To Seem, Rather Than To Be? (Trans Ideology)

[RDKirk]

Ummm, YES.

Trans folk straight up tell you that "man" and "woman" are subjective terms that don't entail hard facts like biology, but when trans folk use those terms that way, you all act like biology is what defines them. That is a text book equivocation fallacy.

I'm fine with saying that it's all biology, and that biological sports do not change the definition.

 

[Moral Orel]

I'm fine with saying that it's all biology

That's not how language works. That's not how communication works. I tell you how I am using a word so that you understand the concept I'm trying to convey. You don't tell me what I mean when I use a word.

and that biological sports do not change the definition.

We segregate sports based on biological sex, not on gender.

 

[RDKirk]

That's not how language works. That's not how communication works. I tell you how I am using a word so that you understand the concept I'm trying to convey. You don't tell me what I mean when I use a word.

You tell me how you use a word.
Frank tells me how he uses that word.
Becky tells me how she uses that word.
Brent tells me how he uses that word.
Hakim tells me how he uses that word.
Moisha tells me how she uses that word.

That's not how language works, either.

 

[didactics]

In the spirit of the thread and the attitude of "tell the truth no matter the feelings" I'm going to respond to the following quote in kind.

I don't care.

I assumed it would matter, because earlier you pointed out that Promise Keepers (a Christian organization) is no different in its teaching than what transgenderism teaches. I will give you this, that blog post write-up could have been more thorough. It says “real men weep” but is that no different than an ideology that says a person’s sense of self determines manhood? There is one distinction you can make. Mourning the loss of a loved one happens for a season. But what is a sense of personal identity conditioned on? It may or may not be conditioned on a biological defect. Some say it happens before the child can even speak, but is that provable? Are small children even aware of such distinction? Weeping on the other hand seems to be conditioned on how much you loved someone. Now maybe I struggle to weep and I don’t feel like weeping. But maybe more of the point is don’t feel like you have to hide your weeping.

 

[Ken-1122]

No, that's not what dictionaries do. Learn about dictionaries.

A dictionary is a book that lists words and gives their meanings. I believe words should be used according to their meaning; thus dictionaries lists words how they ought to be used.
dictionary - Yahoo Search Results

What a silly non-sequitur. Inter-subjectivity is a thing which is still completely subjective. Look it up.

Oh so you can just go around making empty claims, and I’m supposed to look it up in order to prove you right? No; you make the claim, you look it up.

You gotta be kidding me. Go back to your post, look at the snippet you quoted just before asking this question. There is the explicit answer to this question.

I did go back and you are still wrong. Just another example of you contradicting yourself

Context has nothing to do with it.

No; context has everything to do with it, because I made the case they were using the term out of context.

You've defended their usage of "man" in a completely subjective manner, ergo you've apologized for their usage of "man" in a completely subjective manner.

Again I’ve defended nothing. You asked a question about their use of the word, I answered your question and then pointed out they were using the word out of context. Again; I’ve apologized for nothing.

 

[Ken-1122]

That's not how language works. That's not how communication works. I tell you how I am using a word so that you understand the concept I'm trying to convey. You don't tell me what I mean when I use a word.

I tell you what you SHOULD mean when you use a word if you are using that word out of context.

We segregate sports based on biological sex, not on gender.

Then how did we get biological men competing against biological women in some sports?

 

[MehGuy]

I assumed it would matter, because earlier you pointed out that Promise Keepers (a Christian organization) is no different in its teaching than what transgenderism teaches. I will give you this, that blog post write-up could have been more thorough. It says “real men weep” but is that no different than an ideology that says a person’s sense of self determines manhood? There is one distinction you can make. Mourning the loss of a loved one happens for a season. But what is a sense of personal identity conditioned on? It may or may not be conditioned on a biological defect. Some say it happens before the child can even speak, but is that provable? Are small children even aware of such distinction? Weeping on the other hand seems to be conditioned on how much you loved someone. Now maybe I struggle to weep and I don’t feel like weeping. But maybe more of the point is don’t feel like you have to hide your weeping.

I'd say masculinity allows weeping; the key is only during appropriate times. For instance, it is not masculine to weep and lose control of your emotions when you're supposed to be protecting women and children. A man can weep after the fact, when there is nothing more he can do to protect. You can even make an argument that a man who isn't afraid to show his emotions (at the appropriate times) is more masculine and stronger compared to the man who isn't willing to ever show them no matter the context.

