To tithe, or not to tithe. That is the question! (2)

[GaryArnold]

Somehow my comments posted twice when I edited them, so I am removing this one.

 

[GaryArnold]

Need to delete this as the forum quoted from the wrong comments.

 

[GaryArnold]

None of the scriptures above say not to tithe. You've only given a list of all the types of professions there were. These weren't wage earners. These were business people.

To think that landowners didn't have other skills and abilities is a bit naive. Every Israelite was given an allotment of land by the Lord (except the Levites). What do you think they did with that land? Not grow crops or raise livestock? I think not. Those with land grew something or raised something.

Land owners were MALES, only, and not the children. They were in the wilderness for forty years. Many children were already with them, and many more were born. As the children grew up, they didn't own any land. Tithing began AFTER they reached the promised land. The first-born male would inherited the land. His brothers, then, would not own any land. They had income, but did not tithe.

Why do you think those occupations I listed didn't earn wages? Where did the money come?

Abraham purchased land with money (Genesis 23:15-16).
Jacob purchased land with money (Genesis 33:19).
Joseph was sold for money (Genesis 37:28).
Money was used for offerings (Exodus 30:14-16).
WAGES were paid (Genesis 29:15, Genesis 30:28, Genesis 31:41, Exodus 2:9, Leviticus 19:13).

In Malachi 3:5 God threatened to come near you for judgment for those who defraud laborers of their wages.

You made a very stupid statement: "These weren't wage earners. These were business people." Whether they earned wages, salary, or self-employment income, THEY DIDN'T TITHE FROM THAT INCOME.

You seem to have no clue as to how tithing worked in the OT.

 

[GaryArnold]

Some appear to believe that the Levites were fully supported by the tithe, and that they worked at the Temple as a full-time job. Not so.

First, ONLY male Levites, between the ages of 25 and 50 we allowed to work at the Temple. Women and children were now allowed to work at the Temple.

Next, the Levites (males between 25 and 50) worked at the Temple ONLY ABOUT TWO WEEKS PER YEAR, on a rotational basis. What do you think they did the other fifty weeks of the year? They obviously didn't sit around and watch TV. They had regular jobs. The priests, also, worked at the Temple only about two weeks per year, also on a rotational basis.

 

[Svt4Him]

None of the scriptures above say not to tithe. You've only given a list of all the types of professions there were. These weren't wage earners. These were business people.

To think that landowners didn't have other skills and abilities is a bit naive. Every Israelite was given an allotment of land by the Lord (except the Levites). What do you think they did with that land? Not grow crops or raise livestock? I think not. Those with land grew something or raised something.

Those were other professions, and only certain professions were required to tithe. Go re-read what the OT required of the tithe before you dismiss it. The tenth animal to pass under a rod would not apply to a cook. See if the other requirements did as well.

 

[Svt4Him]

30 “‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.

Is money mentioned? Why indeed it is, when converting the regular tithe to money, you must add a 1/5 to it

31 Whoever would redeem any of their tithe must add a fifth of the value to it.

Anything else mentioned? Why yes there is:

32 Every tithe of the herd and flock

The first tenth right, gross herd and flock not net? Why no, if you only had nine cows you were exempt:

—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord. 33 No one may pick out the good from the bad or make any substitution.

What? If the tenth cow was sick? No, unheard of. Wait, this is the Bible.

If anyone does make a substitution, both the animal and its substitute become holy and cannot be redeemed.’”

People, stick to the Bible. There's more, I know, but at least read what is being discussed.

 

[WordofHisPower]

The bottom line is tithes, alms, and offerings are OT and NT, whether you tithe based on the pre-law, post-law, or law scriptures.

God hasn't said to stop tithing, or that tithing's a false teaching.

You started your anti-tithe teaching after you claim many wounded tithers came to you. Are you sure you aren't being led by a spirit of offense?

You're unable to talk to tithers in a civil tone. You (and the other 6 anti-tithers) don't go to church, you don't tithe (or give), you don't speak respectfully to fellow Christians.

And you want God-fearing church-going Christians to take what you have to say seriously? And accept your legalistic view of tithing? Sorry, we already know better than you what NT tithing is all about.

Abraham, Jacob, and others, tithed apart from the law. So do we NT tithers.

 

[WordofHisPower]

30 “‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.

