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To the evolution deniers

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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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This alternative is never used in any other science.

Well, apart from geology, vulcanology, climatology, astronomy, astrophysics, and a few others I can think of, yeah...

It's way of proving a truth is never proven.

If you think that science is in the business of "proving a truth" you need to take a refresher course.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Since when?
For at least 3.5 billion years. That's how long evolution has been happening.

I know from observation that adaptation is fact for most species.
Adaption is evolution. Evolution is a change in allele representation in populations over time.

Evolution must be taken on faith in the material world. A "faith" based on suppositions.
Sorry, but using magic words like "faith" and "suppositions" does not poof away the evidence in a cloud of smoke. Let's whale evolution for example. If they evolved from land dwelling mammals, we'd expect to find some evidence that they had hind limbs, would you agree? Well, it turns out they not only have the gene pathway for hind limb development, but they develop hind limbs in utero.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Define evolution.
You forgot to say please. ;)

Evolution is defined as a change in allele representation in populations over time.

And I believe you have a very hard time proving it is "universally accepted". You would have to ask every single biologist that exists to prove that, then you would have to prove that they accept the definition of evolution you are promoting, and that their understanding is based on truthful research.
1. No. Scientists actually understand the basic definition of evolution so there's no semantic issues with research polls.
2. When members of the AAAS were polled, 98% of them believe humans and other things evolved over time.
For Darwin Day, 6 facts about the evolution debate
FT_16.02.12_darwinDay_420px.png


Moreover, popularity has no bearing on truth.
Yeah, but since science doesn't deal in "truth" that's not germane objection.

So, your question is fallacious.
Are you a big fan of Jason Lisle?
 
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AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
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Please don't give me that line unless you care to admit that Jesus was wrong when he said that the mustard seed is the smallest of ALL seeds.
No, Jesus didn't say that.
 
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xianghua

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You forgot to say please. ;)

Evolution is defined as a change in allele representation in populations over time.


1. No. Scientists actually understand the basic definition of evolution so there's no semantic issues with research polls.
2. When members of the AAAS were polled, 98% of them believe humans and other things evolved over time.

most of them also believe in higher power, including biologists (p38 in the pdf file):

Views on evolution among the public and scientists | NCSE

do you accept their position since they are the majority?

also: according to your definition for evolution- even if human doesnt shared a common descent with apes, evolution is still true. so this is a problematic definition.
 
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DogmaHunter

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(But first, Question 1: A.

Seriously?

Question 2: There is plenty of proof that the earth is spheric, how would days exist the way they are if the earth wasn't?)

There is plenty of evidence, not proof.
ps: there is also plenty of evidence, that we evolved.


For example, in evolution I believe in natural selection. That is a fact. In creation, I believe
God created the world through His mouth and the words that He spoke.
But in evolution, I do not believe we evolved from apes because that is very unbiblical

According to the majority of christians, it isn't "unbiblical" at all.
Having said that, if reality and bible stories don't agree, then it's not reality that is wrong.

In creation, I do not believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. The truth is, I don't know, it very well could be. But God doesn't state the Earth's age in the Bible except through certain lineages of generations. However, we have no idea how much time in between He left out of the Bible so there is no way to prove that. It could billions of years old or just as simple as a few thousand.
Here, you are exposing the error of your ways.

Why would you turn to a 3000 year old book, to find out things about physical reality?
If you wish to find out about physical reality, then "ask the universe". There's a very succesfull methodology for doing this. It's called science.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I would say God gave them what they wanted. How God engineered it He knows. And why do I believe the earth is not flat? Because I don't believe that is what the Bible teaches but is wrong interpretation due to ignorance. Anyway, here is something for you evolutionists...

2
Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So, it's god himself that came up with "false teachings" AND made reality such that ALL the evidence points to that "false teaching" instead of his "truthful bible"?

And you think that is reasonable?
 
