To what degree do you view America as being godless.....

[hopeinGod]

and worthy of judgment? Has America's near total acceptance of relativism and secularism brought the US to the point of deserving God's judgment?

Perhaps you feel that God's judgment has already begun slowly, likened to that of a moth that eats away in time. God gave us this metaphor when He likened His judgment in the OT on nations that turn from His warnings.

Dave

 

[SonOfTheWest]

and worthy of judgment? Has America's near total acceptance of relativism and secularism brought the US to the point of deserving God's judgment?

Perhaps you feel that God's judgment has already begun slowly, likened to that of a moth that eats away in time. God gave us this metaphor when He likened His judgment in the OT on nations that turn from His warnings.

Dave

Ever been outside the States? The U.S. is one of the most if not THE most non secular 1st world country in the world.

 

[hopeinGod]

I wasn't asking for a comparison. If so, we would be discussing in relative terms. I'm asking, in regard to God's standards and desires for this country, upon both those who call themselves by His name and those who don't, are we falling short, and if so, to what degree are we inciting God's judgments?

Maybe we aren't -- as you may see it -- at such a point. Others may disagree with you, especially those who view the elimination of God within the classroom and public office as a great loss.

Remember, to whom much is given, much is required.

Dave

 

[SonOfTheWest]

I wasn't asking for a comparison. If so, we would be discussing in relative terms. I'm asking, in regard to God's standards and desires for this country, upon both those who call themselves by His name and those who don't, are we falling short, and if so, to what degree are we inciting God's judgments?

Maybe we aren't -- as you may see it -- at such a point. Others may disagree with you, especially those who view the elimination of God within the classroom and public office as a great loss.

Remember, to whom much is given, much is required.

Dave

If the premise of an argument is built on the idea that the U.S. is highly secular and statistics show that it's NOT highly secular. Then it stands to reason that your argument isn't a good one.

 

[hopeinGod]

Are you able to point me to the statistics that state such a thing? As I have learned from listening to such apologists as Ravi Zacharias, colleges were established by Christian men, and most of the major universities have as their motto Christian phrases such as Veritas and "And ye shall know the truth.." and yet the majority of graduates have not concluded there are absolute truths. This is because God's foundation of morality, accountability, charity and eternity are not being taught or expressed in the classroom. Instead of graduating with certainties, they are being taught that there are no absolute truths, that there is nothing of which one can be certain.

Dave

 

[Randy_R]

I wasn't asking for a comparison. If so, we would be discussing in relative terms. I'm asking, in regard to God's standards and desires for this country, upon both those who call themselves by His name and those who don't, are we falling short, and if so, to what degree are we inciting God's judgments?

Maybe we aren't -- as you may see it -- at such a point. Others may disagree with you, especially those who view the elimination of God within the classroom and public office as a great loss.

Remember, to whom much is given, much is required.

Dave

"elimination of God within the classroom and public office"- Prayer in school? I don't know, the one leading the prayer might be a Muslim, or worse a Liberal!! Would you really want your children being prayed over by one of those?
And as far as Christians in public office, the world has barely gotten over the last "Christian" President. I'd much rather see an atheist President who knows what he's doing instead of a person like Bush who knew all the right "Christian" things to say, but who had the most corrupt and incompetent administration in the history of the country.

 

[hopeinGod]

From what I have learned in reading books and listening to old radio broadcasts, I believe FDR was a man of God. He was not ashamed to reference Almighty God. It is in whose name we trust that matters, and from what we hear coming from today's politicians, there is no leaning that we are encouraged to do as a nation that befits that which was so evident during WWII. FDR called upon this nation to pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for direction, strength, and victory. As an example:

May 26, 1940
I am certain that out of the hearts of every man, woman and child in this land, in every waking minute, a supplication goes up to Almighty God; that all of us beg that suffering and starving, that death and destruction may end -- and that peace may return to the world. In common affection for all mankind, your prayers join with mine -- that God will heal the wounds and the hearts of humanity.

This nation was founded upon Judeo-Christian goals and ethics, and to that we should be adamant, even in regard to religious activities in academic institutions. We are not a Muslim nation and should refuse to believe it is God's way to give Baal the lead. It will only lead us to captivity.

 

[ExNihilo1]

Well, we all are WORTHY of God's judgment. I think it's a matter of has America turned its back so far on God that his patience has run out? If we're not there yet, we're getting close. He may be sending "judgment", but when we've rejected him he certainly will lift his shield of protection.

 

[BrandonLParks]

and worthy of judgment? Has America's near total acceptance of relativism and secularism brought the US to the point of deserving God's judgment?

Perhaps you feel that God's judgment has already begun slowly, likened to that of a moth that eats away in time. God gave us this metaphor when He likened His judgment in the OT on nations that turn from His warnings.

Dave

I think this assumes that the Untied States, like Israel, is a nation set apart by God for his purposes and that if we turn our back on him, he should punish us. I think this is a misunderstanding of Scripture. Israel was God's only chosen nation in the history of humankind. He has used other nations to his purpose, but only Israel was set apart for a specific purpose: to lead the world to God. I think we need to be careful in our thinking that the U.S. should receive punishment from God, otherwise we start believing such unChristian notions like that 9/11 and hurricane Katrina were punishments for homosexuality in the U.S.
Blessings,
-Brandon

 

[MrJim]

From what I have learned in reading books and listening to old radio broadcasts, I believe FDR was a man of God. He was not ashamed to reference Almighty God. It is in whose name we trust that matters, and from what we hear coming from today's politicians, there is no leaning that we are encouraged to do as a nation that befits that which was so evident during WWII. FDR called upon this nation to pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for direction, strength, and victory. As an example:

May 26, 1940
I am certain that out of the hearts of every man, woman and child in this land, in every waking minute, a supplication goes up to Almighty God; that all of us beg that suffering and starving, that death and destruction may end -- and that peace may return to the world. In common affection for all mankind, your prayers join with mine -- that God will heal the wounds and the hearts of humanity.