Is money mentioned? Why indeed it is, when converting the regular tithe to money, you must add a 1/5 to it

31 Whoever would redeem any of their tithe must add a fifth of the value to it.

Anything else mentioned? Why yes there is:

32 Every tithe of the herd and flock

The first tenth right, gross herd and flock not net? Why no, if you only had nine cows you were exempt:

—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord. 33 No one may pick out the good from the bad or make any substitution.

What? If the tenth cow was sick? No, unheard of. Wait, this is the Bible.

If anyone does make a substitution, both the animal and its substitute become holy and cannot be redeemed.’”

People, stick to the Bible. There's more, I know, but at least read what is being discussed.

There's 15 examples of tithes. The one you quote's one of the 7 about livestock and crops, but there's 8 others that are about money and possesions.

MONEY'S included in these 8
Abraham tithes (10%) on all. (All means all. Money's included in all.) Hebrews 7:2, Genesis 14:20

Jacob tithes (10%) of all the Lord gives him. (Money's included in all.) Genesis 28:22

NT tithe (10%) of all that you possess. (Money's included in all.) Luke 18:12

NT Pharisee tithe 10% and Christ said to continue doing it. (This mint and herb tithe is no where to be found in any of the OT Mosaic scriptures. Where'd they get the idea to tithe mint and herbs? Might be the same place we get the idea to tithe money? Pharisees don't own land so this can't be a crop.) Matthew 23:23

Honor the Lord with all your possession. (Money's included in all.) Proverbs 3:9

NT tithing through Christ. (Money's included.) Hebrews 6:20 and Hebrews 7:1-28

The Israelites brought a tithe of everything, including produce. (Money's included in all.) 2 Chronicles 31:5



LIVESTOCK and CROPS - this is what the 7 anti-tithers have been quoting. 7 scriptures out of 15 are about CROPS and LIVESTOCK

Lay aside a tithe of your increase for the Levite and the poor. Remove it from your house and give it. Deuteronomy 26:12-13

Tithe (10%) is holy to the Lord. Leviticus 27:30
1st tithe to support those doing the Lord's work. Leviticus 27:30, Numbers 8

2nd tithe to take family on yearly feast in God's presence. Deuteronomy 14:22-27

3rd tithe is the 2 year poor tithe to look after the poor. Deuteronomy 14:28-29

Tithe of the produce of the land to the Levites. Nehemiah 10:37

Tithe of the tithe to the storehouse by the Levites. Nehemiah 10:38

Malachi tithe into the storehouse. Malachi 3:10

 

[GaryArnold]

You say you're retired and you give 50-100% of you're income to the poor? You say God blesses you the same way He blesses us tithers? You're too angry to be a blessed man. Blessed people talk with a spirit of grace and love.

Abraham, Jacob, and others, tithed apart from the law. So do we NT tithers. We have a joy and a blessing you miss. We talk with a grace and love you don't seem to be able to express. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Where did I say I give 50 - 100% of my income to the poor? You can't even quote me correctly.

I am angry at the false teaching. You may talk with love, but your talk just shows your ignorance of the scriptures. There is no such thing as NT tithing. Man made that up.

It sadens me to see so many God loving church goers so misguided and ignorant of the scriptures.

It is out of love that I do my teaching. I am not paid to teach. My ministry is free. My teaching is free. I accept NO donations to my ministry. None. Yet I have Bible Study instructors and pastors in several countries teaching from my material. I find my material quoted on the web all over the place. Even found youtube videos with a pastor reading from my material.

 

[GaryArnold]

Abraham tithes (10%) on all. (All means all. Money's included in all.) Hebrews 7:2, Genesis 14:20

In Hebrews 7, we see that Abram gave a tenth of the war spoils - NOT a tenth of every single thing Abram owned. Read the story in Genesis 14. Abram was on his way back home when he stopped a gave a tenth of all he had with him.

Jacob tithes (10%) of all the Lord gives him. (Money's included in all.) Genesis 28:22

Jacob made a vow to give a tenth of all the Lord would give to him (in the future). We don't know that Jacob ever gave a tenth of anything. Also, Jacob tried to bargain with the Lord.

NT tithe (10%) of all that you possess. (Money's included in all.) Luke 18:12
Does it also include 10% of their children? Their land? When something says all, without saying what the all is, you have to read the entire story to get the answer. All what?