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DogmaHunter

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The majority of biologists accept evolution, yes. I believe that this is because evolution provides the best natural explanation for the development of life. When one rejects the possibility of a supernatural development of life then they must adhere to the theory of evolution out of necessity.
Emphasis mine. The bolded part asserts / implies that only atheist biologists accept evolution.

This is wrong. Extremely wrong.
The majority of christians, in fact, have no problems with mainstream natural sciences.

Among scientific circles, that majority becomes an overwhelming majority.
Do you know Francis Collins by any chance? He's a devout christian and a biologist.

You can read what he thinks about evolution in my signature.

The Bible does not state the shape of the earth. As a result, I accept that it is spherical because it has been proven to be spherical.

The bible also states that as a true believer, you should be able to drink snake poison and walk away unharmed.

I know of one person who put that to the test and he's not around any more. Unsurprisingly.

The bible, says a lot of things.
 
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DogmaHunter

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as for the first question: i think that many biologists just believe in evolution because they never heared about the evidences against it. even prof behe admit that he never heared about the problems with evolution untill he read the book "evolution, a theory in cryeis" by dr michael denton.

by the way; do you have a real survey that can show us what are the real number for believing in evolution among biologists?

There's always Project Steve.
 
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DogmaHunter

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In a nutshell, this is because humans do what they can, they won't what they can't. Science are experiment based. In the case of evolution lab cannot be established as the proposed evolution will take million years to occur. Scientists thus need to find the alternative to prove the point. This alternative is never used in any other science. It's way of proving a truth is never proven.

You're completely mistaken. Many, many aspects of science can only ever be studied/tested either indirectly or on a much smaller scale then the phenomena or event being investigated.

For example, good luck recreating an actual volcano eruption in a lab....
Another example, we were building nukes YEARS before anyone EVER directly observed an atom.

For any and all purposes, atoms were only theoretical. We didn't have microscopes powerfull enough to actually observe atoms directly.

Yet another example: forensic science. Criminal investigations. Good luck recreating a murder in a lab. By definition, to find out what happened at a crime scence, the ONLY thing you can work with is indirect circumstantial evidence.

Your assertion that evolution theory (well, evolution history, to be exact) is somehow "special" in that respect is utterly false.

It's also just about evolution history, as the theory itself merely details the process by which it occurs. And that process is very very testable. Every single aspect of it.

As for the larger scale stuff, this process works in a specific way. That means that it can make predictions about what kind of data we should and shouldn't find. All those predictions are testable. So we can unravel our evolutionary history simply by those predictions and studying the collective DNA of species and cross reference those findings with the fossil record and the geographic distribution of species.

And it all checks out. It all fits the model like a glove.

However, as long as they can't bring the process up as a lab case

That can and have and do it all the time.


, all they can do is to draw conclusions from this alternative which is never applicable to any other science

As explained above, this is not only merely "applicable", it is even actively used in most other sciences.

To put it another way, this alternative can be universally accepted in the circle of biologists simply because there's not a better alternative out there as long as the bottom line is not to introduce God into the formula!


Again the implication that only atheist biologists accept evolution.
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.
Francis Collins, devout christian, world renown biologist. You can read what he thinks about evolution in my signature.

So now you know.... being atheist or theist does not determine accepting the reality of biological evolution.

It however by no means says that it's it truth! It by no means says that "God created it" cannot be a truth, either! This is so because the focus of science is more about how a process will repeat in the future, instead of how a process occurred in a long past!

No. It's because science doesn't pretend to have the answers before asking the question.
And when you first ask the question, "god" is not what you come up with. Evolution is.
 
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DogmaHunter

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On the other hand, it looks suspicious for those non-scientists but atheistic evolutionists to try to open such a 'scientific' debate in each and every Christian forums. There seems to be an agenda behind the scene, I mean spiritually speaking.

Christians operate this forum and it is those christians who felt there was a need for a sub-forum called "creation and evolution".

