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To tithe, or not to tithe?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by TruelightUK, Jun 10, 2002.

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  1. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Franklin,

    To answer your last question: A tenth is not much. If you are surprised that some give more then be surprised. The answer is yes.



    Franklin, you said: <You are misunderstanding everything I have posted in this thread.> I will let you speak for yourself here.


    You said the following:
    #6 The apostle Paul considered it robbery to take wages from people in the "church" when he preached the gospel to them!

    #12If a church is incorporated by the State, they are legally defined as a business. And they are doing business on the so-called "Lord's day," which is prohibited by God. One of the evidences to show that they are truly a business, even if they are not incorporated, is that they want the money up front. In other words, they pass the plate before they even preach the Word of God. That's limited liability on their part, that's business, that's commercial activity, that's selling the word of God.

    #21Tithing was a carnal law of the OT and there is not a single command in the NT to sacrifice or tithe...

    # 17 Sounds like pure legalizm.....

    #32 I think you are getting a little judgemental here brother and that is not your job to judge others #32 find the scriptures and let those scriptures speak on it's own without the aid of some seminary trained entertainer (preacher) ok?! And how did fasting get into this discussion anyway?! The only thing fasting does for me is it makes me very hungry! You probably would have made a great ambassador during the old covenant age!

    #53Give it break Booth! Who are to judge how Nancy gives from her heart anyway? And where is it in the NT where we have to go to a church building and worship and pay people salaries?


    Franklin,
    You tell me, am I misunderstanding you? The buildings you claim are not needed are full of bible school activities right now. Children will hear about Jesus. The preachers you slam will be busy working on ongoing ministry activities, taking a few calls, one for food perhaps, another for a visit to the hospital, might be a wedding, who knows. Franklin, the local church is a family group. I pray you see that one day. I assume your family has a building, a light bill perhaps, some food in the old ice box? a few bills to pay?

    I have debated with you on pretrist threads, Lets agree to disagree.




    Blessings
     
  2. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    A tenth of all of your assets of all your possessions isn't much?????&nbsp;That would be true if you didn't own anything!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I think you need to go back a review my question.&nbsp; Did you ever give a tenth of all your possessions?&nbsp;Think again!&nbsp; I have never given a tenth of all my possessions!&nbsp;Can you answer that question any different then that?&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks for recopying my posts and where in there do you see me condemning giving from the abundance of the heart?&nbsp; Your attempt to take what I say out of context is not working unless the reader isn't a careful reader like yourself!&nbsp; Or maybe it's what you do on purpose!&nbsp; You didn't even copy my entire quotes, you just took bits &amp; pieces of them out of its context just like you do with scripture to prove your point!&nbsp;So far you haven't even been able to show anything from scripture&nbsp;where Christ gives one single command for us to give at least a tenth or tithe!&nbsp;
     
  3. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
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    Actually, one tenth is a lot to those who have little, and not much to those who have a lot.

    It works this way: If a person makes $100,000 per year, and a decent but humble house costs $12,000 per year, and wholesome but humble food costs $4800 per year, and a humble car costs $3600 per year, and modest clothing costs $1200 per year, and so on, their actual necessities cost, say, $21,600.&nbsp; You can see that the person with $100,000 is spending only a small portion of their income on actual necessities. $10,000 is nothing to them, comparatively.

    But the person who makes $25,000 per year, and has house expenses of $12,000 and food costs of $4800 and so on, and has the same necessities pays out the same $21,600 in necessities.&nbsp; Giving 10% ($2500) is a BIG deal, not small stuff.

    The rich guy is giving out of his surplus, but the poorer person is giving out of his need.
     
  4. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Franklin,
    you said I did not post scripture: I reposted it for you below. You can find it in my previous post. I also explain the scripture you posted in your post, want me to repost those?

    You say a tenth is alot if you own alot. Lamb answered it for me. It's a tenth, that dosn't change, a tenth of a $1,000,000.00 is $100,000.00, a tenth of $100.00 is $1.00. It's still just a tenth.

    You asked what I saw in your post: you claim others judge, then you judge. Look for yourself. Did you condemn. "slick trained entertainers" nahhhhhh, not you.

    Franklin, your pretrist views have taken you off the narrow road.

    I repost the scripture you claim I never posted:
    2CO 9:6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9 As it is written:

    Your view of this issue is your view. My suggestion that it's not a mature one is biblical.
    EPH 4:9 (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

    EPH 4:14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

    I am done with this until you show me where Jesus said: stop tithing and not in your words.