NT Pharisee tithe 10% and Christ said to continue doing it. (This mint and herb tithe is no where to be found in any of the OT Mosaic scriptures. Where'd they get the idea to tithe mint and herbs? Might be the same place we get the idea to tithe money? Pharisees don't own land so this can't be a crop.) Matthew 23:23
What does Leviticus 27:30 say? "And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree..." Herbs do, in fact, come from the land - from the seed. It's right there. The Scribes and Pharisees had INCOME from their professions of being teachers and lawyers. Did Jesus say they ought to tithe from their income? NO. Also, Jesus referred to "matters of the law" - therefore, they were tithing PER THE LAW, according to Jesus.

Honor the Lord with all your possession. (Money's included in all.) Proverbs 3:9
Does this say honor the Lord with a tenth of all your possessions? NO! Has absolutely NOTHING to do with tithing. And read verse 10.

NT tithing through Christ. (Money's included.) Hebrews 6:20 and Hebrews 7:1-28
Those verses says NOTHING about tithing today. And where is money mentioned?

The Israelites brought a tithe of everything, including produce. (Money's included in all.) 2 Chronicles 31:5
The "everything" referred to here does not mean, literally, everything they owned or they would have had to dig up a tenth of their land. You take all this totally out of context.

This is the same, dishonest trickery that so many pastors use to enrich their pocketbook. Shameful.

 

[WordofHisPower]

Where did I say I give 50 - 100% of my income to the poor? You can't even quote me correctly.

I am angry at the false teaching. You may talk with love, but your talk just shows your ignorance of the scriptures. There is no such thing as NT tithing. Man made that up.

It sadens me to see so many God loving church goers so misguided and ignorant of the scriptures.

It is out of love that I do my teaching. I am not paid to teach. My ministry is free. My teaching is free. I accept NO donations to my ministry. None. Yet I have Bible Study instructors and pastors in several countries teaching from my material. I find my material quoted on the web all over the place. Even found youtube videos with a pastor reading from my material.

Post #323 of the 1rst tithing thread. I can't quote it because the thread's closed, but here's the link to your post. http://www.christianforums.com/t7702086-18/#post61840231

We feel the same way about you, but we speak to you respectfully. There's no excuse to be disrespectful to anyone.

We're praying you'll see the truth on tithing, but you seem to be blinded by tithing teaching, and can't objectively interpret scriptures on tithing.

You've decided all tithing is wrong and close your ears to the pre-law, non-law, post-law tithe scriptures. Your material would have to be altered if you could see what we're saying.

We've told you over and over there's pre-law type tithing, but you want to throw those scriptures out.

Obligatory legalistic tithing is gone. NT tithing of the pre-law type is still here. It never stopped.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

The tithe for NT believers.

It's 10% to the poor, or the work of the Lord, which include missions, outreach.

If you don't know where to give, ask the Lord to lead you. He'll show you where to tithe.

I tithe to my fellowship and they distribute the money to outreach and the poor. We don't have a building to support.

No mortgage? No rent? What do you all use for communal facility? You have no professional, paid staff?

The tithe is a privilege and a blessing. Those who do it, know by experience how true this is.

The idea one can purchase blessing is questionable at best.

If you don't want to give, then don't. In the NT we aren't under law or compulsion.

You're trying to straddle the fence.

One thing to remember is that the fence has razor sharp barbs along the top.....

BTW

 

[WordofHisPower]

Abraham tithes (10%) on all. (All means all. Money's included in all.) Hebrews 7:2, Genesis 14:20

In Hebrews 7, we see that Abram gave a tenth of the war spoils - NOT a tenth of every single thing Abram owned. Read the story in Genesis 14. Abram was on his way back home when he stopped a gave a tenth of all he had with him.

Jacob tithes (10%) of all the Lord gives him. (Money's included in all.) Genesis 28:22

Jacob made a vow to give a tenth of all the Lord would give to him (in the future). We don't know that Jacob ever gave a tenth of anything. Also, Jacob tried to bargain with the Lord.

NT tithe (10%) of all that you possess. (Money's included in all.) Luke 18:12
Does it also include 10% of their children? Their land? When something says all, without saying what the all is, you have to read the entire story to get the answer. All what?

NT Pharisee tithe 10% and Christ said to continue doing it. (This mint and herb tithe is no where to be found in any of the OT Mosaic scriptures. Where'd they get the idea to tithe mint and herbs? Might be the same place we get the idea to tithe money? Pharisees don't own land so this can't be a crop.) Matthew 23:23
What does Leviticus 27:30 say? "And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree..." Herbs do, in fact, come from the land - from the seed. It's right there. The Scribes and Pharisees had INCOME from their professions of being teachers and lawyers. Did Jesus say they ought to tithe from their income? NO. Also, Jesus referred to "matters of the law" - therefore, they were tithing PER THE LAW, according to Jesus.

