To spank or not to spank please vote

[Robinsegg]

And which way of disciplining you for your anger do your children generally prefer?

I don't discipline my children for anger, but for badly displaying anger. It's usually isolation. I "punish" myself for anger by isolating myself for a few minutes. The isolation (for me or my children) is only time to get hold of our emotions, then we areallowed back with others, and to apologize.

I don't spank my kids for displays of anger. I spank when I've told them not to do something, they look at me and do it anyway. One pop on the rear.

However, it's not my primary way of discipline, as I prefer to talk to them or take something important away from them.

Rachel

 

[armyman_83]

I didn't try.
The point of my comment was that if you start with the assumption that hitting children is wrong, then there was harm in your having been hit, in that it leads you to believe it's ok. On the other hand, if you start from the assumption that hitting children is wrong then it appears no harm has been done to you. Both are circular reasoning.

There is a difference between abuse and spanking (or corporal punishment). Hitting children, or anyone, without cause is wrong. But when a child willfully and deceitfully disobeys, after telling them to stop wrongdoing then it is not abuse—it is “spanking” (corporal punishment).

The fact that something has always been done doesn't make it ok. In fact you don't have the bible on your side, since you (admittedly) don't use a rod. As soon as you free up the interpretation you open the possibility that corporal punishment is not ok.

I did not make a blanket saying that all things in the past are good. I was talking about this incident. The bible, as the verses we have talked about and history show that corporal punishment has been used. And the passage(s) from the bible says it is good.
Prov 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (diligently)."
Prov 19:18: "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."
Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."
Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."
Prov 29:15: "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."

If you can’t understand that a paddle is a like a rod then you have more problems than I can solve. I believe that a “rod” should be used, whether it is a stick, a paddle, etc; something hard enough to punish but to not tear the skin or break bones. That is as far as my interpretation goes on that verse.

So, if the law of your nation can remove your right to hit me, it can remove the right to hit your children. If the law of your nation did allow you to hit me for arguing, would you think it biblically commended?

Perhaps you should look at the word and what it means: luwts {loots}
1) to scorn, make mouths at, talk arrogantly
a) (Qal)
1) to boast
2) to scorn
b) (Hiphil)
1) to mock, deride
2) to interpret (language)
a) interpreter (participle)
b) ambassador (fig.)
c) (Hithpalpel) to be inflated, scoff, act as a scorner, show oneself a mocker

You are not being a mocker, you are of a different opinion. Though one might take offense, seeing as you have called me an abuser. If it were legal and if you were a mocker then I might challenge you, but I doubt I would seeing that the LORD hath put mercy in my heart.

As above. You are evading the biblical question by hiding behind national law.

“Render unto Caesar the things with which are Caesar’s…” Or have you not heard these words?

So the people who ban you from hitting me, and ban people from killing their children, are unjust and foolish for doing so?

They do not follow Torah, yet I respect their the laws of my nation because I am called to do so.

 

[Jasminrose]

I was spanked as a child and I feel I'm just as fine because of it. I don't have children, but I would like to adopt. Honestly I can't see myself ever hitting my child whether I thought of it as spanking or not. I think it would break my heart just to do it. I do however believe that proper and loving discipline is very important, I'm just not sure what I will do, but I see a lot of examples of what I wouldn't do.

My husband is launching a site for dads and we're trying to get the forums going, can you cast your vote on whether or not to spank a child is okay? the link to the thread is

http://www.notmrmom.com/forums/nfphpbb/viewtopic.php?t=6

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Sure there is a difference in degree. Whether there is harm done or not by spanking is the very topic of this thread and has not been agreed upon yet. I personally think spanking does harm.
What we call it is not really that important in the end of the day.

Like I said...if you spank a kid and they get injured emotionally or physically...then that's harmful or if it's done to intentionally cause this, it's harmful...but I definitely don't find spanking to be that if done appropriately out of love to begin w/...I know for a fact since I myself was spanked and I'm very glad I was.

Also, if you examine society...in this time and age where spanking is decreased...children have become more wild and uncontrolable. They treat those in authority over them, such as parents and teachers, as trash and behave completely disrespectful and do all kinds of things that wouldn't even have been imaginable just 40 years ago...when spanking was more of a norm.