    Blessings
     
  5. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    &nbsp;

    Once again Mike, you have missed my whole point and question!&nbsp; I asked you if you have ever given a tenth of all your possessions?&nbsp; NOT your money!&nbsp; God owns everything!&nbsp; You make it sound like God sits on His throne with some hugh cosmic calculator! What would Jesus say..... And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
    For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
    You and Lamb made my point!&nbsp; I had a feeling you would come up with some kind of math! :D&nbsp; Which proves the carnality of your thinking!&nbsp;

    &nbsp;

    I just love it when you twist what I say out of context once agin brother elder!&nbsp; Did you see me condemn giving cheerfully and from the abundance of the heart in that post? huh?&nbsp; In that post I was pointing out how some preachers use scare tactics to pressure people to tithe!&nbsp; And I have heard them!&nbsp; I'm not making it up!&nbsp; I never condemned cheerful giving by being led by the spirit!&nbsp; Your talking about giving from a carnel perspective based on a set price! I'm talking about giving as led to give freely out of the abundance of the heart.&nbsp; It's important to know the difference and your missing it!

    &nbsp;

    My preterist views have nothing to do with this argument on tithing!&nbsp; Supposed I said to you, your dispensational views are taking you off that road?&nbsp; Call my views Biblical, and you didn't sight all the scriptures I posted anyway let alone if you even read them!

    &nbsp;
    &nbsp;

    Thank you Mike, you made my point once again and you even quoted the same passages I've quoted to you!&nbsp; Again, Paul is referring to giving!!!!! NOT a TENTH of your gross pay check! Giving as&nbsp;in giving from being led by the spirit to give, not by some set price as is so taught by the legalist's!&nbsp; I won't even post your other passages because they say nothing about tithe.EPH 4:9-13



    You just made my point again eldermike!&nbsp; Jesus never actually said stop tithing!&nbsp; You know why?&nbsp; Because He is silent on the issue!&nbsp; Does Paul talk about tithe or does he command us to tithe?&nbsp; No!&nbsp; Does the scripture contradict scripture?&nbsp; Does Paul contradict Jesus?&nbsp;Jesus and Paul both are always referring to giving out of the abundance of the heart and&nbsp;doing it in the&nbsp;spirit of cheerfulness!&nbsp;

    My God richly bless you,

    FR

    &nbsp;&nbsp;
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

    &nbsp;
     
  6. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

    +3
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    Luke 6:38
    Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


    &nbsp;

    Mal 3:10
    Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
     
  7. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "A tenth of all of your assets of all your possessions isn't much????? That would be true if you didn't own anything! "

    Yup, maybe so..but then again Christ says its right to do, its equal SACRIFICES not equal amounts. there is biblical backing for this..just look at the lady that gave 2 copper coins..

    If you wanna get down to it franklin, If you have a family and your total yearly income is around 30 K. I do think you should give 10 percent..probalby more. You should give a tenth of what you own. Giving a tenth to the church DOESN'T MEAN giving up all you posses. For example, you could take people to church, or volenteer to drive people here and there. In terms of your income you should give 10 percent. That is what we are talking about franklin, and you getting so defensive just shows me you love your money more then you love God. :)
     
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Jesus never actually said stop tithing! "

    If you're taking that stance by the way, you should keep tithing the 10% the bible says. It wasn't changed.
     
  9. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

    +3
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    Mal 3:8
    Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
     
  10. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Franklin,

    I have answered yes three times now....YES!, get over it, please. I understand your question, I answered it the first time you asked.

    Franklin, your defense to my question: did Jesus say stop!! is to say that is your offense. That can't be supported. The lack of scripture is not scripture. Now, tell me, how may of your views are based on things you can't find in the bible? Paul said scripture was useful for............(you know the verse) did He forget to say, the lack of scripture is also useful?

    Now please, tell me where in the NT, what verse, tells us to STOP tithing.

    Blessings
     
  11. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Give me a break Mike the elder!&nbsp; You never did answer that questions, I had to practically pry it out of you!&nbsp; At least I admitted that I never gave a tenth of ALL my possessions!&nbsp; You avoided and danced around that question over and over!&nbsp; I used to tithe until I learned the difference of giving freely as led by the spirit as is the message Jesus has spelled out in His word!&nbsp; You want to get tough, well your going to have a match on your hands!&nbsp; Just keep it up because I'm standing on the word of God not the traditions of men and orthodoxy and creeds!




