.
The natural mind cannot please Elohim because it cannot be subject to His Torah.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Every sacrificial word concerning what you imagine to be animals has multiple meanings. However nearly every translation of the Torah in English Bibles has chosen to render from the Masoretic Hebrew pointed text of the Pharisees, who rejected Meshiah and whose pointed text is only a mere 1,000 years old, and did not even exist in the first century. Moreover the Masorete pointed text is a commentary, the greatest commentary ever to be foisted upon the Hebrew text, which is actually embedded into the text.

Therefore, by choosing to believe your favorite translation of the Torah which is based on the Meshiah rejecting Pharisaic interpretations of the Masoretes, you have sided with them and have chosen their way, which is a choice for death according to both the Torah and Mosheh in Deuteronomy 30:11-20. Not only that but you have even chosen against the Psalms, (Writings), and the Prophets, and the Testimony of the Meshiah himself in the Gospel accounts, and his Apostles in the Brit Hadashah writings. And because of your own uninformed choices and ignorance of the scripture you accuse me of teaching that "the Lord is a sinner", spoken just as your Pharisee fathers have said about the Master.

Psalms 50:1-17 KJV
1 A Psalm of Asaph. The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.
2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.
7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I am God, even thy God.
8 I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me.
9 I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds.
10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.
12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.
13 Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?
14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:
15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.
16 But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth?
17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.

Psalms 51:14-19 KJV
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering [ascending offerings] and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks [פרים] upon thine altar.

Psalms 66:13-15 KJV
13 I will go into thy house with burnt offerings: [ascending offerings] I will pay thee my vows,
14 Which my lips have uttered, and my mouth hath spoken, when I was in trouble.
15 I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices [ascending offerings] of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats. Selah.

Psalms 69:34 KJV
30 I will praise the name of God with a song, [שיר] and will magnify him with thanksgiving.
31 This also shall please the LORD better than an ox [שור] or bullock [פר] that hath horns and hoofs.
32 The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.
33 For the LORD heareth the poor, and despiseth not his prisoners.
34 Let the heaven and earth praise him, the seas, and every thing that moveth therein.

Hosea 14:1-2 KJV
1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves [פרים] of our lips.

Hosea 14:1-2 YLT
1 Turn back, O Israel, unto Jehovah thy God, For thou hast stumbled by thine iniquity.
2 Take with you words, and turn to Jehovah, Say ye unto Him: 'Take away all iniquity, and give good, And we do render the fruit [פרים] of our lips.

איל = mighty (one), a chief, a pillar or pilaster, a strong tree, (a palm or date palm), or a ram
פר / פרים = ox / oxen, calf / calves, fruit / fruits
שור = a bullock or a song

To side with the readings of the Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, is to choose death.

The consecrations of Ahron and his sons:

Exodus 29:1-2 KJV
1 And this is the thing that thou shalt do unto them to hallow them, to minister unto me in the priest's office: Take one young bullock, [פר] and two rams [אילם] without blemish,
2 And unleavened bread, and cakes unleavened tempered with oil, and wafers unleavened anointed with oil: of wheaten flour shalt thou make them.

And this is who they sided with and whom you ignorantly preach:

Numbers 23:1-2 KJV
1 And Balaam said unto Balak, Build me here seven altars, and prepare me here seven oxen [פרים] and seven rams [אילים].
2 And Balak did as Balaam had spoken; and Balak and Balaam offered on every altar a bullock [פר] and a ram [איל].

The only passage the KJV translators actually got correct in the above quotes is the one directly above, Numbers 23:1-2, because they were reading the text according to the Sanhedrin, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, who understood the sacrifices according to the stumbling block-doctrine of Balaam.

It is exactly as Paul says, which most unfortunately reject: the Torah is spiritual, Rom 7:14.
To choose the natural minded, outward, physical interpretation is to choose death, Dt 30:11-20.
The natural mind cannot please Elohim because it cannot be subject to His Torah.