 

[quatona]

Like I said...if you spank a kid and they get injured emotionally or physically...then that's harmful or if it's done to intentionally cause this, it's harmful...but I definitely don't find spanking to be that if done appropriately out of love to begin w/...

You find this, I don´t. I don´t think there is an "appropriate" way of spanking - it´s inappropriate and inacceptable behaviour, for me. I think it is harmful. I don´t know that intentions necessarily translate into effects.
I agree in that feeling generally loved for a child helps it deal with inappropriate behaviour of the parents.

I know for a fact since I myself was spanked and I'm very glad I was.

Discussing this would necessitate psychologizing and talking about your person, which I´m sure neither you nor I want to do.

Also, if you examine society...in this time and age where spanking is decreased...children have become more wild and uncontrolable.

You do know that I don´t regard young age an argument, but in this particular case I think you are too young to have long term observations and experiences that allow you to make such a statement.
Even if this were accurate: it takes more to determine there to be a causation where there´s a coincidence.

They treat those in authority over them, such as parents and teachers, as trash and behave completely disrespectful and do all kinds of things that wouldn't even have been imaginable just 40 years ago...when spanking was more of a norm.

See above.

 

[quatona]

I don't discipline my children for anger, but for badly displaying anger. It's usually isolation. I "punish" myself for anger by isolating myself for a few minutes.

Do you think your children understand that you are "punishing" yourself, or isn´t it more likely that it translates as a sanction against them, the more as it´s them who have to go?

The isolation (for me or my children) is only time to get hold of our emotions, then we areallowed back with others, and to apologize.

Great. I think that apologizing to children makes a good role model.

I don't spank my kids for displays of anger.

I agree, that wouldn´t be a good idea.

I spank when I've told them not to do something, they look at me and do it anyway. One pop on the rear.

If I were your child I probably would understand that obedience is your highest priority.

However, it's not my primary way of discipline, as I prefer to talk to them or take something important away from them.

I like the idea of talking to them. I don´t like the idea of taking something important away from them very much. I wouldn´t want anyone to do that to me, just because he doesn´t like what I do.

 

[Robinsegg]

I don´t like the idea of taking something important away from them very much. I wouldn´t want anyone to do that to me, just because he doesn´t like what I do.

Well, be that as it may, it prepares them well for adult life. If your boss doesn't like what you do, he may simply not give you a bonus or promotion, but he may also fire you. If the government doesn't like what you do, it fines you or puts you in their version of time out (jail/prison).

Rachel

 

[DivineRAiN]

Rae: That is true. But I do believe intentionally hitting a child is never justifiable. It is not discipline, but it is abuse. And attempts to justify child abuse anger me.

When I think of physical abuse towards children, I think of 2 particular children outside of my Mother's family. I used to babysit for a woman who lost parental rights to her first son after he ended up in a body cast. And my step siblings had a niece, she was abused by her step-mother. The step-mother is spending the rest of her life in prison for murder. Along with the head trauma that took her life at 2yrs old, she had cigarette burns, another burn from a heat vent, bruises from being abused during that weekend. Before that, the Mother had her suspicions that her little girl was being abused when her 2 children spent weekends with their Father.. she had her daughter seen by their doctor n contacted CPS.
When I think of physical abuse, I don't think I should be thinking about spankings... it waters down the word to me.
A child being abused is in real danger of being killed.. my Grandfather didn't kill any of his kids but he could have, and he probably came close. All 4 of them are productive members of society, but they are left with scars.. one aunt has huge chunks of her childhood missing from her memory.

When few people claim to have scars from being spanked, it makes me wonder if it was a Montel Williams show? Oprah? I never hear anyone from around here talk about having scars from being spanked, nor is it considered abuse.