    I think you need to review all the scriptures I have provided in my posts which shows that the tithe has been abolished.....&nbsp; All I'm getting from you mike the elder is knee jerk reactions and I'm not going to repeat myself over and over with you. Your missing the difference from the OC tithe&nbsp;(sacrificial laws)&nbsp;and the spirit of giving out the abundance of a cheerful giving heart&nbsp;as led by the spirit as compared to your carnel thinking of a set price!&nbsp; It's important to know the difference as I have spelled out consistantly&nbsp;within the contents of this thread.&nbsp; The Pharisee's were masters at making it well known to the public when they gave their tithes because they&nbsp;were hypocrites! They wanted to be noticed by&nbsp;everyone and Jesus rebuked them for their actions!&nbsp; The poor widow expressed the love she had for God by giving all she ever owned!&nbsp; She gave out&nbsp;of the abundance&nbsp;and overflow of her&nbsp;precious heart and&nbsp;love for Jesus and He lifted her up for her trust&nbsp;in God!&nbsp;

    God bless..... &nbsp;
     
  12. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Franklin,

    I said yes to a yes/no question in three post in a row. I did no dance. This is also the second or third time you have made statments that are shown false by simply reading my post. I don't get it...So let's stick to this for a minute..What did you pry out of me???

    Blessings
     
  13. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Franklin,

    You said: <I'm standing on the word of God not the traditions of men and orthodoxy and creeds!>

    Franklin, so am I.

    You said: <The Pharisee's were masters at making it well known to the public when they gave their tithes because they were hypocrites! >

    I agree.

    you said: <She gave out of the abundance and overflow of her precious heart and love for Jesus and He lifted her up for her trust in God! >

    I agree.

    You said: <Your missing the difference from the OC tithe (sacrificial laws) and the spirit of giving out the abundance of a cheerful giving heart as led by the spirit as compared to your carnal thinking of a set price! It's important to know the difference as I have spelled out consistently within the contents of this thread. >

    I am missing nothing. I know the dispensations well. And in my opinion you have misused them on this thread. I suppose the 10 commandments are gone as well?

    Franklin, you come close when you say that Jesus hit hard on the Pharisee for the hypocritical way in which they used the law. This was about their un-belief not the law. Jesus said to them that they were the problem. You have now stood it on it's head and claim the law was the problem.
    You need a teacher. You say you stand on the word and that is good. But you are struggling understanding it. I am not angry here, listen for a minute to yourself. Show me where Jesus said the law was wrong. Show me where Paul said it was wrong. In fact they said it was good,,it's us, you and me that get it wrong. Jesus ended certain aspects of the law, they are all clearly written. no more blood sacrifices as an example.

    Tell me why you think He forgot to say He ended Tithing?

    Franklin, brother in Christ. It's time to learn a new thing.

    Blessings
     
  14. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    I never said the law (10 commandments) were abolished!&nbsp; Your misunderstanding what I'm saying again. Christ came to fulfill the law not abolish it.&nbsp; Tithe was NOT part of the&nbsp;Ten Commandments! Tithe was part of the Mosaic Law.&nbsp; There is a difference. The Ten Commandments&nbsp;(God's Law)&nbsp;and the "commandments of Moses" were two separate laws!&nbsp; The "Law of Moses" has been known mainly as the "commandments of Moses" throughout the scripture, but can also be known as the commandments of God. On the other hand, the Ten Commandments are known only as the direct commandments of God, and never ever as the "commandments of Moses."&nbsp;&nbsp;I hope&nbsp;this can be a&nbsp;lesson&nbsp;to both of us&nbsp;elderMike, and I agree, I need a teacher just like you need a teacher.&nbsp;I'll admit I do struggle understanding the word sometimes and so do you brother which is evident in&nbsp;your posts and I don't mean that to be harsh... I'm just stating an observation. We can both learn from each other.&nbsp; I'm sorry if I appeared angry, I would have to say it wasn't anger but passion on my part just like I can tell you express yourself with passion also.&nbsp; I feel like we are brothers of the same faith and I&nbsp;am not trying to be&nbsp;your enemy, I hope you understand that.&nbsp;&nbsp;
     
  15. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Franklin,

    I will always be learning, I pray. I also pray that the ones watching this action come down on the side of giving freely to their local church (at least 10%). It's not an issue of salvation brother. It is an issue of keeping the local church the lighthouse with a beacon of hope in the community.

    Blessings to you
     
  16. Back To The Future

    Back To The Future New Member

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    Followers of God are not to ask for money from their listeners when they preach the gospel. 1 Corinthians 9:18 "what is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge."

    I believe the Bible says we are not to make a living from preaching the Gospel. That includes tithing. Paul made his living by being a tentmaker. He used this business to be able to go from place to place to preach. Paul did not ask people for money and then tell them about the Gospel.

    I don't believe its ethical to preach and ask for money.

    The church today is not the temple of God. Our bodies are now the temple and the spirit of God dwells within us. Romans 8:9-11.