There is a logic to masculinity and femininity, it isn't something entirely subjective. Certainly not "anything you want it to be" as I've seen some progressive frivolously claim. Look at how they behave, not what they say. A parental (masculine) childlike (feminine) is still present in progressive circles. There is nothing remarkable about progressives, once you get past the smoke and mirrors.

Keep in mind, I think men and women should be able to do what they want. I don't care about gender roles. It's just not masculine to cry during times of action. At least not regarding how human gender evolved. I for instance, eschew my gender expectations all the time... much to the anger of both conservatives and progressives, lol. I don't view myself as a particularly masculine person for a reason.

 

[Moral Orel]

You tell me how you use a word.
Frank tells me how he uses that word.
Becky tells me how she uses that word.
Brent tells me how he uses that word.
Hakim tells me how he uses that word.
Moisha tells me how she uses that word.

That's not how language works, either.

Yes, it is. Some words are subjective and they differ from individual to individual. You already use words like that every day.

 

[Moral Orel]

A dictionary is a book that lists words and gives their meanings. I believe words should be used according to their meaning; thus dictionaries lists words how they ought to be used.
dictionary - Yahoo Search Results

Descriptive vs Prescriptive

Oh so you can just go around making empty claims, and I’m supposed to look it up in order to prove you right? No; you make the claim, you look it up.

Intersubjective

I did go back and you are still wrong. Just another example of you contradicting yourself

You asked why I use the dictionary, that quote explains why I use the dictionary. You are at a point in this argument that you are so wrong that you're losing control.

Again I’ve defended nothing. You asked a question about their use of the word, I answered your question and then pointed out they were using the word out of context. Again; I’ve apologized for nothing.

You literally just described apologizing for what they wrote against what I said doing that means.

You've already lost that there is a distinction between sex and gender. That's it. It's over. You're done.

 

[Moral Orel]

I tell you what you SHOULD mean when you use a word if you are using that word out of context.

No, you can only tell me what you personally want me to mean when I use a word.

Then how did we get biological men competing against biological women in some sports?

Because the arguments you and @RDKirk and the general anti-trans crowd make are bad. Ya'll aren't interested in sound arguments. Ya'll just want to feel right.

 

[Moral Orel]

I assumed it would matter, because earlier you pointed out that Promise Keepers (a Christian organization) is no different in its teaching than what transgenderism teaches.

I didn't say it's no different. I said that what is similar is that both treat biological sex and gender as distinct concepts.

 

[zippy2006]

For the most part, I'd go with the first. Basically my own subjective expectations of what a guy or gal looks like. Let's be honest, even putting the trans topic aside, it can be ambiguous at times. In those cases the person in question can correct me. And yes, "ambiguous" is subjective as well, but I think that by generally following these guidelines I'm not going to upset anyone minding their own business.

That means I won't be learning any new pronouns. I won't be using "they" as a singular. If you look like Al Borland, I'm not calling you "she". I don't know if that last one is even an actual trans thing, or if that's just a troll move, but I know it happens sometimes.

Okay, fair enough. I agree with this.

 

[Moral Orel]

Okay, fair enough. I agree with this.

Finally, a reasonable person!

 

[RDKirk]

Yes, it is. Some words are subjective and they differ from individual to individual. You already use words like that every day.

That's Humpty Dumpty logic.

'There's glory for you!' [Humpty Dumpty said]

'I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't — till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

 

[RDKirk]

No, you can only tell me what you personally want me to mean when I use a word.

Because the arguments you and @RDKirk and the general anti-trans crowd make are bad. Ya'll aren't interested in sound arguments. Ya'll just want to feel right.

You don't want to feel right?

The whole trans controversy is over "feelings," not sound arguments.

Particularly when people are making up their own meanings of words, as you do.

 

[Moral Orel]

That's Humpty Dumpty logic.

It's a fact about language.

How "tall" does a person have to be for you to say that they are "tall"? Will that be the same amount of inches as me? Can one of us be correct and the other be wrong?

If you don't understand the facts behind human language, how in the world do you intend to argue about how people use it?

 

[Moral Orel]

Particularly when people are making up their own meanings of words, as you do.