We as visitors of this forum are just posting in that christian-created section.
Can we? Thanks.
 
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BradB

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As this is not a debate forum I'm not going to try to defend the theory of evolution. I'm not even educated enough to do so. But I do have two questions for those of you who deny evolution.

Question 1


Why is evolution universally accepted among biologists?

a) All biologists from all nations are conspiring together to advance the lie of evolution for some reason, presumably under the influence of Satan.

b) All biologists from all nations are mistaken, but are not knowingly lying or under Satanic influence. Somehow, the idea of evolution became popular and the scientific community is unable to see that which is obvious to uneducated laymen.

c) Other (please explain).

Question 2


If you accept that evolution is false despite being universally accepted among biologists, why accept the idea that the earth is a sphere? Universal acceptance of this notion should be irrelevant, and the idea of a spherical earth is counter-intuitive. Also, a plain reading of the Bible, together with knowledge of ancient Hebrew cosmology, strongly indicates a flat earth, as shown below. Why do you not believe in a flat earth? If you do believe in a flat earth, please just say so.


Firstly I would point out that not "all" biologists universally agree with the theory of evolution as you mean it. Meaning the notion of universal common descent. There are many biologists who actually accept special creation. They are typically not given the main stream media attention like the UCD folks are, but they exist. Secondly What you are attempting to do is base the validity of a theory on the sheer number of its supporters. But is popular opinion really a good way to decide truth? I'm glad you brought up the flat earth deal. Did you know that during the ancient Roman times in the Roman providence, the popular scientific consensus was that the world was indeed flat. However one lone Jewish man stood out from that popular view and claimed at a specific hour of time there would be two people in bed sleeping (night activity), two people grinding at the mill (morning activity), and two people working in the field (mid-day activity). This Jewish man was of course the Lord Jesus Christ describing His return to His followers. So here is Jesus during the time of a popular scientific belief of a flat earth claiming conditions to exist at the same hour which could only exist on a spherical earth. My point here bowls down both of your pins in one strike. A. popular opinion means squat, and B. we accept the earth is a sphere because physical observation shows it is and not only that the Lord told us it was before this ever was an observed fact.

As for the theory of UCD aka evolution, I would ask you two questions please. Since both evolution and creation predicts similarities between the various life forms (having a common creator is just as feasible as a common ancestor) then what evidence is there for evolution that does not employ a similarity argument? In fact there are only two types of evidences that would not employ similarity as the basis. 1. A finely graduated chain of fossils leading from one major form to another would prove it happened in the fossil record. Unfortunately no such finely graduated chain has ever been found. In fact that is why the late great Stephan Gould created the Punctuated Equilibrium theory. It was created to explain that evolution happens too fast to be recorded in the fossil record. In other words “there is no evidence in the fossil record apart from similarity arguments.” 2. An example of at least one observed random mutation adding new and beneficial information to the genome of a multi-celled organism would at least demonstrate it could have happened. Unfortunately again there is no such observation of anything of the kind. So my friend regardless of what popular opinion says, there is no evidence apart from similarity for the theory. And the similarity is just as easily expected to be there had all life been formed by a creator. So what sets special creation ahead of evolution apart from similarity? Well had all life been formed by design we would expect to find design in life in the form of specificity. Meaning anything created with observed intent or purpose. Not only do we observe specificity in all living things the very DNA molecule in all living things contains a specified code that warps our most sophisticated computer software programs by comparison.
 
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KWCrazy

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Why is evolution universally accepted among biologists?
It is not, as has been pointed out. Universally means 100%, and you can't get 100% of any group to agree on anything. One out of five dentists prefer sugary gum, for Pete's sake.
Secondly, why would you take the opinions of anyone who studies the physical world for a living to know anything about the supernatural?
Third, the premise of your argument is that those who do not believe you are evolution deniers. Why are you a creation denier? Jesus was not.