    Scripture says that God does not dwell in temples made with hands. Acts 7:48

    Tithe was a sacrificial law, a carnal commandment.

    Hebrews 7:12 "for the priesthood being changed there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Tithes was one of the priesthood laws that were changed. Tithe was abloished.

    Tithe is a form of sacrificing to the Lord. BUT...Jesus Christ has given himself as our sacrifice, Ephesians 5:2. Christians don't make sacrifices and offerings anymore, because Jesus fulfilled that obligation.

    It is our duty to give to the poor and needy, because we&nbsp; are to have a free will giving from the heart. GOd loves a cheerful giver, but there is no longer a need for a tenth sacrifice or an animal sacrifice.&nbsp; Give from your heart.

    Hope this helps

    Nancy :angel:
     
  17. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Sometimes boothe I have to wonder where you think up all the stuff you come up with!&nbsp; The passages about the poor widow does not support tithe (tenth) because the woman did NOT
    give 10% of her money, she gave 100% of all she had. Would&nbsp;you&nbsp;
    give 100% of your money like that poor
    widow did?&nbsp; I've even posted these passages to others in this&nbsp;thread and they have missed the whole point of it just like you have.




    Oooh so now mr high and mighty booth is trying to dictate to me how much I am supposed to tithe????&nbsp; That is none of your business how much I give, and I mean give as led by the spirit not the carnel tithe like you are so&nbsp;wrapped up in.&nbsp; Until&nbsp;you understand the difference between God's carnal
    commandment of tithe, and the Holy Spirit leading us to give money, you and the others who are big defenders of the tenth
    will never understand.&nbsp;You are not relying on the Holy Spirit to give, you are relying upon the letter of a carnal law.&nbsp; And that is not getting defensive, I'm just stating fact. Your missing the whole point as usual.


    &nbsp;
     
  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "I've even posted these passages to others in this thread and they have missed the whole point of it just like you have. "

    *sigh* you seem to miss the point of the passage. As I said before the amount is not important, what is is that the churches needs are met, your whole church is equally sacrificing and that is usually accomplished by the 10% mark. the problem in churches now-a-days is people like you that say, no I don't tithe at all so 20% of the church gives 80% of the money and they struggle to do so. That is non biblical at all. So if you love your money more then God by all means, keep it.

    "Your missing the whole point as usual. "

    No, I'm seeing you get defensive probably because you feel convicted because you either 1. don't give enough or 2. dont' give anything. You and others that don't give rob from God. That's the simple fact of it.
     
  19. Back To The Future

    Back To The Future New Member

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    No... You are missing the point as usual!

    You have know idea how much we give every year. Just becaue it isn't to a church that is robbing people and putting some in debt becaue of the guilt trip about giving.

    Just so you don't think, We love our money more than God, this is what we did with some of the money that God blessed us with this year.

    Bought a car for an elderly couple.

    sent 6 boxes of snowsuits and Christmas presents to Rosebud Indian Reservation where the children and elderly are dying.

    Bought Christmas presents for&nbsp;local entire family of five.

    Made over 2 dozen meals.

    Took a 14 year old under our wing and provided for her.

    Donated to the 9-11 fund

    and surprise surprise did put some money in the church offering plate when we did visit a church.

    We probably gave more than 10%. Just put it in the places where we were lead by God to put it :clap:

    And as far as letting the other 80% of people pay all the tithes, no one is twisting their arm.
     
  20. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    You know booth for a guy who doesn't know me from Adam you sure seem to know so much about me personally and my giving habits!&nbsp; You are amazing!&nbsp; Before you go passing judgement on someone Did you ever give 100% of everything you ever owned like the poor widow?&nbsp; You don't have to answer that question by the way, you can keep it to yourself!&nbsp; Who the heck do you think you are that you can pass judgement and say I love my money more than I love God when you haven't a clue as to how or who I give to?&nbsp; You had better get the log out of your own eye first!&nbsp;&nbsp; How do you know how many cars I provided for the&nbsp;missions at my church&nbsp;or&nbsp;gave money to&nbsp;families that were without food?&nbsp; How do you know how many people I found employment for because they couldn't find work to feed their families...... How do you know how much I've given to churches I belonged to huh?&nbsp; Do you have a clue?&nbsp; I didn't think so!&nbsp;&nbsp;Do you stand up in the middle of your church while the plate is being passed around and say to everyone, "hey look at me folks I'm giving my tenth today ain't I wonderful?"&nbsp;You don't have me&nbsp;under conviction pal let me tell you!&nbsp; Maybe you are under conviction.&nbsp;

    Have a happy and prosperous 4th! and God bless.
     
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