I didn't make anything up. I already demonstrated that using "man" and "woman" in a subjective manner, with attributes made up by the individual, is common language outside of the trans or woke community.

 

[didactics]

I didn't say it's no different. I said that what is similar is that both treat biological sex and gender as distinct concepts.

I do not recommend Promise Keepers as a Christian organization; they emphasis male togetherness, as a formalized movement. Also, I do not like how their statement of faith reads regarding man — “5. We believe that man was created in the image of God…” It would have been nice to include the words ‘both male and female.’ So yeah, in a sense they are likened to trans ideology, but only in the sense of lacking robust theology.

 

[Ken-1122]

Descriptive vs Prescriptive

I was giving my opinion on he issue; that’s why I said I believe words should be used according to their meaning. Now if you’re okay with people having different meanings for the same word, that’s fine but that’s not my view.

Intersubjective

You asked why I use the dictionary, that quote explains why I use the dictionary. You are at a point in this argument that you are so wrong that you're losing control.

It doesn’t matter, at first you use the dictionary definition to make your point, then a few posts later you say “Dictionaries are not authorities of word usage”. So which is it? Are you gonna dismiss your previous claim when you used the dictionary to make your case? Or are you gonna ignore your claim that dictionaries are not the authorities of word usage? You can’t have it both ways bruh!

You literally just described apologizing for what they wrote against what I said doing that means.

To say someone is using words out of context is not apologizing.

No, you can only tell me what you personally want me to mean when I use a word.

Same thing.

Because the arguments you and @RDKirk and the general anti-trans crowd make are bad. Ya'll aren't interested in sound arguments. Ya'll just want to feel right.

You’ve got to be kidding me! You gonna claim the only reason they fight to have biological male swimmers, runners, and fighters competing against biological female swimmers, runners, and fighters is because of the people who disagree with them? That if people like me and others did not disagree with them, they would not fight to have biological males compete against biological females? C’mon Moral One; is this the best you can do? You're better than this! The reality is, they do not want sports separated by biology, they want sports separated by gender, and they are redefining gender to have nothing to do with biology. IOW you are wrong.

 

[Moral Orel]

I was giving my opinion on he issue; that’s why I said I believe words should be used according to their meaning. Now if you’re okay with people having different meanings for the same word, that’s fine but that’s not my view.

Your view is wrong, objectively. Humans literally just made language up. We assigned concepts to sounds and squiggles. That's what language is. It changes all the time. Trans people didn't start using "man" and "woman" in nebulous, subjective ways. They continued to use "man" and "woman" in nebulous subjective ways the same way most people do from time to time.

It doesn’t matter, at first you use the dictionary definition to make your point, then a few posts later you say “Dictionaries are not authorities of word usage”. So which is it? Are you gonna dismiss your previous claim when you used the dictionary to make your case? Or are you gonna ignore your claim that dictionaries are not the authorities of word usage? You can’t have it both ways bruh!

It still isn't an authority, and I never claimed it was. The dictionary is a tie breaker. If you and I disagree on how to use a word, the dictionary tells us how people use the word, and we go with common usage so that our ideas are understood. That's it. If you want to use the word "bad" to mean "red", you can't be incorrect because language is subjective. But if you don't use words the same way they are commonly used no one will know what you're talking about.

People commonly attribute subjective attributes to "man" and "woman" so we both already understand the concept that "sex" is distinct from "gender". This has been going on a long time before trans people entered the scene.

Same thing.

So you just want me to be incapable of explaining or discussing some concepts with you. That's been pretty clear, thanks for admitting it.

You’ve got to be kidding me! You gonna claim the only reason they fight to have biological male swimmers, runners, and fighters competing against biological female swimmers, runners, and fighters is because of the people who disagree with them?

I never said anything of the sort.

That if people like me and others did not disagree with them, they would not fight to have biological males compete against biological females?

I never said anything of the sort.

I don't know how to respond to questions you pull whole-cloth out of your imagination.

The reality is, they do not want sports separated by biology, they want sports separated by gender, and they are redefining gender to have nothing to do with biology. IOW you are wrong.

No one is redefining gender. I already demonstrated, and you agreed, that there is a distinction between the concepts of "sex" and "gender". It has not been redefined. Stop lying.

Once you stop lying about the truth you already acknowledged, then you can discuss whether it's better to segregate sports based on sex or gender.