Also, a plain reading of the Bible, together with knowledge of ancient Hebrew cosmology, strongly indicates a flat earth, as shown below.
It doesn't matter what the Hebrews believed, the Bible doe not teach a flat earth. In Job, we read that God hangs the earth on nothing. Jesus talks about removing our sins as far as the east is from the west. That requires a knowledge of how the world turns.

Ask yourself why you deny creation? Why do you come here teaching false doctrine? Why do you think we haven't heard off of this before? Why would you think we would give the opinions of those who study living things supremacy over the word of the creator of all life?
 
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DogmaHunter

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Firstly I would point out that not "all" biologists universally agree with the theory of evolution as you mean it. Meaning the notion of universal common decent. There are many biologists who actually accept special creation.

You are confusing evolution theory with the hypothesis of abiogenesis.
Evolution deals with the origins of diversity.
Abiogenesis deals with the origins of life itself.

A god, extra-dimensional aliens or a natural process being the origins of life, changes nothing for evolution theory. Evolution isn't about the origins of life.

They are typically not given the main stream media attention like the UCD folks are, but they exist.

Yeah. Flat earthers exist as well. Curiously, they also aren't given any attention on the "main stream media".

Secondly What you are attempting to do is base the validity of a theory on the sheer number of its supporters. But is popular opinion really a good way to decide truth?


Scientific consensus, is quite a different beast then "popular opinion".
To equate the two is either dishonest or just ignorant.

A. popular opinion means squat,

I agree.

and B. we accept the earth is a sphere because physical observation shows it is

Just like physical observation, shows evolution.

and not only that the Lord told us it was before this ever was an observed fact.

Doesn't really matter what one believes "the lord" told anyone. In the end, it's reality that gets the last word anyway.

The "Lord" can say whatever he wants. If reality disagrees - it's not reality that is wrong.


As for the theory of UCD aka evolution, I would ask you two questions please. Since both evolution and creation predicts similarities between the various life forms (having a common creator is just as feasible as a common ancestor) then what evidence is there for evolution that does not employ a similarity argument?

As far as evolution goes, it's not "just" about "similarity".
It's about the pattern of similarity.

The evolutionary process predicts one very specific pattern.
And it is exactly that pattern that we find in nature.

It's also exactly that last pattern we would expect from many independend "creation events".

And that pattern is the nested hierarchy.

A creator who independently creates humans, bonobo's, chimps, ... would NOT give them all the exact same broken gene. He would NOT stuff a bunch of identical ERV's in their genomes in exactly the same location, which in the real world only happens when a common ancestor gets infected by the initial infection and then passes it on to off spring in the form of an ERV. Because that's what ERV's are: genetic remnants of viruses that infected one of the ancestors. So if 2 individuals share an identical ERV, it means they share an ancestor in which that infection took place.

The nested pattern is found everywhere and at all levels.
It is found in comparative anatomy, it is found in entire DNA strings, it is found in mere sections of DNA, it is found when tracing single genes,... it even matches the geographic distribution of species.

So, to conclude...

If evolution is true, then the nested hierarchy is the only possible outcome.
If creation is true, then the nested hierarchy is the last pattern we would expect. The creator would have to go OUT OF HIS WAY to create everything in such a way that it falls into such a pattern. It would be a very deceptive move on his part.

Combine that with the fact that there isn't one iota of evidence that this creator:
a. even exists
and
b. did anything at all, ever

...what would be the obvious conclusion here?

In fact there are only two types of evidences that would not employ similarity as the basis. 1. A finely graduated chain of fossils leading from one major form to another would prove it happened in the fossil record. Unfortunately no such finely graduated chain has ever been found.

And it never will. Fossilization is a VERY rare process. What you are asking for here, is akin to me asking you for a picture of your face of EVERY second of your entire life, just to "prove" to me that you are aging.

It's not reasonable to demand such a thing.

In fact that is why the late great Stephan Gould created the Punctuated Equilibrium theory.