This discussion gets brought up every now n then.. especially since a neighbor was arrested for child abuse. It probably wouldn't have happened if he had went to a store in Detroit. But anyway, he told his daughter that if she kept playing with the door handle or something, he would break her fingers. That's a pretty common saying here.. ppl don't actually break their kid's fingers. Someone in the parkinglot heard what he said n turned him in. It's rediculous. And then the judge said she believed he was sexually abusing his daughter because he spoils her. He had to move out of his home and for months after their 2nd child was born he wasn't allowed to be there.
And what makes this even more rediculous, he doesn't spank his kids. The Mother does.. she takes care of the discipline.
The kids have him so wrapped, he's a softy.
The sad part is the time that CPS spends on ppl like him, children like my sibling's niece fall thru the cracks. (falling thru the cracks, that's how they put it in the papers n on the news)

 

[ebia]

I view any physical punishment that leaves a mark, that causes persistent harm, or that is done in anger abuse.

Therein lies the difficulty. Physical persistent harm is easy to spot, but psychological harm is much less clear cut, and frequently far, far worse.

 

[ebia]

ebia: Do you beat your child with a rod?

I think the rod was more symbolic to how a sheep herder uses a rod to guide the sheep? You don't use an actual rod on yer kids.

Please to hear it. In that case it isn't the clear-cut justification for physical punishment that some would pretend it is.

 

[ebia]

There is a difference between abuse and spanking (or corporal punishment). Hitting children, or anyone, without cause is wrong. But when a child willfully and deceitfully disobeys, after telling them to stop wrongdoing then it is not abuse—it is “spanking” (corporal punishment).

I don't accept the distinction you make. We don't accept it for adults, we can't accept it for children.

I did not make a blanket saying that all things in the past are good. I was talking about this incident.


The bible, as the verses we have talked about and history show that corporal punishment has been used.

That doesn't justifiy it. The fact that something has been used in the past is not justification.

And the passage(s) from the bible says it is good.
Prov 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (diligently)."

Taken absolutely literally this is demonstrably untrue. As soon as a degree of interpretation is allowed the case is far from clear-cut.

Prov 19:18: "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."

No problem with that - discipline is essential.

Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."
Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."
Prov 29:15: "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."

See above

If you can’t understand that a paddle is a like a rod then you have more problems than I can solve. I believe that a “rod” should be used, whether it is a stick, a paddle, etc; something hard enough to punish but to not tear the skin or break bones. That is as far as my interpretation goes on that verse.

Shrug. An interpretation is an interpretation.

Perhaps you should look at the word and what it means: luwts {loots}
1) to scorn, make mouths at, talk arrogantly
a) (Qal)
1) to boast
2) to scorn
b) (Hiphil)
1) to mock, deride
2) to interpret (language)
a) interpreter (participle)
b) ambassador (fig.)
c) (Hithpalpel) to be inflated, scoff, act as a scorner, show oneself a mocker

You are not being a mocker, you are of a different opinion. Though one might take offense, seeing as you have called me an abuser. If it were legal and if you were a mocker then I might challenge you, but I doubt I would seeing that the LORD hath put mercy in my heart.

Cop-out.

They do not follow Torah, yet I respect their the laws of my nation because I am called to do so.

That doesn't answer the question - more evasion.

 

[ebia]

Also, if you examine society...in this time and age where spanking is decreased...children have become more wild and uncontrolable. They treat those in authority over them, such as parents and teachers, as trash and behave completely disrespectful and do all kinds of things that wouldn't even have been imaginable just 40 years ago...when spanking was more of a norm.

Rubbish. This "golden age" never existed. The kind of misbehaviours that my father got up to at school, were uncommon by the time I was at school (when physical punishments had become much rarer), and simply don't happen at the school I teach at now. As many teachers will tell you things haven't got worse as will tell you they have (despite the nostalgia effect).

Kids now are more open, less secretive, and less willing to take stuff at face value because they are exposed to an array of media that simply didn't exist. Behaviour is different, but it isn't worse.

 

[ebia]

Well, be that as it may, it prepares them well for adult life. If your boss doesn't like what you do, he may simply not give you a bonus or promotion, but he may also fire you. If the government doesn't like what you do, it fines you or puts you in their version of time out (jail/prison).

Rachel

So we should model and perpetuate the world's inadequacies? What a bizaar idea.

 

[DivineRAiN]

quatona: Do you think your children understand that you are "punishing" yourself, or isn´t it more likely that it translates as a sanction against them, the more as it´s them who have to go?