Honor the Lord with all your possession. (Money's included in all.) Proverbs 3:9
Does this say honor the Lord with a tenth of all your possessions? NO! Has absolutely NOTHING to do with tithing. And read verse 10.

NT tithing through Christ. (Money's included.) Hebrews 6:20 and Hebrews 7:1-28
Those verses says NOTHING about tithing today. And where is money mentioned?

The Israelites brought a tithe of everything, including produce. (Money's included in all.) 2 Chronicles 31:5
The "everything" referred to here does not mean, literally, everything they owned or they would have had to dig up a tenth of their land. You take all this totally out of context.

This is the same, dishonest trickery that so many pastors use to enrich their pocketbook. Shameful.

I'm not a pastor and get nothing out of falsely promoting tithing. I do so because it's scripture and God told me it pleases Him.

You keep trying to make a law out of everything. Abraham tithed of all. Money (gold, silver) would have been part of the spoils.

You keep trying to throw out the Jacob scripture with human reasoning. You can't throw out any scripture. For tithers this is an example of pre-law tithing.

10% of all you possess means your children? I think not. No reasonable person will call their children chattel. All you possess would include money though.

The Pharisees didn't own land, so there's no way you could call this a crop. That's stretching it too far. Christ said do this and keep other matters of the law. He didn't say their herb tithe was one of the laws and you can't find herbs being called crops. Barley, wheat, corn, grapes were the only crops mentioned.

Honor the Lord with all your possessions and with the firstfruits. Firstfruits, tithes, alms, offerings are the only forms of giving to the Lord anywhere in scripture. This type of terminology is used elsewhere for tithing. 10% is the only number associated with any of these 4. IOW firstfruits, tithe, alms, offerings, were all 10%, so whatever you consider this to be, it still ends up 10%.

Tithing through Christ is the new priesthood in the same order as Melchizedek. If 10% went to Melchizedek, it for sure goes to Christ. And tithes is mentioned.

The Isrealites bringing a tithe of everything would make it clear that it's more than crops and livestock. Money would be included.

There's always going to be those who try to embezzle the Lord's money. It's our job to hear the Lord on where to fellowship to avoid unscrupulous ministers. It's not an excuse to withhold tithing.

The people of Israel were unhappy with Aaron's and Eli's wicked sons. But God said to respect the leadership position and let Him deal with the offending individuals. And He did. All the wicked sons were killed.

We're in a much better position today. We can seek out a good fellowship to attend. The Israelites had only the Levite priests.

 

[GaryArnold]

Post #323 of the 1rst tithing thread. I can't quote it because the thread's closed, but here's the link to your post. http://www.christianforums.com/t7702086-18/#post61840231

We've told you over and over there's pre-law type tithing, but you want to throw those scriptures out.

Obligatory legalistic tithing is gone. Faith tithing of the pre-law type is still here. It never stopped.

To quote what I previously said, "Lately, it's been OVER 50%. 100% of what I give goes to Jesus, NOT someone's salary, or a building, utilities, etc. that I, myself, would benefit from."

Over 50% is not 50 - 100%.

There is ONE example of pre-law tithing, and that Abram giving a tenth of property THAT BELONGED TO OTHERS THAT HE RECOVERED. I have told you over and over again that Biblical historians say that it was custom during that time to give a tenth of war spoils to the king. NO OTHER EXAMPLE except for Jacob's vow WITH CONDITIONS that God had to meet, first. NO example of Jacob ever giving a tenth.

There is NO example of "faith tithing" anywhere in the scriptures. If you say that Abram tithed from faith, you have added to the scriptures.

I was taught this so-called NT tithing you believe in. It was when my pastor asked me to teach a Sunday School Class in finances that I started my in-depth study of the tithe. It was then that I saw that I everything I had been taught about tithing was incorrect. When I went back to my pastor and showed him the scriptures, he said he would look at it later and study it. A few weeks later HE STOPPED TEACHING TITHING.

According to the History of the Christian Church, NO pastor in the US ever taught anyone to tithe from their income before 1870.

It is a very slow process in getting the truth out to the masses of church goers. But Liberty University (Baptist) is now teaching future pastors there is NO tithing in the Christian Church. Eventually this false teaching will stop.