We can't spiritualize everything we want away and ignore the plain scriptures. For example, you claim thou shalt not murder includes animals, but that could be spiritualized away too, we can spiritualize anything we want, does not mean we are following scripture. The law that is spiritual is the law that is in our hearts. Animal sacrifices was literal and never written in the heart, it was the consequence for breaking God's law that is written in the heart. The law that is written in our hearts is literal- thou shalt not murder and spiritual- don't have anger in the heart. Animal sacrifices was literal.

We are way too far apart on how we interpret scripture that I don't see a point of even debating, so I will leave it as agree to disagree but wish you well in seeking Truth to His Word.

 

[daq]

We can't spiritualize everything we want away and ignore the plain scriptures.

Hmmm, a whole five minutes to read and understand what was posted? (not).

For example, you claim thou shalt not murder includes animals, but that could be spiritualized away too, we can spiritualize anything we want, does not mean we are following scripture. We are way too far apart on how we interpret scripture that I don't see a point of even debating, so I will leave it as agree to disagree but wish you well in seeking Truth to His Word.

You claim that Exodus 20:13 only means not murdering/killing other people as a result of your default understanding. It is you who is adding to it, not me who is supposedly spiritualizing it away: it says what is says, and means what it says, and it says "You shall not murder-kill", period, and it surely means what it says first and foremost as physical murder-killing, so your argument that I am spiritualizing it away is empty and irrelevant because it is false. You simply cannot accept what it plainly states without adding your own stipulation to it because that would mean you would be forced to actually study and hear what the Torah is actually teaching. Physical murder-killing is forbidden: but you say by your understanding that this commandment only applies to murder-killing human beings. It doesn't say that: you are adding your own stipulation to what it says so as to exclude other innocent living souls of the creation of Elohim in order that they may be slaughtered to atone for sins in your version of the Torah instruction-teachings. If you cannot even get past this there is no way you will understand the true atonement doctrine taught in the scripture: but that's your choice, suit yourself.

 

[daq]

Like I said God commanded animals to be sacrificed, so what you are suggesting, does not reconcile with the scriptures.

You and GK have already shown yourselves to be holding hypocritical doctrines.

The OT is filled with the sacrificial system that involved sacrificing animals for the forgiveness of sins. It was never what God wanted, He preferred obedience 1 Samuel 15:22, but due to disobedience animal sacrifices happened until the Seed would come who became our Passover Lamb. 1 Cor 5:7

Odd isn't it that Jesus is called the lamb of God. The entire plan of salvation is built around Him. It appears daq is out to destroy faith in Jesus and His sacrifice.

Good point. While it's such a sad thought the killing of innocent lambs for sins, I believe it was an illustration to show us when we sin how it hurts Jesus. The blood of the animals was always a placeholder and pointed forward to Jesus whose blood is perfect for cleansing us of sin and unrighteousness. But when we sin, instead of the blood of lambs and goats, we have the blood of Jesus Christ and the pain He bared for our sins, should make us never want to sin but to live righteous and holy lives through Him.

We can't spiritualize everything we want away and ignore the plain scriptures.

Ah, but of course you can spiritualize whatever you wish when it suits your paradigm: thus you jump between carnal and spiritual whenever you are not able to understand what you read, having one foot in spiritual things and the other foot in natural and carnal things so that you can abolish the portions of the Torah-Word of Elohim which you choose to deem as "ceremonial law".

Even the Catholics apparently know that John 6:28-71 must somehow be accounted for in their doctrine, and thus their teaching of transubstantiation, and yet you do not believe their doctrine and the SDA teaching actually claims they are antichrist for changing the Shabbat to Sunday. So what do you do with that passage? You spiritualize it away and do nothing, rather than truly understand what is being taught therein from the Torah: for if you understood the teaching therein, which is indeed from the Torah, you would not be believing the things you say you believe herein.

John 6:53-58 KJV
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

The words above are not going to pass away, (Mat 24:35, Mrk 13:31, Luk 21:33), so you might want to let that sink in. And spiritual does not mean spiritualized away or nullified into meaninglessness. Moreover spiritualize is not even a word, so you justify me in responding that your opposing view is to carnalize everything into the things of below, of the flesh, and all the things that be of men which carnal minded men savor.

You say I spiritualize, and I say you carnalize, and neither of these are even legitimate words: but whose view of the scripture is closer to what is actually taught in the scripture?