This nation was founded upon Judeo-Christian goals and ethics, and to that we should be adamant, even in regard to religious activities in academic institutions. We are not a Muslim nation and should refuse to believe it is God's way to give Baal the lead. It will only lead us to captivity.

We are already in captivity~slaves to our passions and materialism chained to the wall of consumerism.

 

[jonsun80]

Doesn't matter. This nation was intended to accommodate all people, It is up to us to live a righteous life and for others to have the freewill God intended. We need to stop worrying about our fellow countrymen so much and start worrying about ourselves. If you cannot accept this creed of the nation spelled out as the first thing in it constitution then perhaps this country was never for you in the first place.

 

[hopeinGod]

Just by giving us up to our own devices, God knows it causes us self-inflicted suffering. Still, that is our own choice. On the other hand, what may be taking place now in this country that could be termed the judgment of God? Whether it be natural disasters or not, could God's will be in it?

 

[jonsun80]

No. There have always been problems natural and unnatural and there always will be. What you're really doing is saying that you don't approve of things in society and because not everyone is living and believing as you they are bringing us all down with them. That is pretty twisted for God to do by lumping everyone all together. He knew the creed of the nation from the start, and that creed being free will for its citizens. So why now all of the sudden would He be sending everyone down with the ship because of the actions of some? It really makes no sense when you think about it.

 

[Randy_R]

On the other hand, what may be taking place now in this country that could be termed the judgment of God? Whether it be natural disasters or not, could God's will be in it?

That's a good question. If anything like Katrina had happened in ancient Israel, they'd be on their knees in repentance. But of course with our scientific worldview we know better than to believe such things. But that leads to the question, if God wanted to get our attention today, how would He do it? Prophets? a good proportion of the church wouldn't believe a prophet no matter what he said or did to show he was legit. Disasters? If Katrina doesn't get our attention what would?

 

[Tim Myers]

I would first need to ask you, what leads you to believe that America is "godless"??............

 

[Randy_R]

I would first need to ask you, what leads you to believe that America is "godless"??............

Every country is godless because it's part of the world system. No government will accept true Christianity, they will try to create an in-the-world civil religion that looks (outwardly in ritual and dogma) "Christian".

The reason for that is because only a child of God can be Godly. The most non-Christians can do is play act at doing godly things, but even then they aren't truly godly. It's like Greg Boyd wrote, finding a Christian (or godly) nation is like finding a Christian (or godly) petunia.

People aren't godless because they sin, they sin because they're godless. Even if you can get 51% of the population to vote the "right way" to get a law passed, the law isn't serving God, it's obeying the dictates of 51% of the voting population.

No nation will be a godly nation until we all see the return of the True King.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

Every country is godless because it's part of the world system. No government will accept true Christianity, they will try to create an in-the-world civil religion that looks (outwardly in ritual and dogma) "Christian".

The reason for that is because only a child of God can be Godly. The most non-Christians can do is play act at doing godly things, but even then they aren't truly godly. It's like Greg Boyd wrote, finding a Christian (or godly) nation is like finding a Christian (or godly) petunia.

People aren't godless because they sin, they sin because they're godless. Even if you can get 51% of the population to vote the "right way" to get a law passed, the law isn't serving God, it's obeying the dictates of 51% of the voting population.

No nation will be a godly nation until we all see the return of the True King.

This sounds terribly paranoid.

 

[hopeinGod]

From a list of godless isms that have emerged, one is to gain "insight" into one's environment and choices. This is what is being taught in public schools. For we are not a God-centered society, but rather a secularized society today. We are not one nation under God, but rather one nation whose elected leadership has chosen to cast God out of educational institutions. As we can see, God is not in all their thoughts.

What dictates is what serves the average opinion, born out of our nation's diversity. To live with one another, we are told it is best to be tolerant, which, in fact, is today's religion: tolerance. For we are instructed not to show intolerance for anyone's choice no matter what choices are made; that is, if we believe in freedom. Yet, that is not what freedom is, or is it?

 

[BrandonLParks]

From a list of godless isms that have emerged, one is to gain "insight" into one's environment and choices. This is what is being taught in public schools. For we are not a God-centered society, but rather a secularized society today. We are not one nation under God, but rather one nation whose elected leadership has chosen to cast God out of educational institutions. As we can see, God is not in all their thoughts.

What dictates is what serves the average opinion, born out of our nation's diversity. To live with one another, we are told it is best to be tolerant, which, in fact, is today's religion: tolerance. For we are instructed not to show intolerance for anyone's choice no matter what choices are made; that is, if we believe in freedom. Yet, that is not what freedom is, or is it?

It seems to me that tolerance is what Jesus preached. Jesus himself was tolerant of everything and everyone except for intolerance.
Blessings,
-Brandon

 

[Randy_R]

This sounds terribly paranoid.

Look at it this way. Imagine that you are a 3 dimensional being in a 2 dimensional universe. It doesn't matter whether one of the 2 dimensional beings like 3Der's or hate them, the fact is all of the 2Der's are in the same boat because they're 2D. The only way for a 2Der to become a 3Der would be to be born (or reborn) as a 3Der.

In the same way, every country is part of this world system, like the 2Der's in the 2D universe. They will alway BE part of this world system until Christ returns and removes the old world system and replaces it with His Kingdom. Now we are in an in-between time where the old world has been defeated by Christ on the cross, but it hasn't been destroyed yet and where Christ's Kingdom has broken through in the form of God's children who are part of God's Kingdom.