Tithing opponents throughout the years as compiled by Dr. David Croteau, Liberty University, You Mean I Don’t Have to Tithe?, p271-292. I've listed just a few of the names below:

Clement of Rome 100
Didache 100
Justin Martyr 165
Tertullian 230
Origen 255
Cyprian 258
Waldenses 1150+-
Thomas Aquinas 1275
John Wycliff 1384
Martin Luther 1546
Roger Williams 1636 Baptist
John Owen 1680 Baptist
John Bunyan 1688 Baptist
Quakers 1768
John Gill 1771 Baptist
John Wesley 1791
BAPTISTS IN AMERICA 1800s
Adam Clarke 1832 Baptist
Charles H Spurgeon 1832 Baptist
Lewis Sperry Chafer 1948 DTS Foundeer
W E Vine 1949
James F Rand 1953
CHARLES C RYRIE 1969 DTS
JOHN MACARTHUR 1982
Charles Swindoll 1990 Dallas Seminary
J VERNON MCGEE 1999
CRAIG BLOMBERG 1993 Denver Seminary
Andreas Kostenberger 2007 Baptist SEBTS
Mark Driscoll 2008
Roman Catholic Church
Jehovah’s Witnesses
New Worldwide Church of God

 

[BeforeThereWas]

There's tithes, alms to the poor, and offerings. It's not a law in the NT, it's a grace. Christ said it's more blessed to give than receive. Acts 20:35

The reason to give is to help the poor (alms) and to spread the gospel. God'll show you how to best do that.

A person's salvation is the highest priority. If you spend all your money to feed them but don't share the gospel with them they'll go to hell with full bellies. God'll give you wisdom if you ask.

Do you believe the institutionalized church organization model is going to bring them to salvation?

No man-made church organization can ever effectively replace each mature believer discipling new converts. Leaving that job to the hirelings of church organizations is about as ineffective as spitting from the top of your house to water the lawn.

The institutional church model has no parallel anywhere in scripture.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Just food for thought. Those who tithe have experienced the truth of this verse.

Proverbs 11:24
One gives freely, yet grows all the richer; another withholds what he should give, and only suffers want.

Tell that to all those faithful tithers out there who have suffered horrible losses.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I mentioned this on the first page of the thread . Because the OP was vague , we now have over 1000 replies . Of course , even with a specific definition in an OP , people would always reply using a different definition and cause the same replies as sidetracks to the thread .

Has not anyone brought up that "Hebrews" states that we already paid the tithe through faith through our father in the faith , Abraham ? Does it matter what Scriptures are used as people always spit on passages the alternate side uses in "discussion? ?

Yes. It was mentioned, but the pro-tithing camp ignored it, as they done to every mention of the fact that the tithe never had anything to do with the wages of wage earners. They ignore all truths that completely knock the legs out from under their stance. Ignoring the most devastating portions of the discussion is nothing more than a tactic.

BTW

 

[WordofHisPower]

@GaryArnold
What one denomination does, doesn't alter scripture. Some denominations ordain homosexuals. Some teach you'll go to hell if you leave their denomination.

Scripture is the final authority, not denominational teachings and history. And those of us who obey what we see in scripture on tithing are blessed.

The Lord (not man) taught me tithing from scripture.

One day we'll all come to one faith on things, but until then we can show each other what we see in scripture.

Whatever you believe about Abraham, the truth is he gave the 10% so it was his to give. If he tithed from something that wasn't his to give, it'd be stealing.

 

[GaryArnold]

Proverbs 11:24
One gives freely, yet grows all the richer; another withholds what he should give, and only suffers want.

The Biblical tithe was a payment. It wasn't giving. It had nothing to do with giving.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

None of the scriptures above say not to tithe. You've only given a list of all the types of professions there were. These weren't wage earners. These were business people.

To think that landowners didn't have other skills and abilities is a bit naive. Every Israelite was given an allotment of land by the Lord (except the Levites). What do you think they did with that land? Not grow crops or raise livestock? I think not. Those with land grew something or raised something.

If you can show us even one verse where wage earners handed over a percentage of their monetary income to the Levites, such as ANY of the MANY, MANY laborers who hired themselves out for labor, then please do so.

As for every Israelite allegedly owning producing lands, that's something else you'll have to prove from scripture. Land area was given to TRIBES, not every individual.

BTW