I'll send my daughter to her room when I know I'm too angry to even deal with it at the moment. I don't consider it a punishment to myself tho.. it's giving me time to cool down n think. Why I don't send myself out of the room.. my kid is in trouble for some reason, she can think about it while she's in her room. I have no qualms with playing trump here, I am her Mother. I'm not her buddy or friend. Our Mother n daughter relationship is what it is, I won't have things getting switched.


I don´t like the idea of taking something important away from them very much. I wouldn´t want anyone to do that to me, just because he doesn´t like what I do.

it seems to me that some ppl don't want to make kids upset, mad, maybe afraid their children will hate them for a moment.
Too many parents are trying to be their child's friend. And too many parents are trying to put themselves in their child's place.. would I like someone to dictate to me what time I should go to bed?.. if I don't like it, why would I do that to my child? I didn't like it when I had curfew, so I let my 14yo daughter decide when she wants to come in. To me, this kind of parenting is easy (kinda lazy). I don't want to be that kind of parent.

 

[DivineRAiN]

ebia: So we should model and perpetuate the world's inadequacies? What a bizaar idea.

you believe there shouldn't be any consequences for our actions?

 

[Robinsegg]

So we should model and perpetuate the world's inadequacies? What a bizaar idea.

You may find it bizarre all you like. But we must prepare our children for the world in which they will live. We prepare our children to live in a capitalist society. We prepare our children to live in a representative democracy. We prepare them to follow the rule of law and know there are consequences for their actions.

What I was responding to was someone saying they didn't like the idea of taking something important away from a child as punishment. They don't like the idea of spanking. They want the child "talked to". Unfortunately, that's not very effective with most kids. Kids need boundaries and consequences to know the adults around them care enough about them to enforce them (boundaries). I've seen children whose parents denied them this. One, at 2.5yo, tried to hit my 3 month-old. He was an hellion, too. When I sat him down and gave him consequences the second time he tried it, he quit. I've not had trouble with him for the 3 years since. He respects me.

I show children respect when they deserve it, and give them consequences when the children deserve them. This causes the children to respect me (and they seem to love me).

Rachel

 

[armyman_83]

I don't accept the distinction you make. We don't accept it for adults, we can't accept it for children.

Adults are different from children. Or are they the same in your country?

That doesn't justifiy it. The fact that something has been used in the past is not justification.

It shows that it has been used, experience so to speak. To provide no evidence, either biblical nor secular but use blanket assaults, saying its abuse, is shows you have no justification (at least I am using History and the Bible).

Taken absolutely literally this is demonstrably untrue. As soon as a degree of interpretation is allowed the case is far from clear-cut.

I am sorry you don't have enough wisdom to discern this passage. Maybe you should try other versions.

No problem with that - discipline is essential.

That is what I am talking about, but I am talking about corporal discipline in this case (as that is what this thread is about). So you just agree with me. "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."

See above

See above.

Shrug. An interpretation is an interpretation.

Cop-out.

Cop-out.

Not really. You see you asked me something that didn't apply. You asked me if I would strike you because we disagreed (basing it on that verse) while in truth the verse said nothing about being in an argument. Disagreeing and mocking is different if you didn't know Merion Webster dictionary is a good site to at.

That doesn't answer the question - more evasion.

They do not respect Torah, which is the Word of God, thus it is wrong (thought you would see this point).

 

[Niels]

Personal experience has taught me that spanking is harmful. Anyone that strikes a child is a brute.


Children need to grow up with their wills and spirits intact in order to function in a competitive society.

 

[Penny_Lane]

yes! some children shoul be spanked or hit or whatever, but only if theyre being jerks to other people. my sister is very spoilt and sometimes calls my parents a-holes and many other things , no one can stand her, children need discipline or theyll end up a bunch of selfish ,spoiled bratts

 

[dlamberth]

yes! some children shoul be spanked or hit or whatever, but only if theyre being jerks to other people. my sister is very spoilt and sometimes calls my parents a-holes and many other things , no one can stand her, children need discipline or theyll end up a bunch of selfish ,spoiled bratts

I ask this only from my own experience with my children, but starting when your sister and yourself were very young, did your parents set and enforce strong boundaries. I didn't and I wish I had. I had boundaries, but didn't really enforce them until it was too late. When my children got older, spanking became my only recourse because I did not teach them boundaries when they were young.
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