Close, but no cigare.

It was created to explain that evolution happens too fast to be recorded in the fossil record.

Nope, that wasn't the reason at all.

The reason was that the fossil record exhibits periods of relatively small to no changes and other periods of accelerated changes/evolution.

PE explains these differences in "speed" of evolution. In a nutshell: it puts more importance on the role of the overall environment in terms of selection pressures as well as what is also called "the local optimum".

Basically, if the environment stays stable, then there is a "balance" in the eco-system. Evolution will "slow down" as population approach their "local optimum". This is a "form" in which they are the "best adapted" version of themselves for the niche they find themselves in.

During that time, there will be very little evolution.
In other periods, things change up. And as eco-systems are very much intertwined, a few small changes can quickly run out of control and seriously stir things up. Species disappear, species migrate, climate changes, jungle turns desert or desert turns jungle, rivers form, lakes dry up, etc....

Such things heavily mess with selection pressures. When selection pressures change, so do local optimums. Now, populations no longer are the "best adapted" version of themselves for the niche they inhabit. In fact, their niche might be heavily changing. Populations then adapt rather quickly, due to new selection pressures being in play. Populations that for some reason or another can't adapt quickly enough, disappear (which is what an estimated 99.9% of all species that ever lived, have done: gone extinct)

In other words “there is no evidence in the fossil record apart from similarity arguments.”

As I just explained: false.
The fossil record exhibits the exact same nested hierarchy pattern as everywhere else we look. They match in anatomy, in strata they are found in, in the geographic location where they are found, etc.

2. An example of at least one observed random mutation adding new and beneficial information to the genome of a multi-celled organism would at least demonstrate it could have happened. Unfortunately again there is no such observation of anything of the kind.

False again.

Bacteria becoming immune to anti-biotics: pretty beneficial for the bacteria
Insects becoming immune to pesticides: pretty beneficial for the insects
Tibetans having unique gene sequences, not found anywhere else, allowing them to live at high altitudes without getting sick: pretty beneficial for those living on high altitudes.

And then there's they many, many evolution experiments, with control populations and everything, where we have seen speciation happen right under our noses.

So my friend regardless of what popular opinion says, there is no evidence apart from similarity for the theory

Being ignorant of the evidence and what the theory actually says, is not an argument against it though.


And the similarity is just as easily expected to be there had all life been formed by a creator.

As explained: nope!
Not a single "creator" would ever created a bunch of "products" with a nested hierachy. Ever.

So what sets special creation ahead of evolution apart from similarity?

Nothing at all. It is not even merely "behind".
One is a religious faith-based belief and the other is a scientific model of reality.

Well had all life been formed by design we would expect to find design in life in the form of specificity. Meaning anything created with observed intent or purpose.

Really?

So what was the purpose of giving Homo Sapiens a mouth that is actually to small to house all its teeth, which is why most people have to have their wisdom teeth pulled out to avoid agony?

What was the purpose of giving Homo Sapiens a spine that isn't fit for bipedalism, giving 70% of all humans chronic lower backpains at some point in their life?

What was the purpose of having Homo Sapiens breath and eat through the same tube, putting it under heavy risk of choking to death while eating?

What was the purpose of giving all primates the exact same broken genes?

All these things are explained easily, with evidence, in context of evolution.

Not only do we observe specificity in all living things the very DNA molecule in all living things contains a specified code that warps our most sophisticated computer software programs by comparison.

No. DNA, from an engineering perspective, is a redundant, inefficient mess.
Chickens, for example, cary with them a whole bunch of inactive and broken DNA to build teeth.

From an evolutionary perspective, that is normal - as their ancestors were dino's with teeth.
From a creation perspective.... it is just dumb and stupid to inject such energy consuming nonsense in their for no apparant reason.
 
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BradB

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You are confusing evolution theory with the hypothesis of abiogenesis. Evolution deals with the origins of diversity. Abiogenesis deals with the origins of life itself.

I think you misread what I said. I was talking about the typical meaning of evolution which is universal common descent. This also has nothing to do with abiogenesis. UCD aka big evolution is the notion that all life has a common ancestor. The theory basically says that through random mutations and natural selection all life is related. This is where evolutionists love to get their foot in the door and suddenly pull a switch. They will tell us that evolution is nothing more than observed small changes in a population of an organism over time. If left at that definition all knowledgeable creationists are also evolutionists. However once they get everyone chanting "yeah evolution is a fact," they suddenly switch the definition to being "small changes over vast amounts of time lead to one form evolving into a completely different form." This is far from a fact. We do observe small changes take place in populations of organisms all the time as a result of natural selection. However the problem is that these changes have nothing to do with random mutations. That is nothing more than a fairytale equal to a frog becoming a handsome prince. The idea that over large amounts of time these small changes will eventually lead to very large changes stems from a completely ignorant understanding of what caused these small changes to begin with. All changes observed "so far" (in the evidence) shows these changes have been the result of natural selection "selecting" already existing genes in the gene pool. All organisms have an enormous number of copies of the same genes in the gene pool from with which natural selection can select. These copies are called alleles and are what cause things like different colored hair, eyes, flower pedals, and height. For example if you calculated the total number of varieties available in the 23 chromosomes of the human male and multiplied that by the total number of varieties available in the 23 chormomes of the human female, you wind up with a combined total of varieties available that is well in the trillions.

Scientific consensus, is quite a different beast then "popular opinion". To equate the two is either dishonest or just ignorant.

Well without schooling me on the "difference" then I guess you have chosen to leave me in "ignorance." From my perspective there is little to no difference.

Just like physical observation, shows evolution.

Your like a guy claiming his 12 year old son is the greatest baseball player in the world. When someone says what about Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron? You reply, I don't believe they existed so they don't count. Basically you validate your observations to be interpreted "your way" by eliminating (waving away) the competing views in your own mind. Is there a lot of physical evidence for evolution? Absolutely. It's all based on similarity, and when someone points out to you that similarity could be the result of a common creator, then you just reply "I don't believe in a creator so it must be a result of evolution."

The "Lord" can say whatever he wants. If reality disagrees - it's not reality that is wrong.

Absolutely correct. And this is how the Bible is validated. It agrees with all known science, all known history, is free of inconsistencies, and 100% prophetically accurate. It passes what I call the SHIP test.

A creator who independently creates humans, bonobo's, chimps, ... would NOT give them all the exact same broken gene.

No He wouldn't. However they may have many of the same genes and when creation became cursed those same genes became "broken" in the same way.

More later
Gotta go
 
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Ophiolite

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When you come back, just to help me deal with my OCD, could you call it common descent, not common decent?

That would be awfully descent, I mean decent of you.
 
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pitabread

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We do observe small changes take place in populations of organisms all the time as a result of natural selection. However the problem is that these changes have nothing to do with random mutations.

Just curious, but do you believe that mutations actually occur?
 
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redleghunter

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For at least 3.5 billion years. That's how long evolution has been happening.

Where is the written historical evidence to backup the supposition? There must have been some eyewitness accounts going back that far....

Adaption is evolution. Evolution is a change in allele representation in populations over time.

Yes, feathers do change on some birds.

Sorry, but using magic words like "faith" and "suppositions" does not poof away the evidence in a cloud of smoke. Let's whale evolution for example. If they evolved from land dwelling mammals, we'd expect to find some evidence that they had hind limbs, would you agree? Well, it turns out they not only have the gene pathway for hind limb development, but they develop hind limbs in utero.

If Whales evolved from land dwelling mammals we would 'see' the transitional forms. However, we can only assume what is missing in-between.

Magic words? Like chance plus a lot of time; unguided development; no purpose. Sounds like a weekend in Las Vegas.
 
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